Parting Shot (seraphon)

[ACBelMutie]

The rule says:

Page 65 – Fangs of Sotek, Parting Shot
Change the rule to:
‘You can use this command ability when an enemy  unit ends a charge move within 3" of a friendly Fangs of Sotek unit from the Skinks or Chameleon Skinks warscroll that is  wholly within 18" of a friendly Fangs of Sotek Hero. If you do so, that unit can shoot. After you have resolved all of that unit’s shooting attacks, roll a dice. On a 4+, that unit must retreat but cannot run. A unit cannot benefit from this command ability more than once per phase.’

The question is. If I charge a unit of skins with idoneyh and my opponent uses the command ability, then he shoots and at 4+ he retreats. If i put only 1 miniature at 0,5" during the charge and the other ones at 3.1", and then he kills 1 miniature (i retire the closest one), can he still retrear with the skins unit even if he isn't in combat because I retired the miniature which charged? Because I can still pile in 3" after that. 

The problem is about the correct secuence. 

1 - Attack, retreat at 4+ and finally retire miniatures.

2 - Attack, retire miniatures and finally retreat at 4+ if there are still miniatures at 3" or less (can't retreat if you are not in combat).

What's the correct order, 1 or 2?

Greetings

Edited January 24, 2021 by ACBelMutie

[Gistradagis]

I'd argue that it can still move, as the ruling simply says they must retreat, which is a type of move that's only really restricted by the standard "can't end within 3" of enemy units." Even if it's no longer a retreat per se, as there are no enemy units within 3", the Parting Shot ability nevertheless says you must make the movement, so it'll happen even if the normal condition for it (if it was the Movement Phase) wouldn't apply.

[Gistradagis]

26 minutes ago, ACBelMutie said:

I talked about this with a friend. However, can you retrear if you aren't at 3" or less fron another unit? My opinion is No, because you can't retrear if you aren't in combat, doesn't it?

Greetings 

I'd argue that yes, you can. The funny thing is, reading the wording for Retreat, it doesn't state a real requirement, just a categorization (i.e. if you make a normal move and were in melee range, then that move is considered a retreat). So since Parting Shot simply states "you must retreat," the only requirement to comply with the rules is "If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units."

[ACBelMutie]

No answer? I'm very interested about this question because it could be a good tip to fight against Seraphon but I don't want to cheat my mates.

Greetings

[ACBelMutie]

8 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

I'd argue that it can still move, as the ruling simply says they must retreat, which is a type of move that's only really restricted by the standard "can't end within 3" of enemy units." Even if it's no longer a retreat per se, as there are no enemy units within 3", the Parting Shot ability nevertheless says you must make the movement, so it'll happen even if the normal condition for it (if it was the Movement Phase) wouldn't apply.

I talked about this with a friend. However, can you retrear if you aren't at 3" or less fron another unit? My opinion is No, because you can't retrear if you aren't in combat, doesn't it?

Greetings 

[ACBelMutie]

1 hour ago, Gistradagis said:

I'd argue that yes, you can. The funny thing is, reading the wording for Retreat, it doesn't state a real requirement, just a categorization (i.e. if you make a normal move and were in melee range, then that move is considered a retreat). So since Parting Shot simply states "you must retreat," the only requirement to comply with the rules is "If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units."

That's correct. So they can retrear anyway. Thanks for the answer! 

Greetings

[Ningrael]

I am reading the rules and I see it differently.

The correct sequence is the first one you pose:

1: spend the CP

2: resolve all of that unit’s shooting attacks (to hit, to wound, to save, calculate damage) 

3: On a 4+, that unit must retreat but cannot run

4: Assign wounds and remove miniatures

 

The rule was designed like this, so that if you surround the unit, it cannot flee, no matter how much you kill.

[red_moo]

Hey!

There are two main  points here. First is that the wound allocation comes after "resolving" the attacks. From rules that would be this part: "ALLOCATING WOUNDS Once all of a unit’s attacks have been resolved, add up the damage that was inflicted. The player commanding the target unit must then allocate a number of wounds to the target unit equal to the damage that was inflicted." The abilties always override the general rules, so in this case the command ability needs to be resolved first before the sequence continues. So what the guy above explained.

But I wanted to point out the second thing that is faulty in your question. If the seraphon player fails the 4+ roll (or if it worked like your first option) and you do remove the eel in front and the rest are 3.1" away, you effectively removed your unit from combat and can't pile in as the unit is no longer in combat!! Same as when unit A fights unit B and C. After B fights, the A player removes the models from unit A so the unit C is 3+" away from unit A. C can not pile in and fight.

Edited February 15, 2021 by red_moo

[GrimDork]

8 hours ago, red_moo said:

But I wanted to point out the second thing that is faulty in your question. If the seraphon player fails the 4+ roll (or if it worked like your first option) and you do remove the eel in front and the rest are 3.1" away, you effectively removed your unit from combat and can't pile in as the unit is no longer in combat!! Same as when unit A fights unit B and C. After B fights, the A player removes the models from unit A so the unit C is 3+" away from unit A. C can not pile in and fight.

Unless unit C made a charge move that turn, in which case it can still make a pile in move, even if there are no enemies within 3”.

[red_moo]

15 hours ago, GrimDork said:

Unless unit C made a charge move that turn, in which case it can still make a pile in move, even if there are no enemies within 3”.

Omg you are right. Wow, tunnel viewed on the 3" rule there... Thanks!  

[Joseph Mackay]

On 1/27/2021 at 6:54 AM, Ningrael said:

I am reading the rules and I see it differently.

The correct sequence is the first one you pose:

1: spend the CP

2: resolve all of that unit’s shooting attacks (to hit, to wound, to save, calculate damage) 

3: On a 4+, that unit must retreat but cannot run

4: Assign wounds and remove miniatures

 

The rule was designed like this, so that if you surround the unit, it cannot flee, no matter how much you kill.

This is wrong, resolving the damage (allocation of wounds) is still part of the ‘attack sequence’ and so the shooting attacks haven’t been ‘resolved’ until after the damage is applied, then the skinks roll to see if they can retreat or not

[Ningrael]

16 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

This is wrong, resolving the damage (allocation of wounds) is still part of the ‘attack sequence’ and so the shooting attacks haven’t been ‘resolved’ until after the damage is applied, then the skinks roll to see if they can retreat or not

Read the attacks section, look at the chart and you will see that the attack sequence ends when you determine the damage.

 

Assigning damage and removing thumbnails is the next step. After solving the attack.

 

 

First paragraph of alocating wounds