Missing in Action: Which Units Exist in Lore but Need Models?

[CommissarRotke]

32 minutes ago, Grim Beasties said:

To get things back on topic, I would love a model of the Ur-grub and hopefully the Silent People. I mean look how cool this art is.

The Silent People are definitely #1 on my new factions list (even if only an UW warband), and I do hope they turn out to be insectoid beings as I think they're a criminally underused fantasy faction. They could even be "silent" to humanoids but speak in tones or melodies only they can hear! I'm thinking sonic weapons like the Geonosians in Star Wars have

[PiotrW]

5 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

Isn't there female representation in the FEC Underworlds Warband?

As you guys aren't sure, I'd like to confirm that yes, that WHU character (Valreek) is definitely a female. She's identified as such on her card's flavour text. Also, she's awesome Overall, the Grymwatch are a wonderful collection of minis - I'd have never thought that you can give the FEC ghouls so much of character!

... and I'd like to stop here when it comes to the subject of females. I think everything has already been said - and it's true that this subject was derailing this thread a bit.

So, coming back to what I think still needs to be added to the game based on the lore...

It's been said before, but: Shyish humans for Nagash armies. Human Nagash worshippers are clearly mentioned in the rulebooks - and yet, there are no models for them. Also, I'd say we need a lot of new vampires... It's another question of whether you like the old aesthetic or not, I suppose - but, personally, I really dislike the WFB-legacied vampires. Armoured knights with bats on their helmets? Women in a baroque dresses and wigs? Nope, I don't like it. I'd really want to see something more medieval or even ancient-esque. Not to mention, there could be so many vampire variants: werewolf-like vampires, Nosferatu creepies, Renfield-inspired human worshippers...

[Baron Klatz]

5 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

Gates of Azyr, the first AOS book released, opens with Aqyshy refugees being hunted by members of their own tribe who were converted into raving cannibals by Khornates. Then you find out they were converted by being forced to choose between death or eating other captives to receive Khorne's Gifts. AOS is certainly grimdark; having more  'good people' than 40k doesn't change that.

It's Nobledark, this glorious inbetween because unlike the other two settings those people can still be saved and redeemed instead of "their souls are tainted, killing them is the only option!". That's the case of many "Reclaimed" in the setting as former chaos tribes or those who had to live in their lands are reintegrated into society and the cleansing powers of realm magic & the demigod armies can purify their souls.

That's certainly a freeguild unit they could make too. Former chaos marauders that bear the symbols of Order to protect their new homes. Heavy Aqshy, Ghyran & Chamon focus would be most lore appropriate for the advances there. Stuff like the mixed tribesmen having details like fire weapons, Ghyran spite famaliars or clockwork weaponry from the realm of metal would be ace.

Also using Dobkine(cow bugs) as Freeguild Duardin insect cavalry or fire variants (like the Soulbound rpg Aqshy spider pets) for Fyreslayer cavalry would be a magnificent addition fitting the Mortal Realms armies too.

 "Dobkine are a variety of bovine that are covered in chitinous armor. The duardin of Clan Halgrimm use them as beasts of burden, pulling large carts and wagons laden with war gear and supplies, as well as their field artillery.

They are squat, bovid creatures with chitinous armor and long antennae"

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Envyus]

6 hours ago, MitGas said:

Put a female head on the current Varanguard models and see how well it fits. It won't unless you lie to yourself. 

 

That's what's written, look at those faces. I see no female face. The one with the nose ring looked female in the first image of it but it's clearly a dude on other images. That was a mistake in the description.

The head would work fine for the Varanguard if it was made for being on the Varanguard. 

 

I don't know what you are talking about now. I own the new Chaos Warriors and the sprue has several female heads. 

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

It's Nobledark, this glorious inbetween because unlike the other two settings those people can still be saved and redeemed instead of "their souls are tainted, killing them is the only option!". That's the case of many "Reclaimed" in the setting as former chaos tribes or those who had to live in their lands are reintegrated into society and the cleansing powers of realm magic & the demigod armies can purify their souls.

