Gamesworkshop's Evolving Release Strategy

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

Mostly unrelated but I'm really curious to know how the Keeper of Secrets sold compared to the rest of the release. It's a great model in its own right but the number of people running 3 or 4 of them was pretty high on the top tables.

It is a small sample size admittedly but I was at a tournament that allowed the WD battalion during the peak of multiple keepers and there were at least 5 or 6 Slaanesh players running that list and regularly throwing 4+ on the table.  (In my head-to-head I believe my opponent got 5 on table...). But for the most part what you saw was one or two GW KoS and then tons of proxies. Since that experience haven’t been convinced by the thesis that GW fully benefits when they create an OP situation like that as at those prices the incentives to look elsewhere get high.  The exception that I’ve seen is BCR where the SC kit is such a bargain that the all Stonehorns all the time lists do seem to be fully GW.

[Bosskelot]

6 hours ago, Yondaime said:

Sorry but i doubt it, fireslayer was and actually is one of the top tier army, and meta chasers bought a lot of them

I agree taht some armyes are REALLY old (stormcast 2018, khorne, sylvaneth, some death etc) but in the last years GW release half made tomes and complete them the year after.

 

lumineth and slaneesh have hilariusly poor unit choose

The competitive scene is a miniscule aspect of the game. A bunch of tourney players investing in the army basically means nothing, especially as with many of GW's games even the competitive players collect armies because they like them, not solely because they're powerful. Even looking through tournament data Fyreslayers have a minimal footprint in terms of actual numbers.

[Icarion]

39 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

The competitive scene is a miniscule aspect of the game. A bunch of tourney players investing in the army basically means nothing, especially as with many of GW's games even the competitive players collect armies because they like them, not solely because they're powerful. Even looking through tournament data Fyreslayers have a minimal footprint in terms of actual numbers.

Totally agree. For more proof of this, last year GW had record shattering profits. This was in a year with pretty much no tournaments, or organized gaming due to covid. 

Competitive players are barely a drop of water in the ocean of GW's profits. 

[Sleboda]

On 1/18/2021 at 5:40 PM, Athrawes said:

also means going forward it will be difficult to judge whether "that's it", whether everything we get teased for a new faction/release is everything players will be getting, or whether there is more in the pipeline short/long term.

For me this will impact my Day 1 purchases and my purchase of the Battletomes and War scrolls.

In the past, I would jump in initially with all the new kits, in quantity, for the army as well as the cards and book. If it was a faction I really was into, I'd even get the limited edition book.

I did this secure in the knowledge that my book and cards would be good for a few years - three at least.  I made some concessions about rapid book replacements since it seemed to me that GW was learning as they went on the books, which meant quicker replacements.

Now there's little room to be that understanding. The new Slaanesh book is a glaring red flag for me, as it *appears* to be a deliberate double sale. First we got what turns out to be half the book at full cost, which was followed about 30 seconds later with the full book (and cards) selling us the full army, half of which we juuuuuust paid for already ready, making the second book only half new for full price ... and again it doesn't seem to be by happenstance, but rather a plan.

 

This style of release has me very gunshy on getting new books, or even models for a new army, until I wait a year to see if I'm being tricked into paying twice or buying models I'd skip if I had the full picture.

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Sleboda
Typos

[Overread]

I'm far less "gun shy" because I've been following GW for a long time and fast turn arounds on armies are traditionally rare things. Heck the last time they did it was with Chaos and that book was released both as a codex and as a separate upgrade book for cheap. We don't know if this new Slaanesh book is just adding new models or if its also reworking a huge portion of the army core as well and even core mechanics in advance of a 3.0 release. We don't know if the changes will be freely summarised and distributed (ergo core remains the same, GW adds a few battalions, points and warscroll stats). 

But in general really big additions this fast are super rare, which is why I'm more excited by it because normally I'd be expecting this update in another 3-4 years. OR drip fed out over that time. Instead I'm getting models FAR sooner. 

 

 

I do have issue with GW's rather fast book rotations that they are going for, yet at the same time I recall the dark days of waiting years and never knowing when or even if you'd get a new book. 

