Anti-shooting list

[mrcamp1990]

Hi community, what's up?

I have a though question for you. A friend of mine is playing the competitive typical SCE vanguard list. However i tryied twice to face him with two destruction lists. One with BCR and one with BIG W. In both cases i put the "Plate of perfect protection" on my general. 

Unfortunately in both cases I couldn't do anything. If I set up too far I had objectives and charges more difficult to reach, and if I set up close and i attemp to charge he uses the aetherwings ability to shield. Seems he counters me.

Do you have some suggestion in order to face this list? Which weaknesses should I exploit?

Edited January 25, 2021 by mrcamp1990

[zilberfrid]

Is it possible to counter his Aetherwings? Perhaps with some allies and preferably in the Magic phase, they are rather squishy.

[mrcamp1990]

First of all thank you for the reply.

I will try to go more in deep of my issues. The problem is not only the aetherwings. I mean if I setup close to the enemy territory with one drops he takes the turn and he shot my champions. If i try to set up close to the edge of the battlefield and maybe try to use the hand of gork, then he uses aetherwings to counter my charges. The shooting of BCR is not enough to destroy all these aetherwings. 
Furthermore if i focuse the aetherwings, it means that he still have his Vanguard Raptor still alive.

[PlasticCraic]

@mrcamp1990 30x Arrow Boys in Big Waaagh could come in very useful in this matchup.  You can cast their buff spells from the backboard (out of shooting range) because they have 24" casting range.  So you can set them up aggressively and still keep your Heroes safe.

Most important spell will probably be Hand of Gork to get them in range, so buff the casting on that one.  

They force a decent volume of saves with no rend, which should be enough to pop the Aetherwings given that they don't have a save.  They are not good in combat, but should force the odd save here and there if you need to charge in and finish off a unit of birds (or if they move into combat with you).   It's even worth charging the Longstrikes if you can: Arrow Boys are +2 to charge natively and will kill the odd model on a 4+ save, and force them to shoot into your pile of wounds for a turn or two.  Then you can move up your combat units for the killing blow.

You'll need access to Mighty Destroyers (via the Ironfist Batallion or Brutish Cunning CT) to get your hammer units up into threat range on the turn you shoot off the birds.

Within Ogors, have you considered taking Yhetees?  They can get up the field quickly (run 15" then pile in 6"), then you can blow up the birds with one unit, leaving the second unit free for its 6" pile in.  Winterbite could be worth a try in this case, for the -1 to be hit and the extra movement on Yhetees.

Gorgers are another one to look at: you can start them off the board (= safe from shooting), then they can come on 9" away and hopefully blow up the birds, after which it's game on.  They'll be on a 9" charge but they do reroll that natively, you could even invest in Cogs for the matchup (will help you start off far away then get up the board quickly).

Finally, remember that the Longstrikes only get the +6" range in the Shooting phase, not the Hero phase.  A lot of people do that wrong.  You can deploy 24.1" away and only take Shooting phase damage.

Edited January 27, 2021 by PlasticCraic

[Dankboss]

Gloomspite Gitz' Madcap Shaman has a spell that gives -1 to hit from shooting attacks, and it affects friendly units, not keyworded. Might be worth allying in for 80 points.

[Beastmaster]

10 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

@mrcamp1990 30x Arrow Boys in Big Waaagh could come in very useful in this matchup.  You can cast their buff spells from the backboard (out of shooting range) because they have 24" casting range.  So you can set them up aggressively and still keep your Heroes safe.

Most important spell will probably be Hand of Gork to get them in range, so buff the casting on that one.  

They force a decent volume of saves with no rend, which should be enough to pop the Aetherwings given that they don't have a save.  They are not good in combat, but should force the odd save here and there if you need to charge in and finish off a unit of birds (or if they move into combat with you).   It's even worth charging the Longstrikes if you can: Arrow Boys are +2 to charge natively and will kill the odd model on a 4+ save, and force them to shoot into your pile of wounds for a turn or two.  Then you can move up your combat units for the killing blow.

You'll need access to Mighty Destroyers (via the Ironfist Batallion or Brutish Cunning CT) to get your hammer units up into threat range on the turn you shoot off the birds.

Within Ogors, have you considered taking Yhetees?  They can get up the field quickly (run 15" then pile in 6"), then you can blow up the birds with one unit, leaving the second unit free for its 6" pile in.  Winterbite could be worth a try in this case, for the -1 to be hit and the extra movement on Yhetees.

Gorgers are another one to look at: you can start them off the board (= safe from shooting), then they can come on 9" away and hopefully blow up the birds, after which it's game on.  They'll be on a 9" charge but they do reroll that natively, you could even invest in Cogs for the matchup (will help you start off far away then get up the board quickly).

Finally, remember that the Longstrikes only get the +6" range in the Shooting phase, not the Hero phase.  A lot of people do that wrong.  You can deploy 24.1" away and only take Shooting phase damage.

A frostsaber/hunter ambush can do the same as the gorgers, but better for a higher investment. And they mix well with Winterbite.