That's certainly a freeguild unit they could make too. Former chaos marauders that bear the symbols of Order to protect their new homes. Heavy Aqshy, Ghyran & Chamon focus would be most lore appropriate for the advances there. Stuff like the mixed tribesmen having details like fire weapons, Ghyran spite famaliars or clockwork weaponry from the realm of metal would be ace.

never heard that term before but I already like it! Love the idea of "reclaimed" humans coming back to Order too, is this from a book?? That would be amazing to see a ragtag/irregular unit of ex-chaos humans in Cities

[Baron Klatz]

I believe reclaimed started with the 2017 "Shadows over Hammerhal" warhammer quest supplement in describing the hordes of refugees taken in from the over-expanding city and how much ground Order was retaking from Aqshy in between the Realmgate Wars and Seeds of Hope, the latter noting the Cogforts did a lot of the work as the mobile fortresses took so much ground from chaos.

After that the term Reclaimed pops up in a number of books. We get to know one in "The Red Hour" novella as a golden tattoed Chamonian tribesmen works as a scout for an old Freeguild fortress. He tells of some harrowing tales living under chaos, his rebelling tribe on the run with light sleep to where any injured were mercy killed as they couldn't afford to ever slow down.

Then came the Stormcasts that lightning'd down and freed all his people. Many then swarmed the freeguild offices stationed there to sign up out of gratitude. Their positions are mixed sometimes though as some freeguild generals don't fully trust tribal people that lived under chaos corruption for centuries.

Edit: It's a good showcase of that Nobledark grey area AoS has. Things start horrifyingly, get better by heavenly saviors and then settle in a grey area of things being both good with some bads stumbling it but can get better and build towards a brighter future. (Or stay dark if you prefer, like in Shyish the weird time flows means there's still places unchanged since the Age of Chaos and won't move forward on their own)

Edited January 14, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Honk]

21 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Love the idea of "reclaimed" humans coming back to Order too

Sir, I am disgusted by your lack of Reverence to our holy Overlord Nagash, appalling.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

11 hours ago, MitGas said:

Yeah, all I see are a bunch of people that have no idea what women look like apparently. Are you white-knighting

The armor of Undivided suggests a man under it so strongly, it seriously makes me wonder if you've ever seen a girl in the wild or you're deliberately white-knighting cause you want girl Chaos Warriors to exist. I know the answer.  Women certainly don't look like CWs and even less so Varanguard. Not even men naturally do unless you inject them with huge amounts of illegal substances and they have the genetics for it. Yes, there are very few females like that too but they're fully outside the norm as they take supplements that aren't even meant for their gender (hell, no even men should take them). It's not a natural look. There's a ZEROOOOO (*Greg Doucette voice*) chance that Varanguard are women at the moment. Look at the neck. That is not a female neck. Of course you can imagine them to be women if you like.  Then you can also imagine the moon to wink at you at night too, though.

The female WH:U leader was thought of by many as a dude at first, cause the overall body shape of a CW clearly doesn't read as female (else that mistake wouldn't have been made). And yes, they could change the armor slightly to make it look more female but that's messing around with an iconic look and I'm heavily against it. It would be like messing with Space Marines (that is out of the question due to background thankfully) or other iconic looks. Not a single piece of Warhammer art in the last 21 years (since I know them) suggested females under Chaos Warrior armor. Chaotic females had their own look (Yes, it was Chaos armor but the style was different, it was feminine) and they weren't part of Chaos Warrior units.

Karic Acolytes: The single female sculpt looks clearly like a woman. I'd like more girl sculpts in there.
Bloodreavers: No women as far as I know. Would you also argue there are women under the armor of the Blood Warriors? Cause those are also clearly male.
Nurgle: The only woman is the WH:U witch AFAIK. Which looks like the part. Not sure anyone wants more Nurgle females.
Slaanesh: The heavily armored units still look predominantly male in body shape and we all know Slaanesh blurs the line... they could all be hermaphrodites for all we know.
S2D: The new Start Collecting box has no women in it. The helmetless head variants are ALL male. We got a single female leader in the upcoming WH:U warband.

