Gamesworkshop's Evolving Release Strategy

[KriticalKhan]

I really don't think we should look at Slaanesh and the Lumineth as an indicator of what's to come. Both of these updates seem more like something that got delayed from the original release (for whatever reason) rather than a "new" wave. With how they talked about the Lumineth before their release and how small the roster was compared to other new armies, it seemed to a lot of people like we weren't getting the full package, and lo-and-behold, not even a year later, we're getting stuff that the battletome was talking about as if it were already there. Slaanesh just so happened to release without the mortal half every other Chaos God had, only for it to come out in a completely unprecedented kind of release for an AoS army.

If a third army gets a "second" wave I'll believe there's a pattern, but right now I don't think we have a good enough idea of what's going on to say.

[Bosskelot]

5 hours ago, Kramer said:

Any sources for that? Or just your opinion. 

Numerous statements from GW and LGS store managers and the status of stock of the army from both the US and UK. If you could physically go into a GW store right now you'd be seeing Fyreslayers boxes from the initial release weekend still on the shelves. One LGS near me doesn't even bother stocking the army anymore.

2 hours ago, Overread said:

I'd wager that the plan last year was Lumineth and Gargants in the first half of the year; Necrons and Marines in the middle then Vampires in the last part of the year up toward Christmas. The new Lumineth being shown off now are a curiosity since they aren't in the book yet its very close to when the book sold; perhaps they sold really well and GW is pleased  or perhaps the bovine designs didn't catch enough peoples imagination and GW is reacting by pushing out more diversity into the army quickly to get its popularity up.

Could be anything; might just be that "its done when its done" and those got done sooner so GW is letting them out. Lumineht certainly had perhaps the worst of it last year for launches because covid hit right at their launch time and stalled it dramatically - worse than for gargants that came all at once (well one model and book). 

I certainly don't think the Lumineth launch did particularly well, just going by Element Games still having 200+ of the "Highly Limited" army box rotting away in their warehouse. That certainly doesn't speak to a successful release. Controversial visual design, Covid delay and being right in around the 9th edition 40k launch probably crippled it.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Bosskelot

[TimM85]

Not really its basic organisational skills used in any environment. For example are these all the units for release for the next 2years for this army? Yes ok book good to go, No include in book. Then its what is oldest? is someone working on it? Why not? what is next in the narrative? and then some comparative spreadsheet of the sales of certain armies in the last 10 years, including what over flow stock needs to be shifted. Same with books etc has it been proof read by 20 plus people etc, 

If you notice these are all basic management/business checks that include no specificity and can be applied to different business models.

product-excellent

game excellent

design excellent

management/organisational skills and communication - debatable lets go with the next primaris release and model that no one wants gets 300 comments and then they bring another primaris while neglecting 15year old elder models

but then this is just an opinion from an outsider, theres many complex factors to include like how much to manufacture, to distribute etc then stock stores are holding on top which then may influence decisions and I wouldn't even want to attempt 40k because that has such a convoluted ruleset that you need an entire warehouse just to learn the rules. 

[Popisdead]

19 hours ago, Athrawes said:

This post isn't meant to complain, as again, obviously I'm happy to see these lovely models, but I'd appreciate hearing other peoples thoughts on how these new releases change the precedent of GW releases going forward. 

Well,.. GW's sins of the past are finally being rectified.  While I liked 6th, 7th, and 8th ed the editions, the release schedules, the balance issues, the pricing issues, the lack of support, all around so much of that, looking back was pretty bad. The company was 100% clueless about outreach and engagement.  

Sometimes what we really need to do is look at what state of existence we're in now vs what state we were in when we were 11 forming what would be our golden memories of experiencing this hobby.

Slaanesh's release will be the mortal half (mostly,.. missing) and perhaps fixing the Daemon half of what looks like the HoS book.  I'm not sure you want to really look at that book as a benchmark for any opinions.  

And once again,.. we are in unprecedented times (covid).  I would be surprised if anyone on these forum boards actually knew what was meant to happen.  Maybe one intern being paid to spy (nod towards The Honest Wargamer).

