AoS feels like neglacted child?

[El Syf]

As others have said those of us that remember oldhammer won't moan about AoS releases.

Yes i played vampire counts and we did have to wait quite a while between our 6th and 7th ed army books and the 8th ed one came out pretty early in the edition iirc.

The speed at which GW are releasing armies at at the moment is astounding and the thought of having points updates every year would have been anathema back then. 

AoS is far from neglected I would say, yes I am once again clamoring for a Vampire release like the good old days but I just like vampires!

[ChillTuup]

1 hour ago, Mwatts25 said:

as for original poster, yes he whined about the fact his army has not been updated in a while, how is that different from the multitudes that whined for vc updates during 6th-  8th edition, and because they whined, they got them. Squeaky wheel gets the grease after all.

I never said it was different from, anything, I only stated that I dislike the negativity of this and apparently quite some people agreed. I don't know why you are comparing my words with stuff I havent even mentioned.

 

Concerning the high fantasy point I wont further go into, since High fantasy is basically something you apparantly don't understand compared to low fantasy which was more WHFB related as well as your entire charlemagne story, which also doesn't matter. If you don't want to accept that according to my opinion the army doesn't fit to AOS then there is no point in discussing this.

 

  

29 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

I do think it's comical to say that Bretonnia isn't high fantasy when a long-running complaint among some WHFB fans back in the day was that they were too high fantasy for the Warhammer world, even after the grimification they received in 6th edition.

Literally no one said that.

Edited January 13, 2021 by ChillTuup

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

Think we've veered pretty substantially off track now folks (the discussion on high vs low fantasy could actually go on for years).  Not necessarily convinced there's much more discussion left to be had on the original subject either.

I have noticed a number of newer members contributing to this thread too, which is great!  Just incase you've not read it, here's a link to our TGA and You post where we clarify the base rules we expect members to follow  such as being pleasant to other members etc.

[Koala]

One of the many advantages of both playing AoS and 40k is to see the complaints on both sides ( a friend and long time hobbyist just recently mused "Warhammer can not exist without whining. Whining is half the hobby!")

 

The 40k crowd is seriously jealous of the interesting and creative new models and (whole new) armies AoS gets. "Everything we get is rules bloat, a few resculpts of old characters and lots of marines".

 

Imho:

40k gets more stuff overall, but the AoS stuff is on average more inspired and fun! So i would say clear advantage AoS.

[Mwatts25]

4 minutes ago, ChillTuup said:

Concerning the high fantasy point I wont further go into, since High fantasy is basically something you apparantly don't understand compared to low fantasy which was more WHFB related as well as your entire charlemagne story, which also doesn't matter. If you don't want to accept that according to my opinion the army doesn't fit to AOS then there is no point in discussing this.

Buddy, i’ve been a fan of fantasy in general since I was a toddler, before warhammer minis were even a thing. Going strictly by definition, low fantasy is fantasy taking place in our world, not a similar world, not a parallel world, our world, for example, harry potter is low fantasy , however, a series like howls moving castle is high fantasy due to the fact it is not our world and has illogical aspects regardless of the addition of magic. Warhammer fantasy (which includes both whfb and aos)is all high fantasy by this exact same definition, because while there are similarities between our world and the old world, there are entire continents that exist there that dont exist in our world, illogical species and places that do not fit in a rational world even accounting the inclusion of magic. This isnt a debatable point its actually the specific definition of high vs low fantasy. And I hate to break it to you but all high fantasy is inspired by low fantasy. So please try not to act as though you are more knowledgeable about a subject than someone you have never met, they might be much more informed than you know.

[Mwatts25]

12 minutes ago, Koala said:

One of the many advantages of both playing AoS and 40k is to see the complaints on both sides ( a friend and long time hobbyist just recently mused "Warhammer can not exist without whining. Whining is half the hobby!")

 

The 40k crowd is seriously jealous of the interesting and creative new models and (whole new) armies AoS gets. "Everything we get is rules bloat, a few resculpts of old characters and lots of marines".

 

Imho:

40k gets more stuff overall, but the AoS stuff is on average more inspired and fun! So i would say clear advantage AoS.

I would say however that 40k has a much more interesting modular aspect that allows for easier modification of armies, most new aos sculpts take a lot of work to modify and still look decent. for example, space marines often have limbs separate from hands and weapons, which when combined with micro magnets allows for on the fly army adaptation(though the recent edition seems to be undoing this somewhat by making the space marines more....fixed in design)

[Nizrah]

8 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

It doesn't really matter how good or bad you think the Liberator build is, the point is that you said Stormcast die easier than Cities.  That's just not correct.

