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AoS feels like neglacted child?


Nizrah

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The problem isnt shooting.

What shooting list are broken?

Kharadrons: due to be low drop and the broken can move of the alegiance,nerf points and the alegiance and balanced

Stormcast one drop list: nerf the big battallion so cant be played in matched play and balanced

Lumineth: nerf 20 points to lancers and 30 to archers and balanced

Shooting units cost as 30% more than melle units with same damage. Looking at numbers ranged must be bufed,the problem are others things as attack double of stormcast etc and not the ranged units

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Pretty much every shooting/magic list will win 75% or more of its games if it gets the T1/T2 double.  You rather inexplicably left off Fangs of Sotek and Tzeentch from your list of shooty armies, both of which can also delete the majority of an opponent's army over a double turn. 

It's easier to turn your list around and say: what lists right now are top-tier that *aren't* primarly ranged? Despite the vast majority of units in the game being melee-focused, the solid majority of strong lists at the moment are ranged. The melee lists that do well are either hard counters to shooting (e.g. Idoneth) or so fast and deadly that they can delete enough of a shooty army to make the shooty army go first, or the majority of it if they go second and get the double turn. 

The whole competitive meta right now seems to revolve around shooty lists, whether taking them or countering them. 

Edited by yukishiro1
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Yes i left them out because the shooting in that armys isnt the main problem.

Kroak is the danger in fang of sotek and not the skinks and the problem with tzenth is the insane number of wounds of horrors per his cost and the teleport units.

Per example city of sigmar have many shooting units and some of these are one of the best of the game in point per wound done,but city of sigmar isnt in the actual meta,and even in citys the best list is karl franz and cavalry and not shooting.

Yes there are undercosted shooting units as skinks,flamers,horrors or lumineths but that it is all.

 

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The problem with shooting and magic is fundamentally the same, that it gets to interact with an opponent who can't interact back (except to try to unbind the spells), so the advantage of the double turn is exacerbated. It's no coincidence the best lists at the moment combine shooting and magic and ruthlessly exploit how powerful both those things are when you get the T1-T2 double turn. 

Yes, you can just raise the points on magic and shooting until shooting lists can't win essentially every game they get a double turn on...but that means they'll lose almost any game they don't get the double turn on. The problem is how the double turn mechanic interacts with ranged damage. There's no good way to balance it without addressing the actual core issue: that the advantage of a double turn with a ranged army is so huge.  Double turn works with combat-based armies because the opponent gets to interact in your turn too. It just falls apart totally when the person getting double turned against can't do anything for two turns in a row. 

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4 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Then they are at a disadvantage if they don't get an early double, which is about half the time. Not particularly fair to armies which have to build that way.

So you are talking about KO? As its the only army that actually is shooting focus, well give them ore defense, more movement, and some tricks, why do they have to be only shooting? They have no Magic, lack melee, they are the Tau of AOS, its bad for the game to be only good in 1 or 2 phases of the game. 

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1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

So you are talking about KO? As its the only army that actually is shooting focus, well give them ore defense, more movement, and some tricks, why do they have to be only shooting? They have no Magic, lack melee, they are the Tau of AOS, its bad for the game to be only good in 1 or 2 phases of the game. 

Lack magic? Except abillity to take best endless spell in game (skaven triangle of doom) and cast it first turn without any risk... 

 

Lack of melee? Endrigers saws wants to talk with you...

Edited by Nizrah
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I've heard quite a few comments from 40k players being jealous of AoS because of the model quality, enough that they started playing them (Kirioth among them). There was quite a bit of "GW, just put these in 40k" at the Mortal Slaanesh reveals.

And I agree with them.

I may have stepped out of GW products mostly, but it seems that GW makes good use of AoS's design freedom to make designs that are really out there.

Same with Blood Bowl, the Snotlings especially show that, but the whole second edition box is brilliant.

For 40k, Sisters have a good aesthetic, Mechanicus gives lots of freedom, some Necrons are interesting, but that's it. Orks have received a single model, Tau not doing much better, and all the space elves haven't fared much better. The Space Stormcast did see a lot of models, but all of them look about the same.

Necromunda, again, gives more freedom, and their sets are again brilliant. Even brought back Squats without just picking up Kharadron with other guns.

I don't know anything about books though.

Edited by zilberfrid
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Considering Slaanesh gets the big push with lots of new kits in AoS first rather than 40k should say it's not neglected. They could've easily gone noise marines, daemon prince fulgrim, etc but all they've had recently is Fabious Bile?