It's all good  to have women be part of Chaos but give them fitting spots and looks (what everyone is waiting for are Marauders). And don't change the look/feel of established units. There are a billion ways to add more women to Chaos without ****** around with things. A woman in Chaos Warrior armor is not a natural fit and I'm against it not because I'm backwards thinking and hate women but because I like the established look and HATE for it to change just because self-proclaimed enlightened kids think this is the way. And you're bending the gender's identity to make fit the CW aesthetic anyways as it's not a natural fit.

A natural fit would be the Lumineth models, where the sexes are much closer in looks. Oh and please also argue for male models in basic DOK units. 

Seriously dude? You're gonna pull the white knighting card? I won't linger on this point long because it says a little bit more about you than the rest of us and that's not the point of this thread or even this forum, but I'll address two points regarding this. First it's kinda hard to white knight something into existence when it already does, you can argue all you want that the head sculpts aren't feminine and i'd be inclined to agree with many of them because even many of the sisters of battle head sculpts aren't feminine looking, doesn't change that the sculpts are stated as female by the company themselves.  Second you said yourself the chaos warrior look isn't natural for women OR men, we're literally talking about formations of soldiers wearing matching cursed armour and roided out on daemonic power, there is nothing natural about them or the way they look nor does it change the look as GW sculpts them in identical armour. This goes for most warrior tier chaos worshippers and up, especially khorne and undivided where the point is being beefy enough to arm wrestle an orruck. As for nurgle females, i mean i don't exactly want to look at nurgle males either but being gross to look at is the point. 

I think you're either misunderstanding the point of my argument or ignoring because my point is that it's fine for chaos warriors to be female since at the end of the day they're gonna be in the same armour as the males. Warrior is just another step on the path of damnation all chaos undivided worshippers take.  you go from cultist > warrior> knight/chosen> lord/varanguard> pray for apotheosis to prince. There's no weird split progression path for women because there's never needed to be. You don't know what's under all that armour until they either speak or take it off, because at the end of the day they aren't normal people and don't follow normal body standards, they're already outright mutated to be bigger than a normal human.

As for your point on messing with things historically and bringing up space marines, first of all props for sticking with the hobby for 2 decades (only been in it 6 years myself but that also comes from being on the younger side of the community), but space marines weren't always exclusively male. GW cut their female sculpts to smooth production and just wrote the retcon to justify the discontinuation of the model. That's always been how GW operated, they design a model and write the fluff afterwards whether it requires a retcon or a new addition. A lack of female sculpts in the early decades of GW's production was a resource management decision.

Oh and just a neat tidbit about males and females wearing the same armour, GW has actually been doing that for a while now with eldar in 40k, banshees for example all have sculpted boob plating but males wear the same armour because it's just how eldar tradition goes. 

Anyways I've made my point and I say we drop the gendered sculpts debate here before it veers too far off topic. To steer back to the thread topic I agree that the ball has been dropped when it comes to tzeentch mortals. Kairic acolytes and magisters are cool but I'd love to see a warrior wizard unit similar to the curseling. Some heavy armour, heavily mutated freaks throwing around spells and swinging sword-staves. They really need a warrior/BK/myrmadesh tier elite infantry.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

2 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

I believe reclaimed started with the 2017 "Shadows over Hammerhal" warhammer quest supplement in describing the hordes of refugees taken in from the over-expanding city and how much ground Order was retaking from Aqshy in between the Realmgate Wars and Seeds of Hope, the latter noting the Cogforts did a lot of the work as the mobile fortresses took so much ground from chaos.

After that the term Reclaimed pops up in a number of books. We get to know one in "The Red Hour" novella as a golden tattoed Chamonian tribesmen works as a scout for an old Freeguild fortress. He tells of some harrowing tales living under chaos, his rebelling tribe on the run with light sleep to where any injured were mercy killed as they couldn't afford to ever slow down.