As a GW "fantasy" collector for 34 years I'm pretty happy overall.  I have models from 1987 in my Cities of Sigmar army, i have recycled nearly all my 2005 era Wood Elf army.  I've built up my Sylvaneth army as well.  If GW releases more for what I collect I'm pretty happy.  The releases keep coming, I'm happy painting, novels and support all around has never been this good.  Plus the local GW store is open and I can buy stuff.  

[Icarion]

2 hours ago, KriticalKhan said:

I really don't think we should look at Slaanesh and the Lumineth as an indicator of what's to come. Both of these updates seem more like something that got delayed from the original release (for whatever reason) rather than a "new" wave. With how they talked about the Lumineth before their release and how small the roster was compared to other new armies, it seemed to a lot of people like we weren't getting the full package, and lo-and-behold, not even a year later, we're getting stuff that the battletome was talking about as if it were already there. Slaanesh just so happened to release without the mortal half every other Chaos God had, only for it to come out in a completely unprecedented kind of release for an AoS army.

If a third army gets a "second" wave I'll believe there's a pattern, but right now I don't think we have a good enough idea of what's going on to say.

It true that its impossible to fully account for Covid's effect on releases,  or hang-ups behinds the scenes but still...

The Lumineth battletome was arguably meant for release (in the early box set) back in april 2020, as the army was advertised as releasing spring that year. While there is a single fluff mention detailing the new wind temple units, they are otherwise completely absent from the battletome, no warscrolls, no mention in rules, and no photographs in army shots.

Battletomes are completed months in advance of a release which means that GW knew Wind temple wasn't meant to be part of the lumineth initial release by the end of 2019, they would have had to in order to get the battletomes printed and shipped in time for their (expected) spring release.

The timeline to argue that there was a delay just doesn't add up.

If there was some behind the scenes delay, that still would have left them needing to redesign the battletome to remove art assets that didn't match the new release plan.

I think it's fairly clear that the plan for lumineth was meant for an initial wave followed later by additional support soon after. 

[stratigo]

8 hours ago, Overread said:

GW release cycles run on several factors

1) Designer led - ergo they are not always looking to fill in key slots to armies but to design what they like

2) Money led - marines sell and get a lions share of releases.

3) Manager bias

4) Dice rolls

Basically never look for a pattern because you won't really find one. Sometimes armies get update after update after update even if others are more in need; sometimes armies get left out for years and years; sometimes GW releases a lot all in one go and sometimes its drip fed. They do it all and there's not really any concrete pattern save the rate of releases.

One thing that has changed is in the past GW used to tie big releases to the codex/battletome and they came out much slower as a result. So whilst you got a lot in one big go, you might wait year upon year and it was possible for some armies to go several editions with nothing. Today GW is faster all round, but they are also more willing to do smaller side releases as well as big chunky releases. But as to what faction gets it, that's almost totally random from our point of view.

 

Don't forget though that prior to last year Slaanesh had gone a LONG time without any new models and had one of the smaller Chaos God ranges even to the point of people thinking GW was going to write them out of the game (both games) entirely. Part of why this wasn't an issue before was because Chaos God armies didn't exist until AOS, in the past they were all one single demonic army. This meant Slaanesh didn't need ranged weapons, you got them from other Chaos gods as needed. You could run pure, but you were basically running a fluffy niche list. 

When GW spread the gods out in AoS it meant that some wound up very small in diversity. Slaanesh getting two releases is clearly bulking them up like the other three core Chaos Gods. 

 

I'm somewhat surprised Lumineth are getting a new slew of models so soon, esp when Ossiarchs and others didn't. However as I said sometimes its a bit random and Lumineth were "high elves reborn" and thus GW was likely banking on a higher popularity. Still Daughters of Khain, Flesh Eaters, Fyreslayers are all smaller factions that can easily take big updates and players of those factions want those updates. When or even if they will come is unknown - FE and DoK have had some drip fed releases (FE got the count and DoK have had an underworld and Warcry warband and one new leader). Heck look at Skaven and Seraphon - big diverse armies in need of a big overhaul of a lot of their models (esp skaven) and both are very popular and sell well and yet they've not had anything much more than a token update here and there (heck have Seraphon had anything in AoS? I think their Underworld Warband might be their first update and Skaven have only had one new leader model - although in fairness they did get some nice stuff from End Times)

There is, in fact, a trend you can 100 percent count on.