Mournfangs can also be fast and painful for shooters.

[mrcamp1990]

13 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

@mrcamp1990 30x Arrow Boys in Big Waaagh could come in very useful in this matchup.  You can cast their buff spells from the backboard (out of shooting range) because they have 24" casting range.  So you can set them up aggressively and still keep your Heroes safe.

Most important spell will probably be Hand of Gork to get them in range, so buff the casting on that one.  

They force a decent volume of saves with no rend, which should be enough to pop the Aetherwings given that they don't have a save.  They are not good in combat, but should force the odd save here and there if you need to charge in and finish off a unit of birds (or if they move into combat with you).   It's even worth charging the Longstrikes if you can: Arrow Boys are +2 to charge natively and will kill the odd model on a 4+ save, and force them to shoot into your pile of wounds for a turn or two.  Then you can move up your combat units for the killing blow.

You'll need access to Mighty Destroyers (via the Ironfist Batallion or Brutish Cunning CT) to get your hammer units up into threat range on the turn you shoot off the birds.

Within Ogors, have you considered taking Yhetees?  They can get up the field quickly (run 15" then pile in 6"), then you can blow up the birds with one unit, leaving the second unit free for its 6" pile in.  Winterbite could be worth a try in this case, for the -1 to be hit and the extra movement on Yhetees.

Gorgers are another one to look at: you can start them off the board (= safe from shooting), then they can come on 9" away and hopefully blow up the birds, after which it's game on.  They'll be on a 9" charge but they do reroll that natively, you could even invest in Cogs for the matchup (will help you start off far away then get up the board quickly).

Finally, remember that the Longstrikes only get the +6" range in the Shooting phase, not the Hero phase.  A lot of people do that wrong.  You can deploy 24.1" away and only take Shooting phase damage.

Thank you so much @PlasticCraic  for your deep explaination. I'm surely trying to make some lists with your suggestions and then i will try give you a feedback. Unfortunately we wrongly applied the rule of Longstrikes since they were shooting 30'' also in the hero phase.

Are you sure about hand of gork? Because it's written that only IJ units could benefit from it.

Edited January 27, 2021 by mrcamp1990

[mrcamp1990]

7 hours ago, Dankboss said:

Gloomspite Gitz' Madcap Shaman has a spell that gives -1 to hit from shooting attacks, and it affects friendly units, not keyworded. Might be worth allying in for 80 points.

@Dankboss cool, i'll try to figure it out

[mrcamp1990]

3 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

A frostsaber/hunter ambush can do the same as the gorgers, but better for a higher investment. And they mix well with Winterbite.

Mournfangs can also be fast and painful for shooters.

@Beastmaster and maybe i could exploit the command ability of my Frostlord which allows BCR to reroll charges

[PlasticCraic]

4 hours ago, mrcamp1990 said:

Are you sure about hand of gork? Because it's written that only IJ units could benefit from it.

Sorry, I meant Breath of Gorkamorka (Bonesplitterz movement spell - used to be called Hand of Gork in the old book!)

[PlasticCraic]

7 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

A frostsaber/hunter ambush can do the same as the gorgers, but better for a higher investment. And they mix well with Winterbite.

Mournfangs can also be fast and painful for shooters.

Yep that's fair.  I also like the option to bring the Hunter down near the Mawpot mid game for some healing if needs be.

[PlasticCraic]

Another idea (and it would take a bit of set up) would to move up one of your Stonehorns aggressively, with the others tucked a little further back.  At the start of the charge phase, the Stormcast budgies move into the one that's up front to block it from charging.

Your second and third Stonehorns would then charge into the budgies and hopefully charge them off the table (you can soften them up with Blood Vultures first).  That opens up your first Stonehorn to charge into whatever he wants.  If you do this in Bloodgullets, the first two Stonehorns can pile in 6" (even if there's no enemy nearby, because they completed a charge earlier that turn) so with their 2" melee reach, hopefully they'll get some juice too.

Key thing here is managing where the budgies can move.  You'll need to position your second wave Stonehorns far enough back so that the birds can't tag them all, but close enough up that you can countercharge them (Old Granitetooth Mount Trait and / or the Frostlord CA will help here).  There's a risk / reward element that if he hits a big move he might tag multiple Stonehorns, but with one up front and the others either side you should be able to position to have at least one free. 

Also you'll need to see where the Aetherwings are because the more units he has, the harder it is to charge them all off, and ideally you only want to deal with one unit (6 wounds).  If you head in down one flank you probably can't stop him rolling the 2D6 on his other Wings entirely, but you can put him in a position where he's the one praying for miracles and not you.

Also 3 Stonehorns is obviously just an example of what to commit forward, you could bring more / different units but you really want the Mortals happening on 4+ as much as possible 😁

[mrcamp1990]

I really thank you all for the support. I tryied several combination of your suggestions and i figured out that the best solution for my game style is to use the sabres/hunter hambus. That was an epic win and a great game. Thank you guys. And i am happy because BCR CAN play against a shooting army.

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by mrcamp1990