Then came the Stormcasts that lightning'd down and freed all his people. Many then swarmed the freeguild offices stationed there to sign up out of gratitude. Their positions are mixed sometimes though as some freeguild generals don't fully trust tribal people that lived under chaos corruption for centuries.

Edit: It's a good showcase of that Nobledark grey area AoS has. Things start horrifyingly, get better by heavenly saviors and then settle in a grey area of things being both good with some bads stumbling it but can get better and build towards a brighter future. (Or stay dark if you prefer, like in Shyish the weird time flows means there's still places unchanged since the Age of Chaos and won't move forward on their own)

This would be a cool opportunity to give freeguild or cities in general a scout unit or some low armour but high damage unit of reclaimed warriors who are waaaay too eager to prove themselves to their peers. Maybe something like an elite flagellant unit in the vein of sisters repentia from 40k but clad in furs and wielding star soul maces or other weapon that trades safety for damage.

Also cogforts need to be a thing like asap

Edited January 14, 2021 by Lucky Snake Eyes
Cogforts damn it!

[silverstu]

6 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

I

Also using Dobkine(cow bugs) as Freeguild Duardin insect cavalry or fire variants (like the Soulbound rpg Aqshy spider pets) for Fyreslayer cavalry would be a magnificent addition fitting the Mortal Realms armies too.

 "Dobkine are a variety of bovine that are covered in chitinous armor. The duardin of Clan Halgrimm use them as beasts of burden, pulling large carts and wagons laden with war gear and supplies, as well as their field artillery.

They are squat, bovid creatures with chitinous armor and long antennae"

 

Love that idea of Duardin artillery platforms pulled by giant insects, makes for an interesting divergence from goat/boar cavalry , although someone converted up a yak-type creature for their Bugmansson reclaimers and it looked ace.. More critters though the better- ants and termites tunnelling has a definite link to dwarfs as well..

Kurnoth and his subjects I'm particularly interested in but they aren't really mentioned in the lore other than hints of Kurnoth himself.

[Beastmaster]

The way forward in my mind would be Idoneth thralls and reavers. They share their overall sinewy racial trait, while still coming in a discernible and believable male and female variant of that body type. Also different clothing, but still in the same style.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Beastmaster

[SunStorm]

On 1/14/2021 at 10:26 AM, Neverchosen said:

Hmmm, this is a great point but is there any specific take on Orruk culture that you would want to see? I know that you were stating regular (I presume that is the more classic greenskin/orcs and goblin style forces) but is there a specific element of them that you want expanded upon? I am interested because I share your thoughts but I simultaneously feel like everything I want covered in such an army exists in Orruk Warclans already. I feel like I would want a traditional take on Orruks but purely for aesthetic reasons... maybe they will have access to more traditional Grot Tribes as well to differentiate them? 

Well my focus is on Ironjaws rather than Bonesplitterz and is from an aesthetic point of view (i'm more of a collector than gamer at the moment), I'd like to see some warmachines. I don't buy the lore that they just punch everything to bits and so don't need anything else.

Maybe a chariot kit, pulled by gore-gruntas that can be built as either a CC version or one that has a giant ballista firing chained harpoons (for helping bring down and attack those pesky flying enemies). I'd also like to see some additional mounted HQs, warchanter/shaman/megaboss on gore-gruntas would all be easy wins (I'm already working on converting some of these) 

They could also do a larger kit like a Squigoth style beast, maybe with a idol of gorkamorka on it's back, maybe the Orruk equivalent of the Arachnarok.

I'd also like to see some non-gloomspite goblins to accompany them along the lines of the Underworlds wolfriders, a multi part wolfrider kit that could be used as light cavalry.

They could also do with some endless spells and a terrain piece like a lot of other factions. Oh and a new kit for the ard boys as the kit is really showing it's age compared to the Specialist Game Orruks/Orcs

I can understand how they came to be, like other AOS 1.0 armies they took an existing faction, boiled it down to the basic essence and made it copywriteable. It just seems that scope and lore seems limiting, especially since AoS 2.0 has expanded so much about the vast realms and how much room there is for other units and types of Orrukes

Overall I love the Ironjawz look and love all the AoS era kits. The Brutes especially, with a bit of chopping can go very far, but without converting you're limited by the number of kits to making a larger army. I'd just like to see more.