 

GW will release way too damn many single model kits. Cause they get the biggest return for their bucks

[Saxon]

13 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

To me, it makes a lot of sense to release armies in the Lumineth style.

You get a release that is substantial enough to play and collect, but small enough to not be overwhelming. Plus, it's got to be easier from a production/logistics standpoint. And then after a little while you get a second wave, which results in another hype infusion and makes people who already have their 2000 points of Lumineth bought buy more, new stuff.

I could see how that would result in higher sales and, honestly, I don't even think it's especially anti-consumer.

My only concern with this is a lack of diversity available. Like cool you have a few units to choose from but it's annoying to buy say 4 of the same kit to fill your list out only to have half of that amount of models virtually become redundant once the second release happens. 

Great for GW, they sell kits they otherwise wouldn't have sold, annoying for the player. 

[Greybeard86]

10 hours ago, Saxon said:

My only concern with this is a lack of diversity available. Like cool you have a few units to choose from but it's annoying to buy say 4 of the same kit to fill your list out only to have half of that amount of models virtually become redundant once the second release happens. 

Great for GW, they sell kits they otherwise wouldn't have sold, annoying for the player. 

From a player standpoint, absolutely. Hobby focused individuals have a bit of insurance against that; unlikely that you bought x4 kits of wardens just to create a display army.

That said, there is a line somewhere between not being able to release new models after a new wave and purposefully staggering similar units to maximize sales. Where that line is, I don't know exactly.

[Clan's Cynic]

On 1/19/2021 at 3:23 PM, Overread said:

Could be anything; might just be that "its done when its done" and those got done sooner so GW is letting them out. Lumineht certainly had perhaps the worst of it last year for launches because covid hit right at their launch time and stalled it dramatically - worse than for gargants that came all at once (well one model and book). 

Lumineth were probably expected to be hugely successful given all the effort GW put into drumming up their hype and the cynic that is me thinks they just shaved off a few kits to sell a Broken Realms book to those players shortly down the line. It'll be even more telling if some Rumour Engines get solved relating to them. I think even if there was a delay to the models due to Covid, they'd have included the unit entry in the Battletome when it went to the printers - Marines and Necrons haven't had a few kits yet and it's been half a year since their 'dexes I believe?

We're already seeing a sort of Day 1 DLC in the form of the Warzone books for Death Guard - okay, not literally Day 1 releases but they were announced at the same time and were presumably printed very close together, so doing the same for unit entries wouldn't be a stretch.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Kasper]

On 1/19/2021 at 11:09 AM, Enoby said:

I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, new stuff is nice to see - especially for smaller armies. On the other hand, likely in the case of Lumineth, it can mean more books necessary to play the army if they get an additional supplement for the new models. And in the case of Slaanesh, while they had a pretty poor battletome before, I imagine there are quite a few Slaanesh players who bought the old battletome with very little chance to use it before the new one was announced. 

I think two years is probably the minimum time they should have between non-single hero releases. Otherwise you can have people with piles of rulebooks needed to play one army (which I think it what ended up happening in 40k 7e). I personally think two rulebooks should be the maximum needed for an army.

Things are being "invalidated" all the time. There could have been someone investing into Seraphon or whatever prior to a new book because they love the "current" playstyle, only to find out a new one comes out and alters it. Units are "invalidated" through FAQs with rule changes or point changes. I dont think this is new or extraordinary at all.

I think dropping new stuff in waves is just fine. It means the release wont be as overwhelming to some and currently if you dont like the release you might as well wave goodbye to the army for another 5 years. With this method you might have some hype that they will introduce some interesting things down the line - Either new models or batallions in white dwarf etc to spice things up. Fyreslayers is an example where they could have used a little extra love down the road.

[dirkdragonslayer]

On 1/18/2021 at 8:16 PM, MitGas said:

This. While I'm happy for fans of Aelfs and Slaanesh, we got a lot of armies that feel far from finished and others that could really need a proper first wave (Skaven, Seraphon, CoS) too... so yeah, while this new release strategy might benefit those armies IF they finally get an update, I feel like the first edition armies will have to wait even longer to become proper armies now. 