CoS cost much less and you are able to field much more of them. 10 FGG cost 80 points. Demigryphs also cost much less than Dracoth. Phenix Guards are much more durable than anything i can field in SCE. 

CoS are much more durable than SCE. 

[sandlemad]

EDIT: nvm

Edited January 13, 2021 by sandlemad

[Enoby]

7 hours ago, novakai said:

 

This is interesting, thank you. I'm not sure if it's just me, but does the AoS part sound a bit tepid? Of course, "well" could mean a lot, but it seemed a bit of a mention on the side and as if AoS would normally not be considered a top seller "including Age of Sigmar, has sold well too". I'm likely reading too much into it, but it's strange to have one of their two big games to only be mentioned in parenthesis alongside the side games. 

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Mwatts25 said:

I would say however that 40k has a much more interesting modular aspect that allows for easier modification of armies, most new aos sculpts take a lot of work to modify and still look decent. for example, space marines often have limbs separate from hands and weapons, which when combined with micro magnets allows for on the fly army adaptation(though the recent edition seems to be undoing this somewhat by making the space marines more....fixed in design)

That depends on the army. Freeguild, Disposessed, Coven, Kharadron etc can easily be given other stuff.

Some factions are built more with a single build option, but it isn't all armies.

[Sleboda]

10 hours ago, novakai said:

 

Yep. A year ago, GW stock was $40. Today it's $160.

Pretty good to quadruple shareholder value in roughly a year.

I'm happy, anyway.

Just wish it would drop back to $90 on a dip so I could feel good about dumping a pile o' cash back in.

But yeah, GW is doing great. 

[Mwatts25]

8 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

That depends on the army. Freeguild, Disposessed, Coven, Kharadron etc can easily be given other stuff.

Some factions are built more with a single build option, but it isn't all armies.

This is true, but i would also point out that of the examples you listed, only 1 is based on new sculpts, the kharadron. The rest are holdover sculpts from whfb which was still more customizable and modular friendly than most of the new sculpts in aos

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I'm happy, anyway.

Well done on taking the plunge!  They are absolutely smashing it, and it just keeps going.

I eyed the shares up myself a couple of years back, but was too lazy to deal with the tax on foreign shares...more fool me, hey!

Don't feel too bad for me though, I invested the money wisely.  Bought a Gitmob army instead.

[Greybeard86]

7 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

I invested the money wisely.  Bought a Gitmob army instead.

A man of taste.

In any case, it seems that the current situation might have been "good" for GW, in terms of sales.

[Wraith01]

Besides not getting to play in my local games shop, because of Covid-19, I'm really happy with where AoS is. I feel like new stuff is constantly coming out and I'm not ready for a new edition. I think things are doing really good with the ruleset we have and GW only needs to add more armies and keep things steady. The story just picked up with Broken Realms Morathi and I'm really looking forward to the new Slaanesh mortals. Thanks to Warcry and Underworlds I have small sets of almost every army, and thanks to the pandemic I actually have time to paint my minis.

[zilberfrid]

10 hours ago, Mwatts25 said:

This is true, but i would also point out that of the examples you listed, only 1 is based on new sculpts, the kharadron. The rest are holdover sculpts from whfb which was still more customizable and modular friendly than most of the new sculpts in aos

Kharadron are also the best looking army in the whole of AoS.

I only have them and Cities, together with a Necromunda set. To me, AoS is modular.

[Mwatts25]

51 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Kharadron are also the best looking army in the whole of AoS.

I only have them and Cities, together with a Necromunda set. To me, AoS is modular.

Most GW minis are modular to one degree or another, im not saying there is no variation between mini sculpts. What I was saying is that in recent game editions and with the more recent sculpts, there is less “wiggle room” for variations of weapons, angles to glue arms on, stuff like that. Just as an example, using some examples from 6th edition, between various arms, heads, torsos, and legs, one could make 100’s of thousands of variations of a mini from bits in the same kit roughly estimated 8-10 head variants, 8-10 torso variants, 6-10 right arm variants, 6-10 left arm varients, 4-8 leg variants, 12-16 extra detail variants(packs, coils of rope, food items, pouches, etc) and different angles you could attach all of these to each other. A kit in most aos sculpts could provide maybe 400 assembled variants(many of which requiring cutting and swapping weapons from one arm to another) versus the old sculpts several hundred thousand variants(requiring only cutting from the sprue).