Edited January 15, 2021 by SunStorm

[CommissarRotke]

15 hours ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

Also cogforts need to be a thing like asap

I was talking about this with some friends last week, the concept is amazing & Soulbound even has a story mission based around riding one and helping the crew, but the sheer scale of them means I doubt we'll see them on tabletop. Maybe a mobile weapons platform or a much smaller fort. "Cogpost" is right there for a cog-mobile outpost.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

4 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

I was talking about this with some friends last week, the concept is amazing & Soulbound even has a story mission based around riding one and helping the crew, but the sheer scale of them means I doubt we'll see them on tabletop. Maybe a mobile weapons platform or a much smaller fort. "Cogpost" is right there for a cog-mobile outpost.

Imagine a cogfort terrain piece that's one side of a cogfort placed on a table edge. It could have some special rules for deploying out of it or having a hero nearby lets you fire it's guns. It'd a cool concept for it to represent a cities force showing up on one of these behemoths.

[dekay]

4 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

I was talking about this with some friends last week, the concept is amazing & Soulbound even has a story mission based around riding one and helping the crew, but the sheer scale of them means I doubt we'll see them on tabletop. Maybe a mobile weapons platform or a much smaller fort. "Cogpost" is right there for a cog-mobile outpost.

Lore seems to describe cogforts as being in all shapes and sizes, so the idea of a smaller one would work perfectly here i think. Something on a level of KO Ironclad with no flying, half the speed and capable of transporting all CoS infantry. Basically a perfect centerpiece unit for the faction.

[Neverchosen]

The cogfort discussion made me wonder do any of the books hint at any particular forms of terrain. I think it is so strange that in giving everything terrain rules that Legions of Nagash never got physical grave markers. That is beyond a unit being presented in lore but a literal gameplay mechanic.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

21 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

The cogfort discussion made me wonder do any of the books hint at any particular forms of terrain. I think it is so strange that in giving everything terrain rules that Legions of Nagash never got physical grave markers. That is beyond a unit being presented in lore but a literal gameplay mechanic.

Well LoN or soulblight could get the actual crimson keep or a "crimson keep outpost" and it would work in lore and gameplay as the keep teleports wherever Nagash needs the blood dragons. Have it give an aura of bravery or buff vampires. 

I know KO lore mentions floating lighthouses that could be a large sized terrain piece that gives movement buffs or specifically applies effects to flying units?

Tzeentch is the only mono chaos army without terrain, but it could be reasonable to have gateways to the silver labyrinth as terrain pieces that let daemon units move between them like gnaw holes or let wizards swap spells by drawing on the labyrinth's secrets.

For Ironjaws/bonesplitters I'd love for the rogue Idol to be the terrain piece, it sits idly and gives it's buffs and for a massive investment in waaagh points it can be activated as a unit.

Nighthaunt could have the chained processions of captured spirits or the gallows as a terrain piece that plays towards the reaped souls and works with the bravery and fear mechanics that nighthaunt are built on.

[GDD]

@Lucky Snake Eyes Tzeentch famously has Silver Towers! They show up in AoS lore as well. The first AoS boxed game was all about attacking one, and they also show up in the realm lore about Chamon.

Though they're a wee bit MASSIVE to be used for faction terrain I reckon.

Edited January 16, 2021 by GDD
Spelling.

[Neverchosen]

On 1/15/2021 at 4:25 PM, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

Well LoN or soulblight could get the actual crimson keep or a "crimson keep outpost" and it would work in lore and gameplay as the keep teleports wherever Nagash needs the blood dragons. Have it give an aura of bravery or buff vampires. 

I know KO lore mentions floating lighthouses that could be a large sized terrain piece that gives movement buffs or specifically applies effects to flying units?

Tzeentch is the only mono chaos army without terrain, but it could be reasonable to have gateways to the silver labyrinth as terrain pieces that let daemon units move between them like gnaw holes or let wizards swap spells by drawing on the labyrinth's secrets.

