Fyreslayers: discussing their design

[Skreech Verminking]

Fyrselayers have an amazing look. There’s just one small problem.

they all look alike.

as a Faction they just are well considerably one of the worst when it comes to  looks.

In the end they are basically slayers from the old world.

With the broken realms we seem to be getting new rules and sometimes even new subfactions.

what would be great I think is to maybe be able to field a mixed force of duardins, that well are looking to take back their karaks from the devilish chaos-things.

It may not make the fyreslayers faction in total more interesting, but could be a start in seeing some of these units being used in other armies more constantly.

[Beastmaster]

Sorry, double post

Edited January 6, 2021 by Beastmaster

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

I voted that I didn't like them, but mostly because the poll didn't have the actual option I wanted. Fyreslayers have a lot of aesthetic potential, but have barely tapped a tiny fraction of it. They have the same model, over and over again, with slightly different armaments. I'm not 100% sure I could tell their infantry units or heroes apart from across the table without leaning down for a closer look. The only exception is the Magmadroth, and that's on the mount, not the rider.

Now, the Magmadroth is in fact one of my favorite monsters,  so the range certainly isn't all bad! But they desperately need more distinct units and heroes. The suggestion of Salamander cavalry made earlier would be perfect, as would, I dunno...some artillery pieces, or some kind of fire spirit unit (as opposed to the magmic invocations, which aren't units and don't count).  Maybe a giant ur-gold golem or a duardin who temporarily takes on a fragment of Grimnir's spirit like the Eidolon of Mathlann or the Dwarf Avatar ability from Warcraft III.

[Nordrim]

To me they are just ok...The fact that the slayers i have know since childhood are most likely gone because of them to avoid having similar design with unforged and the true slayers, just tugs my beard the wrong way.

Design wise I really hate the helmets.

Story wise I prefer the old orangehairs who seek glorious death to regain their honor in contrast to greedy gold seeking mercenaries who even might work for chaos is offered urgold.

But that's just me I prefer old worlds slayers, I'm sure most players wont mind the transition slayers are gone between the settings. (Well Gotrek Gurnison certainly minded during his meeting with them, like a real dawi should😂)

[Doko]

I have 2000 points of fyreslayers and even then i choose the dislike option.

Vulkite berzerkers are great as basic troop.

Then hearthguard ranged is ok as ranged option but could have got any armor to be diferent to basic troop

Hearthguard berzerkers weapon are great but also needed something to have diferent body than basic troop.

 

Something as slayers of the game age of reckoning.

 

https://m.facebook.com/officialwarhammeronline/photos/slayer/10150259624512227/

 

I know the runes are his armor,but even for dwarfs lovers as me(i have 2000 points of fyreslayers and dispossesed\ironweld) there is a limit. A full army of 70\100 naked dwarfs with almost the same body and only changes in the weapon is a bit plain.

I would like some as magmadroth without riders,litle magmadroth cavalry,any fyre golem,armored fyreslayers as the pic i showed etc.

But after 5 years since his release and the 0 new units that they got(scenary,endless spells or shadespire dont count) while daemons got 99999 new units per example makes me think that were a faill,and gw only gonna ignore them

[Greybeard86]

46 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

You're spot on about the faces and general emotion/feel/character and there's also something there about beards as well as a few other ropey sculpts like the Runefather and the poses on most Vulkite berzerkers. 

I still think there's potential there. [...]It would need a sizeable expansion though and something of a conceptual reset, which is probably above and beyond what GW will give it.

Outstanding post, thanks for taking the time to write it.

Some key design flaws, IMO:

Aesthethic

• No face, no emotion: rage is better expressed with the face; lots of units have dynamic poses swinging and what not, but the face is what sets the tone. These are berserkers yet they overcrowded the face with elements to the point that there isn't any.
• Helmets are the wrong design focus: they merge badly with the mohawk, which they clearly want to keep, and again overcrowd the face. Buckles, shoulder pads (GW loves those) would be far better spots, aside from weapons, IMO, to allow for design space.
• Only slayers?: slayers are not a sustainable society on their own, where are all the elements you mention? They would bring the necessary contrast. Squires to the "knights", if you wish; acolytes to the priests (this doubles as both lore and aesthethic).