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, Mwatts25 said:

Most GW minis are modular to one degree or another, im not saying there is no variation between mini sculpts. What I was saying is that in recent game editions and with the more recent sculpts, there is less “wiggle room” for variations of weapons, angles to glue arms on, stuff like that. Just as an example, using some examples from 6th edition, between various arms, heads, torsos, and legs, one could make 100’s of thousands of variations of a mini from bits in the same kit roughly estimated 8-10 head variants, 8-10 torso variants, 6-10 right arm variants, 6-10 left arm varients, 4-8 leg variants, 12-16 extra detail variants(packs, coils of rope, food items, pouches, etc) and different angles you could attach all of these to each other. A kit in most aos sculpts could provide maybe 400 assembled variants(many of which requiring cutting and swapping weapons from one arm to another) versus the old sculpts several hundred thousand variants(requiring only cutting from the sprue).

If you want good modularity, take a look at what Northstar is doing

They are even compatible between multiple sets.

[Mwatts25]

4 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

If you want good modularity, take a look at what Northstar is doing

They are even compatible between multiple sets.

True, they have lots of modular possibilities in these minis. And thats how gw minis used to be, not so much anymore. Now, to kit bash gw minis requires a lot more work. 

[yukishiro1]

GW has changed philosophy over the years when it comes to model design. Originally everything was monopose because that's what metal allows. Early plastic kits were also mostly monopose. Then they figured out they could do modular kits, and that was standard for a long time. More recently - since about 2015 or so - they have been moving back to monopose, because it allows for more dynamic posing (insert joke about model jumping off rock here), and because it allows for easy pushfit and conversion from pushfit. 

I think monopose can work, but it has to be really good. Namarti Thralls are an example in my mind of monopose done right. The gain from the more dynamic poses is worth the cost in customization. Most aren't, though. Stuff like Lumineth, there is no reason for them to be so restrictive, given how bland the posing is. 

 

 

[zilberfrid]

4 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

GW has changed philosophy over the years when it comes to model design. Originally everything was monopose because that's what metal allows. Early plastic kits were also mostly monopose. Then they figured out they could do modular kits, and that was standard for a long time. More recently - since about 2015 or so - they have been moving back to monopose, because it allows for more dynamic posing (insert joke about model jumping off rock here), and because it allows for easy pushfit and conversion from pushfit. 

I think monopose can work, but it has to be really good. Namarti Thralls are an example in my mind of monopose done right. The gain from the more dynamic poses is worth the cost in customization. Most aren't, though. Stuff like Lumineth, there is no reason for them to be so restrictive, given how bland the posing is. 

I think the Escher Necromunda kits are really good at this, very dynamic poses and a ton of options.

It's also useful if you want to extend the reach of your box, because while sculpting a body and legs is somewhat possible (especially robes) hands and heads are still beyond me.

[yukishiro1]

The Harlequins Troupe box is probably the best kit GW has ever made in terms of balancing dynamism and customization. And it even has the bonus of being one of the only kits where having everybody jumping off rocks isn't deeply silly. 

[dekay]

18 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I think the Escher Necromunda kits are really good at this, very dynamic poses and a ton of options.

Most Necromunda kits seem to be made with the old level of customisation AND current level of quality.  Some great design work on those (Delaque seem a bit more restrictive, but that's mostly a matter of pretty static poses, they're still very much customisable).

16 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

The Harlequins Troupe box is probably the best kit GW has ever made in terms of balancing dynamism and customization. And it even has the bonus of being one of the only kits where having everybody jumping off rocks isn't deeply silly. 

They shine especially when compared to the newer, similar in design and much more restrictive Banshees - despite similar poses and needing less options than Harlequins, they're basically on Namarti level of poseability. Plus, they jump off rocks. ; )

Another very flexible and dynamic unit with lots of options (while both jumping off the rocks and not looking stupid doing so) are the Drukhari Scourges. Similar era as Harlequins. Good times.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

On 1/14/2021 at 11:26 AM, yukishiro1 said:

GW has changed philosophy over the years when it comes to model design. Originally everything was monopose because that's what metal allows. Early plastic kits were also mostly monopose. Then they figured out they could do modular kits, and that was standard for a long time. More recently - since about 2015 or so - they have been moving back to monopose, because it allows for more dynamic posing (insert joke about model jumping off rock here), and because it allows for easy pushfit and conversion from pushfit. 