[LuminethMage]

For me it depends. Generally, I'm of the same opinion like @Overread, I'd rather have several smaller releases, even if this means I have to buy more books, then not getting anything new for a long time. It also depends on how it's done.

I think buying the Lumineth BT was worthwhile on it's on. There is a lot of new content in it (all fresh background lore), and I got a playable army. If they released another 8, 9 kits with a new BT in a few months, I wouldn't mind if there was something more in it than just the new rules. For example more details about the other Lumineth nations in Hysh. I'd prefer that style over what we had in Warhammer Fantasy where you waited for years for a new army book and then 90% of it was "just" new updated rules. If they were to just release a new battletome where all the lore part is the same, I'd be far less enthusiastic about it. Still, I think getting more, smaller updates every year or so is preferably to having to wait for many years until they might upgrade your army in one big swoop. 

I really think this approach has more advantages than disadvantages. Especially as long as you still can buy the battletomes in digital form, it's not that much of an expense, even if you are only interested in the new rules. 

And then there is the possibility that there is no new release strategy at all. Slaanesh and Lumineth might just have fit well with where they wanted to go with the story anyway, and so they took the opportunity to release those two factions like that (and LRL might "just" get 4 kits within a Broken Realms book). They didn't do the same thing for DoK or Idoneth. 

[Skreech Verminking]

12 hours ago, Kramer said:

Haha I doubt that a new model is the solution in this specific case. Khorne has the biggest. baddest, most point expensive and nicest looking centrepiece model but it doesn’t make them scary on the tabletop 😂

 

Yeah, but at least it fears witch elves.

(saw how this 1200points model) got destroyed by a 10women unit of witches.

and it was hilarious.

[Greybeard86]

11 hours ago, Sleboda said:

This style of release has me very gunshy on getting new books, or even models for a new army, until I wait a year to see if I'm being tricked into paying twice or buying models I'd skip if I had the full picture.

 

There is very little reason to buy those books anyway. Between battlescribe, people shoving pdfs into your hands, and online resources you can access all the materials easily.

I did really like having my books back in the day, and reading the little funny stories on the sides. They are good at hype building. But nowadays I can get an inifite amount of such things in a lexicanum or other resources, so I do not really need the books for that.

The more they go in the direction of book bloat, the more people won't be caring about them at all. Same thing happened with FW; some ranges were expensive and of dubious quality, both rules and model wise, and they discontinued models constantly and similar shenannigans. Result? Massive recast market for forgeworld, several top tourney players admitting they simply 3d print.

For all they might want stores and hobby gatherings to police the tables for GW only models, no 3d printed, oficial rule books in your hands only, the truth is that it is a losing battle.  This is not like DLCs or microtrans that can be enforced via digital control.

Of course, the staggered released of models such as battleline options might catch people off guard. Specially since often it is unclear whether a new release is planned soon after. But that's only for those who build to play heavily, and I wonder what fraction of the costumer base that is.

[EMMachine]

2 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

But nowadays I can get an inifite amount of such things in a lexicanum or other resources, so I do not really need the books for that.

The problem with this sentence is, that if everyone thinks like this you will not have something like lexicanum because nobody could write Articles for it (its basicly a form of Hivemind). It needs people that buy the books and bring the lore together in a short way so you can consume it.

[Greybeard86]

21 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

The problem with this sentence is, that if everyone thinks like this you will not have something like lexicanum because nobody could write Articles for it (its basicly a form of Hivemind). It needs people that buy the books and bring the lore together in a short way so you can consume it.

I understand what you mean, but note that a lot of the lore comes from places other than rulebooks. For example, the black library. And those other sources are not perishable cash grabs like the rule books.

The rule books prey on a captive audience, even if they are crabby people will buy them. Novels need to sell on their own merit.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Greybeard86

[stratigo]

I will always take an opportunity to say that GW’s rules publishing policies are ass backwards from an era before the internet and when new books were spaced out for five years tween replacements. They do not work for modern era of constant releases where one army needs four to six books to keep playing in roughly three year cycles. If you play multiple armies or systems you can easily start dumping a literal grand on books over a couple years. It’s wrong, and the reason people honestly aren’t fully overwhelmed is because of piracy. 