Lore

• How can a berserker be motivated by greed: it does not work; berserker is about abandon, not caring, about the rage allowing the warrior to power through the wounds in trance like state. If the slayer just cares about gathering gold (for whatever reason), then the optimal strategy is NOT to be a berserker, but to stay alive to fight again and earn more gold. To be coherent, they should be assassins, not berserkers. In fact, given the goal, KO would make more sense. Old slayers worked because they wanted to die, it is silly but it makes sense. New slayers are illogical.

IMO they need to be retconned or die. Barely anyone plays them (it is not me saying this), even though rules wise they are good. I would hate to see the slayer theme die, it is one of the few "pure" GW idees, like you said. Giving them some new unit like cavalry won't solve the fundamental design issues, IMHO.

[NotAWzrd]

@sandlemad

I really like your priesthood expansion idea, and with them now worshipping both Grimnir and Vulcatrix,  it further enforces that cult like parallel flirting with the darkness. That could definitely lead to some more unique visual identities, large scale avatars of Grimnir, or cult members who’ve taken on a grey scale like sickness that hints at their devotion to Vulcatrix. It reminded of this piece of art from the battletome actually.

Combine the more heroic monster slaying side of Fyreslayers with the darker priesthood and doubling down on them being the Aqshy poster boys  with some lava or steam powered constructs and I think they’d get some much more positive fan responses. Adding  duality / conflict within their lore (which is already there for them  to expand upon) as well as their aesthetic design would hopefully mean they don’t just get lumped in with another Duardin book as I think theres a lot of potential here.
 

[Neverchosen]

I love the Fyreslayer aesthetic, they are probably my favourite Dwarf faction in the game. I just feel that GW shot themselves in the foot by making all of the units look so similar. The helmets were a good method for creating visual variation between the models but instead the only notable difference I can tell between them is their weapons. I also think the choice to make them all have read hair and beards makes the homogeny of the range more apparent. I like when people give them different skin tones as well as beard and hair colour but more often than not I find people will still go for a homogenous look for their army, I am not sure if this is a lore related choice or a tactic to confuse opponents, who can no longer tell your heroes from your infantry. As others have mentioned some unit variation would go really far in giving the army more personality. I personally would love a chariot of sorts and juvenile Magmadroths (mounted or unmounted). I think another cool unit would be an elite group of Slayers that have been injured in battle but continue to fight on. They can be armed with prosthetics (such as metal fists, bladed limbs, or magmapipe attachments). They could be venerated for their sacrifice and continued bravery inspiring fellow units and given the best weapons that the forge can provide. They can carry scars and eyepatches as badges of honour and fight with even greater fury. 

In essence they just need something to break from the tedium of the same guy with a different weapon. I make fun of the Malibu Stacy approach to Space Marines but at least they do have a new hat... Fyreslayers are sadly even more similar. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Doko]

Dont get me wrong,the actual models are amazing and i really like them(so i bougth them lol).

I just saw the post in lumimeths with the numbers showing fyreslayerz as the last in ranking of popularity.......i usually love play the class(in mmorpg) or the army that nobody play but in gw is a very bad omen.

After see armys with low sells die as tomb king or bretonian i really have fear that fyreslayers gonna be forgotten for years with 0 releases untill deleted.

Nothing is worse than after have spent so many money and time on a army be forgotten and deleted.

I hope gw try save them releasing new kits that give many visual options and become popular

 

I know that gw wont give them armor due to the lore, but even then can be options,as fyreslayers novices that havent their runes yet and go to the battles full armored.

Any option as this is lore friendly to avoid the only naked dwarf

Edited January 6, 2021 by Doko

[Neverchosen]

1 minute ago, Doko said:

Dont get me wrong,the actual models are amazing and i really like them(so i bougth them lol).

I just saw the post in lumimeths with the numbers showing fyreslayerz as the last in ranking of popularity.......i usually love play the class(in mmorpg) or the army that nobody play but in gw is a very bad omen.

After see armys with low sells die as tomb king or bretonian i really have fear that fyreslayers gonna be forgotten for years with 0 releases untill deleted.

Nothing is worse than after have spent so many money and time on a army be forgotten and deleted.

I hope gw try save them releasing new kits that give many visual options and become popular

I think that they are a classic army and wont get squatted but I could imagine them being enfolded into a more broad Duardin army kind of like how Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz were merged. 