For Ironjaws/bonesplitters I'd love for the rogue Idol to be the terrain piece, it sits idly and gives it's buffs and for a massive investment in waaagh points it can be activated as a unit.

Nighthaunt could have the chained processions of captured spirits or the gallows as a terrain piece that plays towards the reaped souls and works with the bravery and fear mechanics that nighthaunt are built on.

These are amazing ideas, I always wanted Orruk Warclans to have a massive effigy with different build options for the head to represent different Gods or Unique Characters in AOS. I would imagine it largely working as a debuffer for the opposing army. People could magnetize it and have it reflect the enemies they are facing or specifically choose the opponent they are most likely to encounter. 

On 1/15/2021 at 10:07 PM, GDD said:

@Lucky Snake Eyes Tzeentch famously has Silver Towers! They show up in AoS lore as well. The first AoS boxed game was all about attacking one, and they also show up in the realm lore about Chamon.

Though they're a wee bit MASSIVE to be used for faction terrain I reckon.

I wonder if they could represent a part of the whole, Like a Silver Tower's portcullis or gate house?

[MitGas]

I'd rather not have faction terrain for Tzeentch. We got enough allegiance abilites as is and I'd rather see kits for mortal/arcanite Tzeentch than a terrain piece. Dunno why filler terrain is all the rage now.

[Neverchosen]

13 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I'd rather not have faction terrain for Tzeentch. We got enough allegiance abilites as is and I'd rather see kits for mortal/arcanite Tzeentch than a terrain piece. Dunno why filler terrain is all the rage now.

I think the idea that the terrain is free and has an effect makes people think it is fair that every army should have a terrain piece. But the reality is that it is typically an extra purchase that has an effect that might as well be allegiance ability. I often like them because they look cool and function as simple terrain when using different armies... The Herdstone in particular is one of my favourite terrain pieces and I want one just for terrain purposes alone.

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

I think the idea that the terrain is free and has an effect makes people think it is fair that every army should have a terrain piece. But the reality is that it is typically an extra purchase that has an effect that might as well be allegiance ability. I often like them because they look cool and function as simple terrain when using different armies... The Herdstone in particular is one of my favourite terrain pieces and I want one just for terrain purposes alone.

Yes, the Herdstone is a great kit indeed, can't argue with that. Also thought about getting one, just as a terrain piece. But personally I don't see why every faction should have its own terrain piece... like you've said, a few rules can do just as well.  Plus some of them are simple cut 'n paste jobs like the Slaanesh one... no thanks if we get something like that. Their (GW's) resources could be used for much better things and even if it's just a much needed unit for another army. 

With a silver tower being a much too big contruct, I'd only see something like a Balewind Vortex (especially if it gets removed) fitting. Seeing how DoTzeentch is the army of the god of magic (take that, lumineth! *bird rage*), it would need to be something that boosts their abilites, perhaps similarly to the moon shrine from the Gitz. Anyways, I'd rather see them focus on one of the much needed units for any army... plus the destiny dice mechanic is a very strong and unique mechanism... asking for more allegiance abilities feels kinda greedy.

[Neverchosen]

The new Lumineth article shares some potential new units that will likely one day release particularly there is some cool lore about water spirits. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/26/how-well-do-you-know-the-spirits-of-hysh/

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I had to really dig deep for my rat-boyz. Its alluded to in our book that Ko ships/sky-city was taken over by thanquol himself. Then there must-must be the possibility of sky-pirate rats. Not sure we deserve flying units to be frank.

Theres plenty of named heroes in our lore. The hysterical part is they never survive past the blurb written about their exploits. 

We also have brood-mothers but they make no sense on the tabletop since they should never be close to combat.

This question sounds like a non-starter for Skaven, unless others devoted to the Great Horned One have any ideas.

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

Not sure we deserve flying units to be frank.

Of course you do. If GW finally stops pushing out Aelf after Aelf after Aelf, who knows, maybe's there's a chance for some cool armies again.