[Saxon]

On 1/22/2021 at 4:26 AM, MitGas said:

Fully agreed but I keep repeating myself in here - IJ desperately need more units, especially because it's not feasible to mix them with Bonesplitterz due to rules (and fluff too AFAIK)... plus Or(ru)ks are more popular than grots all in all, so they should have a similarly big roster. Right now, these first few AoS armies (minus Khorne) feel pretty half-a ssed IMO. But I guess there's a good chance they'll get expanded upon, I just hope it's sooner than later.

oh and Tzeentch Mortals/Arcanites apart from the Marauder equivalent.., do those soon too pretty please. Just while I'm wishing for things... 

I agree with this. Brutes and Goregruntaz are cool models but the variety you can have is so limited so it became easy to figure them out because the lists lacked variety. 

[Siegfried VII]

I'm really struggling to understand why people complain about us getting new battletomes sooner.. This is a really expensive hobby and quite frankly 35 more euros for updated rules/lore every other year is really a drop in the ocean in my opinion... 

[Overread]

6 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I'm really struggling to understand why people complain about us getting new battletomes sooner.. This is a really expensive hobby and quite frankly 35 more euros for updated rules/lore every other year is really a drop in the ocean in my opinion... 

I think its worse right now because over the last year many of us have been unable to properly game at all. So for very new tomes (Slaanesh) and for those who bought into armies in the last year or so; the tomes have sat mostly unused for games. People have been able to buy and build and paint but not really game properly in many regions. 

So it feels more like a worthless purchase because we've not had the fun out of them in the game area. 

 

My view is that so long as a fast update comes with a chunky change I'm ok with it. Slaanesh getting this new Battletome so soon after the first is fine for me because they are near doubling the range of models in the army. They are giving a huge update to the form and function of the army in one big go so I'm ok with a faster turn around because it means I'm getting a huge chunk of new models to play with. I also know that GW is not going to do this again in 1 year, if anything Slaanesh will likely now slip to the back and might not get anything outside of a token model or warcry warband for several years now. 

 

 

That said I think those who have one army and buy into Generals Handbooks feel it more so as well; they've 1 army but they need 2 books to run it; 3 if there's a campaign book like Morathi. That starts to become a lot of paperwork for running 1 force. Those who tend to complain less can sometimes do so because they are in the middle - they've enough armies that campaign and general books update several of their forces at once; but not so many that they feel overburdened with battletome purchases. Then there's collectors/competitive players who want to own every book and they really feel the pressure of an accelerated release rate - but they aren't GW's target market as such - they are an exception to the norm. 

[Siegfried VII]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

I think its worse right now because over the last year many of us have been unable to properly game at all. So for very new tomes (Slaanesh) and for those who bought into armies in the last year or so; the tomes have sat mostly unused for games. People have been able to buy and build and paint but not really game properly in many regions. 

So it feels more like a worthless purchase because we've not had the fun out of them in the game area. 

My view is that so long as a fast update comes with a chunky change I'm ok with it. Slaanesh getting this new Battletome so soon after the first is fine for me because they are near doubling the range of models in the army. They are giving a huge update to the form and function of the army in one big go so I'm ok with a faster turn around because it means I'm getting a huge chunk of new models to play with. I also know that GW is not going to do this again in 1 year, if anything Slaanesh will likely now slip to the back and might not get anything outside of a token model or warcry warband for several years now. 

That said I think those who have one army and buy into Generals Handbooks feel it more so as well; they've 1 army but they need 2 books to run it; 3 if there's a campaign book like Morathi. That starts to become a lot of paperwork for running 1 force. Those who tend to complain less can sometimes do so because they are in the middle - they've enough armies that campaign and general books update several of their forces at once; but not so many that they feel overburdened with battletome purchases. Then there's collectors/competitive players who want to own every book and they really feel the pressure of an accelerated release rate - but they aren't GW's target market as such - they are an exception to the norm. 