[Aurelian]

I personally like the fyreslayer models bar their repetitiveness. When you have hordes of them in the same 5 poses things start to get a bit stale. 

[sandlemad]

48 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

How can a berserker be motivated by greed: it does not work; berserker is about abandon, not caring, about the rage allowing the warrior to power through the wounds in trance like state. If the slayer just cares about gathering gold (for whatever reason), then the optimal strategy is NOT to be a berserker, but to stay alive to fight again and earn more gold. To be coherent, they should be assassins, not berserkers. In fact, given the goal, KO would make more sense. Old slayers worked because they wanted to die, it is silly but it makes sense. New slayers are illogical.

This one theoretically works for me honestly, because it doesn't have to be conventional dwarvish greed or being obsessed with gold. It's all about the Ur-Gold and getting Grimnir back together, combined with a particularly by-the-letter version of dwarvish legalism where they'll honour the contract but no more (a bit like the Kharadron, the same dwarvish literalism but for completely different reasons). They're mercenaries out of a secret religious impetus, like their hajj or the Amish rumspringa. Ultimately the commercial aspect is kind of a front, the best way for their ultra-orthodox beliefs and secret quest to find expression in a world that doesn't share those beliefs. Not greedy but certainly isolationist and often uncaring of others. They're berzerkers because it's a sacred duty that they're throwing themselves into, and because they're dwarves they give it 100% every time.

That's the quirk or paradox I like, that the most hardcore traditionalist dwarves in AoS actually come full circle and wind up working as mercenaries. It's weirdly counterintuitive enough that it feels more like the real world to me, or at any rate not the most obvious thing.

In practice though this is pretty badly undercut by the woolliness in the AoS background as written about how much of it actually does come down to greed. It's unfortunate and makes for a less interesting faction every time that we see 'greedy mercenary Fyreslayers just out for cash' played straight, particularly when, as you say, that doesn't square with them being berzerkers. There's also the problem that "naked berzerkers empowered by spirits/their deity" and "dead god whose worshippers are trying to resurrect him, secretly or not" are both ideas that GW has gone back to several more times in AoS (Daughters of Khaine, Bonesplitters, Idoneth) which serves to make Fyreslayers less unique and frankly a bit of a first draft of the idea. It still has potential, it's just... not handled well at all.

Ultimately they don't really share much with WHFB Slayers beyond surface level aesthetics. They have the orange hair, the Grimnir worship, the axes, but lose the core issue of honour, disgrace and a suicidal drive. It's tricky. Everything I like about their potential takes them further away from that core WHFB Slayer concept. I don't want to see it go entirely but it just doesn't fit on this scale. Probably a better name that didn't include -slayer would have helped but then they still would be naked and have the orange hair... I don't think it's an unsolvable problem but it's a tension.

Edited January 6, 2021 by sandlemad

[EccentricCircle]

The problem is simple. Troll slayers slay trolls, demon slayers slay demons, dragon slayers slay dragons.

If they're going to call them selves fire slayers then they need hose pipes and gas masks! They can keep the axes of course, those will be useful for chopping through collapsing buildings to rescue people.

 

More seriously, I think there should be an option for "maybe" or "not sure" in the poll. I like the idea, and as some of the previous posters have shown, there is a lot you can do with their theme and concept. I like some design elements, but at the end of the day they are the dwarf army I have least of for a reason, there just isn't that much to do with them. I wish they'd taken a more Chaos Dwarf like approach (the true Dawi Zharr!) Masked priests, weird rituals, fantatical cult soldiers. The ghost of it is there, its just executed in a really boring way.

I presently just have the magmadroth and the spells for use with my Chaos Dwarves. If I expand on them in future, they will have a very different look to the wave of ginger and skin. Maybe ashen hair, or a more Duergar type look. I'm not sure yet, but we shall see...

 

 

[Greybeard86]

7 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

This one theoretically works for me honestly, because it doesn't have to be conventional dwarvish greed or being obsessed with gold. It's all about the Ur-Gold and getting Grimnir back together, combined with a particularly by-the-letter version of dwarvish legalism where they'll honour the contract but no more (a bit like the Kharadron, the same dwarvish literalism but for completely different reasons). They're mercenaries out of a secret religious impetus, like their hajj or the Amish rumspringa. Ultimately the commercial aspect is kind of a front, the best way for their ultra-orthodox beliefs and secret quest to find expression in a world that doesn't share those beliefs. Not greedy but certainly isolationist and often uncaring of others. They're berzerkers because it's a sacred duty that they're throwing themselves into, and because they're dwarves they give it 100% every time.