I think Ironjawz hurts the most for me. They are marketed as the face of the Destruction alliance, Gorkamorka's equivalent to Stormcast/Chaos Warriors/Ossiarchs, Lead by the unstoppable avatar of Gorkamorka, but are currently the smallest and least diverse of the Destruction factions. You have armored Orruks, somewhat bigger armored Orruks, and then somewhat bigger armored Orruks on pigs. Until Orruk Warclans all their stats were similar but with different wound counts/point costs/movement speed. They were almost interchangeable in terms of combat ability. Orruk Warclans sort of fixed it by giving abilities to each unit to differentiate their roles (Brutes with "Duff Up" for anti-monster, Gruntas with charge, Ardboyz volume of weaker attacks). Still a unit of Orruk Crossbow/javelin-throwers, mini rogue idols, or something to add more variety to the faction would be very appreciated.

With how active and numerous Skragrott and his Gitz are, I am surprised we aren't seeing his face represent the armies of Destruction.

[silverstu]

On 1/19/2021 at 4:40 PM, KriticalKhan said:

I really don't think we should look at Slaanesh and the Lumineth as an indicator of what's to come. Both of these updates seem more like something that got delayed from the original release (for whatever reason) rather than a "new" wave. With how they talked about the Lumineth before their release and how small the roster was compared to other new armies, it seemed to a lot of people like we weren't getting the full package, and lo-and-behold, not even a year later, we're getting stuff that the battletome was talking about as if it were already there. Slaanesh just so happened to release without the mortal half every other Chaos God had, only for it to come out in a completely unprecedented kind of release for an AoS army.

If a third army gets a "second" wave I'll believe there's a pattern, but right now I don't think we have a good enough idea of what's going on to say.

Just on your point about Lumineth getting a small roster- its not true- they got exactly the same number of kits as other releases other than a single character and mounted character being missing, in terms of big kits and unit kits they got the same as Idoneth, KO and Ossiarchs.

I wonder, since most of the factions are established now if this is GW starting to add to the original ones, Lumineth and Slaanesh getting expansions early as possibly they were first factions to be designed with an update in mind. The early factions of Fyreslayers/Sylvaneth/Ironjaws were designed when GW were pursuing lots of small factions which would be gradually cycled out over time, but as AOS has changed to a more army centric, rather than collector centric system  they are now beginning to expand the factions. Some of the earlier ones might need extra design work as they weren't planned beyond those initially releases. I'm guessing that with Destruction seemingly being the focus of AOS3 those factions will get added variety [rather than even more factions]- wolf riders added to Gitz etc.. Most factions are out now - only Grungni dwarfs and Malerion elves to come- everything else can be added as extensions/subfactions of existing factions bar the odd new factions? I'm expecting Kurnothi to be a subfaction added to Sylvaneth rather than a thing on their own. 

Personally I'd rather get a couple of units/models regularly rather than wait until a full book revamp, single characters/clampacks are needed as well as they add depth to the characters available to armies. It would be nice to have more than one KO admiral for example, even getting other models to convert into him [which is why I love Bugmansson]. 

Most factions lack depth to different degrees so it will be great if they all start getting additions to their ranges.

[azdimy]

I like those release a lot better than what we got with Khorne for example. A new battletome only a year or so after the previous one with no new units. That book could have been fleshed out and come out a lot later. This was a real disappointment for me

[Yondaime]

On 1/19/2021 at 6:57 PM, Bosskelot said:

Numerous statements from GW and LGS store managers and the status of stock of the army from both the US and UK. If you could physically go into a GW store right now you'd be seeing Fyreslayers boxes from the initial release weekend still on the shelves. One LGS near me doesn't even bother stocking the army anymore.

I certainly don't think the Lumineth launch did particularly well, just going by Element Games still having 200+ of the "Highly Limited" army box rotting away in their warehouse. That certainly doesn't speak to a successful release. Controversial visual design, Covid delay and being right in around the 9th edition 40k launch probably crippled it.