I agree with your points.  They are valid. I can see why some people may feel uneasy..

But isn't it better that our armies remain relevant to the game and expand with shiny new models? We all know that there are many instances where some units in a battletome are in bad shape and need an update.. Or the whole battletome needs a refresh to keep up.. 

Isn't ite better to get the updates? Don't we all want new models to sink our teeth in? I started playing Warhammer back in the 6th edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and I vividly remember the nightmare of having to wait 3 or 4 years to get an update on the book.. If it was good, great but if it was bad you were stuck with crappy rules for years..

Now we have a living breathing game were we get a nice stream of new things to get excited for.. Even the metagame changing is nice and keeps things fresh and interesting! And again it's not that much of an investment.. The Lumineth battletome is 32.50 euros.. with the same ammount I can get an Alarith Stonmage blister.. So for me not being able to get an extra Stonemage is really a small price to get new exciting rules and lore to have fun with!!

The reply is not directed to you as we more or less agree ut to all the guys/gals who feel bad for the quicker releases.. I wanted to give a more possitive viewpoint.. 🙂

[Overread]

I think whilst we pay for the updates some are worried that we'll end up in a time when battletomes become an annual purchase; ontop of a rule book on top of a generic ponts update book ontop of a series of campaign books. Ergo that GW pushes the concept of fast updates and printed media too far in an attempt to appease those who want faster updates; but also to generate profit. That we end up with too much budget getting devoted to short term printed material thats out of date pretty fast; whilst lore and art can't advance fast enough to keep value there. 

 

So for some its a "slippery slide" problem in that they can see things getting faster and costing a bit more and they worry about where its going; when will GW enter a steady phase and put the brakes on a bit.

 

 

I recall when codex were £12 each. That said the lore was only a few pages back then; nothing like the near half a book they get too now. They were also all black and white soft backs. So whilst the prices have gone up, I've seen volume and quality grow with that 

[Enoby]

5 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Isn't ite better to get the updates? Don't we all want new models to sink our teeth in? I started playing Warhammer back in the 6th edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and I vividly remember the nightmare of having to wait 3 or 4 years to get an update on the book.. If it was good, great but if it was bad you were stuck with crappy rules for years..

I think we all want upgrades, but not too quickly to take a more ridiculous hypothetical, let's say you play Khorne. If Khorne got a battletome with a few new heroes, you might well think that's great - and I'd agree, it's good to keep armies up to date. I'd see it as a problem if you got a second Khorne battletome with a load of new models two months later. The first battletome would have felt like a wasted purchase, and you may have bought models to fit into a battalion that no longer exists before you even got the chance to paint them.

Obviously Lumineth, Slaanesh, and DoK are nowhere near this bad. I think the question is 'how soon is too soon?' I think everyone would agree that an update a month would be confusing, messy, and unsustainable, but is a new battletome every year too quick? I think that's a point of contention.  

[Siegfried VII]

14 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I think we all want upgrades, but not too quickly to take a more ridiculous hypothetical, let's say you play Khorne. If Khorne got a battletome with a few new heroes, you might well think that's great - and I'd agree, it's good to keep armies up to date. I'd see it as a problem if you got a second Khorne battletome with a load of new models two months later. The first battletome would have felt like a wasted purchase, and you may have bought models to fit into a battalion that no longer exists before you even got the chance to paint them.

Obviously Lumineth, Slaanesh, and DoK are nowhere near this bad. I think the question is 'how soon is too soon?' I think everyone would agree that an update a month would be confusing, messy, and unsustainable, but is a new battletome every year too quick? I think that's a point of contention.  

I think so far with a few exceptions battletomes have a 2 year cycle... I believe the sweet spot is between 1,5 year the soonest and 2,5 years the latest depending on the state of the army rules-wise and the number of new models ready to be released..

[stratigo]

5 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

I'm really struggling to understand why people complain about us getting new battletomes sooner.. This is a really expensive hobby and quite frankly 35 more euros for updated rules/lore every other year is really a drop in the ocean in my opinion... 

because the rules sunset at best in 3 years, and at worst, like 6 months and you have had to buy the main rulebook, your battletome, two to three generals handbooks, a campaign book and a second campaign or supplement book in that 3 year time. Running you almost 300 dollars. Which could go into models and hobby supplies. 