I understand that the idea of them fanatically attempting to gather ur-gold is a good theme for "slayers". Doing it on contract is not thematic in the least, IMO.

Why would they work as mercenaries instead of just hunting down those with ur-gold to take the "sacred relics" back with them?

If they insist on the"honor bound contract" aspect of it, then again going full berzerker about it is, as we will agree, just not very appropriate. Ultimately, they want to gather ur-gold over anything else (they'll even work for "bad guys"), so they should behave accordingly; attempt survive to fight again and gain yet more ur-gold. Their traditions and fighting style should evolve towards "maximizing ur-gold revenue". I am a sucker for internal consistency and I just don't see it for fyreslayers; to me that's what it gives it a "real world" feel.

I honestly think they picked "dwarvish" themes and just mashed them together, but I do not think it works well as it is. I do not think it is working aesthetically nor from a lore perspective. But hey, that's just me, I'm also very curious to see what others think

[Noserenda]

As an olld olllllllld school dwarf player i find the Fyreslayers abhorrent personally, their background will be spinning their ancestors in their graves so hard thats probably whats generating all the heat in the realm of fire

The models are bad, mostly because there are basically only two models in the range, Fyreslayer and Fyreslayer on magmadroth which gets awfully samey, awfully quickly. Weirdly they have less variety than the old Slayer army and they had one unit and some weird special units

As others mentioned, the helmets are a really bad choice, id personally ditch they entirely, bring back slayer hair and some facial features  and you can start building a lot more character than just weapon combinations. I mean honestly i thought the whole current army came out of one kit... (Though admittedly i hadnt looked into them much because of my powerful dislike).

I think the trousers idea above is a good one too, or clothes in general, they let units be distinct too and you can still have scantily clad minis if you want to, perhaps save the nearly naked for the elites choices? Or perhaps once you get enough Ur Gold in you you start to become more rocky, or firey? Play with the high fantasy setting a bit! 

Oh and Drake cavalry, and some artillery obviously .

 

[Sance]

Yes fyreslayers with pants, more mounted unit and women duardin !

I want to see some little dudette with fire wings, like a twisted version of the walkyries but more duardin, and with fire .

[Beliman]

Nothing to add,  but like a lot of people has already said, Fyreslayers are awesome, but they have a big problem: all units look the same.

If they can continue the same design but with enough twists for new diferent units (Ex.: ogre-sized deformed dwarfs that coudn't handle a high-level rune on their skin, magmadroth riders/chariot, etc...).

The old Warhammer Slayers are/were awesome (lore and design, they were unique for the whole Dwarf roster), but the miniatures were just a parody of themself, so it's not a lost for me (yeah, I know, "but they had a lot of personality", that jedi nostalgia mind tricks don't work on me).

I'm not saying that the new ones are the best, but look at the Chosen Axes as the "nu slayers" and the new Gotrek as "Ol'Slayers" and I prefer this two sculpts than anything from Fantasy nor Fyreslayers troops.

And that's without talking about Magmadroths and the forge. Both miniatures are awesome!!!

Edited January 6, 2021 by Beliman

[Gwill_of_the_Woods]

"Do I like the aesthetic?"

Yes and No!

Generally speaking I like the unarmored "running in" look.

As a model collection, I think that it all looks too samey. It really bores me that there isn't any difference in size or style.

To use Old World terminology there is enough infantry/ cavalry/ monstrous infantry/ monstrous cavalry and monster. (For my tastes)

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

How can a berserker be motivated by greed: it does not work; berserker is about abandon, not caring, about the rage allowing the warrior to power through the wounds in trance like state. If the slayer just cares about gathering gold (for whatever reason), then the optimal strategy is NOT to be a berserker, but to stay alive to fight again and earn more gold. To be coherent, they should be assassins, not berserkers. In fact, given the goal, KO would make more sense. Old slayers worked because they wanted to die, it is silly but it makes sense. New slayers are illogical.

Just realised. If you read the stories with the bezerkers in them. You’d learn they have a different take. 

the hearthguard bezerkers do not act like your description at all. They fight with their wits about them in the lore. They don’t have a death wish. They do ignore wounds but that’s because they are protected by the runes. Which they take to better be able to fight their enemies to win back the ur-gold. 