Sorry but i doubt it, fireslayer was and actually is one of the top tier army, and meta chasers bought a lot of them

I agree taht some armyes are REALLY old (stormcast 2018, khorne, sylvaneth, some death etc) but in the last years GW release half made tomes and complete them the year after.

 

lumineth and slaneesh have hilariusly poor unit choose

[Overread]

Part of Slaanesh's poor unit choice, at least in variety of models, is down to Slaanesh basically not yet being updated to work on its own as a faction in AoS. This is being heavily resolved next month for mortals; but right now Slaanesh is running around with the same demonettes, seekers and chariots that they've had for over a decade, way back when Demons of Chaos was a combined arms army with all four gods in one force. If you wanted heavier hitters you went for Khorne or Nurgle, if you wanted heavier magic you brought in Tzeentch; if you wanted ranged you had the skull cannon and tzeentch. When split Slaanesh basically got done last and last year got a half update with a big number of new leaders; this new update next month is going to bulk out slaanesh with some much needed variety and options. Two ranged units; fodder and elite style infantry and two new leader models as well. Basically a big update of tools, tricks and options.  

[Beastmaster]

At least there ARE new models for existing armies. Nice ones, too. So I’m happy.

[Greybeard86]

2 hours ago, silverstu said:

JThe early factions of Fyreslayers/Sylvaneth/Ironjaws were designed when GW were pursuing lots of small factions which would be gradually cycled out over time, but as AOS has changed to a more army centric, rather than collector centric system  they are now beginning to expand the factions.

I suspect this is very much the vase. I think AoS was spearheading massive changes in the way GW conducted business and treated their IP.

Before, they had "long lived armies" they regularly added to and upgraded. Some collections had been "tournament legal" for decades! The game was fairly complex and aspired to be a "lightweight wargame". The lore was poking fun at "fantasy tropes" and, for 40k, it was a mixture of social satire of the time and obvious sci fi references. In general, "everyone" was "bad" at some level.

Then, AoS came and it broke all conventions. They nuked huge chunks of the existing ranges and they beging to progressively retire the rest, often without warning (e.g. chaos dwarves, some ork kids, etc.). The lore is more serious, and there seem to be more "clearly good" folks, even though there remains some "little bit of grimdark" (sigmarites aren't perfect).  The game became more of a "board game" than a "wargame simulation", with simpler rules, to the point that it became unplayable in tournies (AoS at release). Armies were much narrower in ranges, and I too suspect that they intended to game "seasonal" armies much like the warbands we see in their smaller games.

I do think they have since reverted a bit from these radical changes. They having been retiring space marines in 40k at a slower pace than they had retired models in fantasy. The rules have gained a bit of complexity and there have been some balancing efforts. Armies are not being discontinued, and some see more waves of releases.

That said, I do think that all of GW's products are caught in this weird impass. Transitioning between worlds (old business of supporting wargames and miniatures that lasted decades, new business of board games and seasonal collectibles), but still finding its identity. I think this is related to the hobby finding a new space in new times. At the same time, it has become a lot more "corporate run" over the years, even though GW has been like that at some level for a very long time.

So yeah, the release strategy is clearly inconsistent. IMO this is because it wasn't really formulated by the same people, even though it is the same company.

[RuneBrush]

1 hour ago, Yondaime said:

I agree taht some armyes are REALLY old (stormcast 2018, khorne, sylvaneth, some death etc) but in the last years GW release half made tomes and complete them the year after.

Read this and couldn't help but say, 3 years is a drop in the ocean... I can remember I had to wait 3 editions of 40k for a Space Wolves Codex 😉

I do agree though, I'd love Khorne to get a bit of attention - nice centrepiece model that's not a bloodthirster and make them actually scary on the tabletop

[Koala]

1 hour ago, Yondaime said:

Sorry but i doubt it, fireslayer was and actually is one of the top tier army, and meta chasers bought a lot of them

I agree taht some armyes are REALLY old (stormcast 2018, khorne, sylvaneth, some death etc) but in the last years GW release half made tomes and complete them the year after.

 

lumineth and slaneesh have hilariusly poor unit choose

The Hobby is more than just a few tournament players. Every Sales/retail contact i have Said "fyreslayers underperformed". I trust their word.