 

I'd prefer spending money on models honestly, and not a book that maybe has 1 page relevant to my gameplay out of 100 pages. The value ain't there for most of these books.

[Siegfried VII]

4 hours ago, stratigo said:

because the rules sunset at best in 3 years, and at worst, like 6 months and you have had to buy the main rulebook, your battletome, two to three generals handbooks, a campaign book and a second campaign or supplement book in that 3 year time. Running you almost 300 dollars. Which could go into models and hobby supplies. 

 

I'd prefer spending money on models honestly, and not a book that maybe has 1 page relevant to my gameplay out of 100 pages. The value ain't there for most of these books.

General's handook and main rulebook have no relation with battletomes and their cycle.. Regarding 2 campaign books this is hardly the case for any army that exists. If you prefer to use the money for the painting part of the hobby good for you, but you can't have a good ruleset with additions and fixes and not have to invest some money. 

Campaign Books have also lore and advance the story.. If someone isn't interested in this part it his choice and his problem really.. If there is a book that only has one page for your army, just download it from some source or find a picture from someone who has it and that will be that

I have full armies for Stormcast Eternals, Sylvaneth, Lumineth, Cities of Sigmar, Idoneth and Daughters of Khaine and Idon't think I spend more than 100 euros per year for books.... And that is with me owning 6 full factions, so I fail to see the argument on the financial investment to be honest..

[yukishiro1]

If you are someone for whom 100 euros is a "drop in the ocean" you are definitely GW's ideal customer, but I'm not sure about the validity (or, frankly, good taste) of trying to generalize your experience. 

[zilberfrid]

24 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

good ruleset with additions and fixes

I don't consider GW very good at writing rulesets, and additions like the Ossiarch and Lumineth mess with strong points of the rulesets.

GW is good at making models and, through presence, have a lot of players.

[yukishiro1]

GW is really inconsistent at writing rules, I think that's the best way to describe it. Sometimes they put out really good stuff - Morathi, for example - and sometimes they put out stuff that amateurs would be embarrassed by. The quality control simply isn't there, for reasons that were understandable when it was five guys in somebody's basement, but that is pretty hard to fathom for a company worth billions. 

[Siegfried VII]

27 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

If you are someone for whom 100 euros is a "drop in the ocean" you are definitely GW's ideal customer, but I'm not sure about the validity (or, frankly, good taste) of trying to generalize your experience. 

I would appreciate if you didn't twist my words.. I said in a previous post that 32,5 is a drop in the ocean compared to the money the vast majority of us invest in the hobby and in miniatures and that is a fact.

100 euros is not a drop in the ocean, but if one has 6 armies and wants to have all of them up to date in terms of rules having to buy 3-4 books per year is logical.. 

As for me, my income is quite small so 100 euros is a substantial ammount of money for me.  The fact that I got 6 armies during the lifespan of Age of Sigmar and not sticking to 1 or 2 factions only is a personal choice and the consequences mine to deal with.

I have no interest in generalizing my experience nor in forcing my view to others. I am free though to express my opinion regarding this topic. You are free to dissagree and have a different opinion of course.. 😉 

[yukishiro1]

I wasn't trying to twist your words. I guess I should have said that 100 euros is three drops in the ocean (32 x 3 = 100), not one. Which to me still sounds pretty much insubstantial, though it appears based on your last post that you didn't mean it to be so. 

My point was only that paying 100 euros a year for rules is a lot, not a little. Whether you have three armies or six or whatever. 

GW's rules delivery system is hugely out of date, and doesn't make much economic sense. Printing those hardback books is hugely expensive; most of the reason we pay so much for rules is just paying for the physical printing of the books, not their content. 

Many miniature companies give away the rules for free online, realizing that their profit margins are in plastic, not in the rules. If GW started making all its rules available completely for free online (or even in the app, for the $1 a month), its profit margin would probably increase, not decrease.