The grim wrath bezerker does lose himself. Starts off as they all do. But they kinda get addicted to adding more ur-gold runes to their flesh. And up constantly on edge of sanity due to the runes influence. But even they ‘power down’ out side of battle. In all the stories I’ve read they are considered outcasts but heroes all the same. And they have their own motivations and goals. 
they don’t have a death wish but they do have a thirst for battle because the runes power makes them feel closer to their god. 

all in all. The only one with a death wish is the doomseeker. But that’s fairly obvious 😅. From memory he is the closest to old world slayers. Looking for an honourable death after a shameful act. 
maybe bezerkers is more how the outside world sees them. Ignoring wounds that would fell a man. Always looking for battle. Thinking about it bezerker is a bit of a misnomer  

 

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

all in all. The only one with a death wish is the doomseeker. But that’s fairly obvious

Even then that's actually a more recent thing. Back when the Doomseeker came from the Silver Tower his lore was he was a religious crusader looking to clear his name and win back his honor Even if it meant by dying. It's because they're slayers in name only, they're a fully functioning society of Grimnir duardin in reality and get past the faults of the old and dead ancestral dawi race.

That's one of the many cool things about them. They're traditional as sons of Grimnir with fire coursing through their veins but their pragmatic through and through. They wear the bare attire but use Ur-gold to protect their skin so they're actually better armored than they look and they embrace Polearms as their main weapons as that's the sensible weapon for duardin to use. (It's something that I really like about duardin that between Fyreslayers & Kharadron there's only one troop unit that still uses axes).

But yeah, definitely voted yes as Fyreslayers are awesome. Their lore is just so good including the little things like their libraries using Braille on metal beads strung on Orruk leather instead of books because the volcano heat and their own body temperature would destroy the pages.

Fyreslayers just need more units and stuff leaning into their elemental nature like all the lava Fyreslayers people paint along with more Aqshy monsters and lava benders.

Despite people pointing to that one poll graph(which is silly since they're right next to the still extremely loved DoK & FEC) Fyreslayers Are popular.  On Facebook they came close to Kharadron in votes and are a common sight in both tourneys and  on forums with people getting into AoS and loving their fiery design.

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Sunshine]

Is it just me who prefers the aesthetics of the WFB models in this instance?

Whilst the aesthetics of the majority Age of Sigmar models has been nothing short of exceptional, I have not been happy with the designs of the dwarven models.

[novakai]

17 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

 

Despite people pointing to that one poll graph(which is silly since they're right next to the still extremely loved DoK & FEC) Fyreslayers Are popular.  On Facebook they came close to Kharadron in votes and are a common sight in both tourneys and  on forums with people getting into AoS and loving their fiery design.

 

FEC (because they never actually got a new model release in AoS) wasn't on the Warhammer weekly poll if i recall correctly

 

[Kramer]

1 minute ago, novakai said:

FEC (because they never actually got a new model release in AoS) wasn't on the Warhammer weekly poll if i recall correctly

 

They at least got the arch revenant in AoS right? Or was that a reused sculpt? 

[Baron Klatz]

No that was 100% new.

Also isn't this the poll we're talking about?

FEC are next to the Lumineth & Hedonites which you can't tell me don't do well.

5 hours ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

I voted that I didn't like them, but mostly because the poll didn't have the actual option I wanted

Yeah I really dislike these simplistic polls. Way too easy to point to the graph and spin a false narrative of why something isn't doing well while ignoring that half the NO guys aren't actually against it but had no better choice.

Also no Fyreslayers flair? They should get a say with their favorite army I should think.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[novakai]

Just now, Kramer said:

They at least got the arch revenant in AoS right? Or was that a reused sculpt? 

well, he only counted armies that got full range releases during AoS lifespan and didn't count one off heroes releases so armies like Ogor mawtribes, Skaven, FEC, and BoC where not counted in his poll.

the poll was to see if people enjoy the AoS design and Aesthetics and which one people like and played/own the most.

i recall that Ironjawz, Gloomspite, and Nighthaunt, where both the most played main army and most liked design wise (stormcast may have had the biggest playerbase but aesthetic votes was way lower) while Fyreslayers was at the bottom in both category and even their own playerbase didn't like their design