[Yondaime]

55 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Read this and couldn't help but say, 3 years is a drop in the ocean... I can remember I had to wait 3 editions of 40k for a Space Wolves Codex 😉

I do agree though, I'd love Khorne to get a bit of attention - nice centrepiece model that's not a bloodthirster and make them actually scary on the tabletop

Same mate, i play eldar in 40k.

 

Well i think skarbrand fits the scary model part perfectly   there is one time in the last monts i one shotted katakros, 20 mortek, and a mounted OBR leader, it was brutal

Khorne problem is the outdated scrolls (like stormcast) and the shooting/magic meta, the powercreep was not forgiving with him

 

I think they should do nurgle first tho, hes even more outdated and outmeta

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Yondaime

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

I do agree though, I'd love Khorne to get a bit of attention - nice centrepiece model that's not a bloodthirster and make them actually scary on the tabletop

Haha I doubt that a new model is the solution in this specific case. Khorne has the biggest. baddest, most point expensive and nicest looking centrepiece model but it doesn’t make them scary on the tabletop 😂

 

[Overread]

Khorne got perhaps the only AoS releases from Forgeworld save for those few stormcast heads! 

[MitGas]

19 hours ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

I think Ironjawz hurts the most for me. They are marketed as the face of the Destruction alliance, Gorkamorka's equivalent to Stormcast/Chaos Warriors/Ossiarchs, Lead by the unstoppable avatar of Gorkamorka, but are currently the smallest and least diverse of the Destruction factions. You have armored Orruks, somewhat bigger armored Orruks, and then somewhat bigger armored Orruks on pigs. Until Orruk Warclans all their stats were similar but with different wound counts/point costs/movement speed. They were almost interchangeable in terms of combat ability. Orruk Warclans sort of fixed it by giving abilities to each unit to differentiate their roles (Brutes with "Duff Up" for anti-monster, Gruntas with charge, Ardboyz volume of weaker attacks). Still a unit of Orruk Crossbow/javelin-throwers, mini rogue idols, or something to add more variety to the faction would be very appreciated.

With how active and numerous Skragrott and his Gitz are, I am surprised we aren't seeing his face represent the armies of Destruction.

Fully agreed but I keep repeating myself in here - IJ desperately need more units, especially because it's not feasible to mix them with Bonesplitterz due to rules (and fluff too AFAIK)... plus Or(ru)ks are more popular than grots all in all, so they should have a similarly big roster. Right now, these first few AoS armies (minus Khorne) feel pretty half-a ssed IMO. But I guess there's a good chance they'll get expanded upon, I just hope it's sooner than later.

oh and Tzeentch Mortals/Arcanites apart from the Marauder equivalent.., do those soon too pretty please. Just while I'm wishing for things... 

Edited January 21, 2021 by MitGas

[Clan's Cynic]

4 hours ago, Yondaime said:

Sorry but i doubt it, fireslayer was and actually is one of the top tier army, and meta chasers bought a lot of them

Tournament viability doesn't account for that much with regards to popularity, unless you're talking about your absolutely broken S tier stuff. Besides which, Fyreslayers have been consistently powerful for about two years but largely in an A/B tier to skew certain popular builds like Ossiarchs. Meta chases were still largely buying Hedonites and Ossiarchs (latter until recently anyway) with the occasional outlier going for Fyreslayers.

Seeing 40k tournaments that were 50% loyalist Space Marines even when they were very weak was not uncommon. On the other hand, I pretty much never see a standalone Genestealer Cult force, but they had half a year of being very strong at tournaments. Eldar and Tau are not uncommon armies to face, but despite the former's consistently strong showing for years now, they're hardly hitting the numbers of most Imperial armies outside of them.

Most people are not tournament players. I'd go so far as to say most tournament players don't even buy a new army just because it's top tier. The ones who 'chase the meta' and Ebay flip armies on the regular are a minority of a minority. 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Enoby]

25 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Meta chases were still largely buying Hedonites and Ossiarchs (latter until recently anyway) with the occasional outlier going for Fyreslayers.

Mostly unrelated but I'm really curious to know how the Keeper of Secrets sold compared to the rest of the release. It's a great model in its own right but the number of people running 3 or 4 of them was pretty high on the top tables.