I think monopose can work, but it has to be really good. Namarti Thralls are an example in my mind of monopose done right. The gain from the more dynamic poses is worth the cost in customization. Most aren't, though. Stuff like Lumineth, there is no reason for them to be so restrictive, given how bland the posing is.

I also think a lot of new model kits get lumped into the mono-pose category when they still have some posing options, additional bits and/or still fairly easy to convert.  I say that because there are kits that aren't that.  Genestealer Cult Aberrants is worst for that I have encountered only having head and weapon options.  Even some weapon bits are shared between models in the same kit requiring two boxes to make all the poses available to Aberrants.  After ten, you have all possible poses without at least moderate converting.   The only fortunate thing is they are supposed to be misshapen, so you don't have to be delicate how you fill in gaps.

As for the Lumineth, I don't know how or if you really want to add more pose-ability.  Wardens are meant to be placed in an offset rank and file.  I suppose one might want the spears angled up more, but I certainly wouldn't want them angled down anymore.  Overall, I think the angle they're at is okay.  While I make sure to have a few on the build table just in case,  I also like that the Wardens naturally fit together, so their spears are at the same angle.  Which I find very important for a super highly trained military unit that would act as one.

Much of what I said about Wardens also applies to Sentinels.  To keep Shining Companies you want offset rank and file, and I want the arrow tips to all be at the same angle to demonstrate military precision and drilling.

With the Stone Guard, if they didn't have capes (which are neither for nor against) I think their hammers could have offered more posing options.  However, with the capes there is only so much that can be done that would still look natural with the way the capes flow as are being wind swept. 

The Dawn Riders are a model kit I was just happy to be done building.  Some time in the future I still plan on getting another ten, and I dread when that happens.  I can't actually remember if there was much of an ability to angle the lances or not.  If do get more, I want to have units of ten in the process of dropping their lances to charge with the next five I get filling in the angles of the lances I already have.  I assume I am going to have to convert, but I don't see that being much more difficult than just building the models themselves.

 

I think a better example, at that I have encountered, are the Warcry cultists.  I have most of them.  Most cults to offer some additional bits, but you are going to have repeats if you get the two in one box set.  Most of the models are thin, spindly and delicate and certainly don't lend themselves to changing the posing nor easy converting.  I didn't want to mess them much so to give the illusion of difference I often removed details off the second one.  My Warcry cultists are largely for my Ravagers S2D army, so I think it will be fine as they show up late, don't draw much attention and when attacked don't stay on the table long.  I can't say for sure, but the repeating would probably be a much bigger issue in actually playing Warcry since the few models bring more attention to them.

 

Ultimately, I think the mono-posing issue of more modern models (nice alliteration) of GW is more complicated than often discussed.  At least in my experience as I have built a lot of the newer stuff from GW.  Most of the time I think a lot more of what gets called mono-pose isn't and even if it is, can be converted/kitbashed a lot easier than any internet discussion I have seen makes it seem.  Well, beyond those grognards that started converting in metal.  At the same time, there are a number of newer model kits that are very hard to convert are have issues/concessions that do interfere trying to avoid copy/clone models.  I like this direction for the most part, but I also never really cared for building models and often see converting/kitbashing a necessarily evil to get a little more out of a box of models.  I can understand some loss of that comes with the design philosophy.

[Clan's Cynic]

On 1/13/2021 at 11:47 AM, Enoby said:

This is interesting, thank you. I'm not sure if it's just me, but does the AoS part sound a bit tepid? Of course, "well" could mean a lot, but it seemed a bit of a mention on the side and as if AoS would normally not be considered a top seller "including Age of Sigmar, has sold well too". I'm likely reading too much into it, but it's strange to have one of their two big games to only be mentioned in parenthesis alongside the side games. 

I wouldn't read too much into it.

Nothing will ever compare to 40k in terms of sales, except for those five minutes in 2003 that Lord of the Rings shot to the top (and then nosedived). Plus it's the year that a new edition launched which always causes a huge uptick, nevermind the amount of new Space Marine kits - I'm not making a complaint (in this post anyway), it's no secret that Marine releases equal stupid amounts of cash and there were a lot of them. 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Clan's Cynic