Between Warcry, Underworlds and the main AoS line I think we're in a strong place. Would I love GW to revist/expand Ironjawz or update my favorite Dragon Ogres? Sure, but I don't think AoS players are generally starved for releases.

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10 hours ago, Doko said:

The problem isnt shooting.

What shooting list are broken?

Kharadrons: due to be low drop and the broken can move of the alegiance,nerf points and the alegiance and balanced

Stormcast one drop list: nerf the big battallion so cant be played in matched play and balanced

Lumineth: nerf 20 points to lancers and 30 to archers and balanced

Shooting units cost as 30% more than melle units with same damage. Looking at numbers ranged must be bufed,the problem are others things as attack double of stormcast etc and not the ranged units

Kharadron are not broken because the shooting, the army is designed that way and its fine and fun

 

Problem with KO its the skaven spell, its an auto cast that with they mobility they can put in the middle of your whole army, and have fun dispelling it since its a 8+ cast

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2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I've heard quite a few comments from 40k players being jealous of AoS because of the model quality, enough that they started playing them (Kirioth among them). There was quite a bit of "GW, just put these in 40k" at the Mortal Slaanesh reveals.

And I agree with them.

I may have stepped out of GW products mostly, but it seems that GW makes good use of AoS's design freedom to make designs that are really out there.

Same with Blood Bowl, the Snotlings especially show that, but the whole second edition box is brilliant.

For 40k, Sisters have a good aesthetic, Mechanicus gives lots of freedom, some Necrons are interesting, but that's it. Orks have received a single model, Tau not doing much better, and all the space elves haven't fared much better. The Space Stormcast did see a lot of models, but all of them look about the same.

Necromunda, again, gives more freedom, and their sets are again brilliant. Even brought back Squats without just picking up Kharadron with other guns.

I don't know anything about books though.

They are jealous beacause GW only release SM while i have eldar models literally older than me (and i am almost 30 yo)

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7 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Lack magic? Except abillity to take best endless spell in game (skaven triangle of doom) and cast it first turn without any risk... 

 

Lack of melee? Endrigers saws wants to talk with you...

lol 1 spell and you call it magic? Go ask CoS, Nagash, Lumineth, Seraphon, etc.. what magic really is, also that spell was nerfed, and yes they have melee but not like most melee armies, again go ask FS, DoK, IDK, etc.. what melee is.

Sure you can auto cast that spell, but many armies has ways to auto unbind the next turn. If you set up to get wreck by 1 spell then you did something wrong.

Edited by Maddpainting
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17 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

lol 1 spell and you call it magic? Go ask CoS, Nagash, Lumineth, Seraphon, etc.. what magic really is, also that spell was nerfed, and yes they have melee but not like most melee armies, again go ask FS, DoK, IDK, etc.. what melee is.

Sure you can auto cast that spell, but many armies has way to auto unbind the next turn. If you set up to get wreck by 1 spell then you did something wrong.

Thats not "magic" you are right, but a very very powerfull toll 

you forget some important points

 

1)it still does a ridicoulus amount of MW (start-end of both movement), and also nerf movement

2)you need a 8+ if i am not mistaken, and you can try to dispel it 1 time a turn and only in YOUR turn (that means if you get double you'll get the MW rain again)

3)not all armyes have powerfull dispells (ogors, KO itself, etc) let alone an auto dispel

4)its an artifact and it cost nothing, only the endless itself

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Rather than bi-annual points adjustments, GW really just need to rewrite bad warscrolls. I would gladly pay 400 points for a Mourngul when it had a 3+ unrendable save with its own 4 up wound shrug. But by lowering the cost GW can "fix the imbalances" which in turn just ends up with players needing to buy more models. It's predatory and why I rarely if ever buy GW stuff anymore.

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It seems players went down the "XYZ is bad so the core needs to change" when really its the warscrolls and points that needs ot change. The Core rules for the most part are fine and we are not neglected as a whole. Also some armies might feel neglected right now but we all have to take turns. there were times SCE had release after release, after release with full armies without rules. It happens, GW can not release everything at once as it hurts the local businesses in doing so. 

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I truly feel it is the case of the grass being greener on the other side. For the first time in my experience with the hobby every army has an updated and playable rule set.

40k just had a new edition drop and they are primarily getting individual book updates while we are getting small but entirely new ranges. But even that ties with how established the two systems are currently speaking.

Age of Sigmar is still developing and key factions have yet to be released. Whereas 40k feels like they cannot add an additional faction that isn't an expansion of a current concept (kroot, exodites, dark mechanicus, mauve space marines) because everything is so deeply established both in lore and brand identity.

When 3.0 drops and we are getting a new army book for each faction, the 40k players will likely be the ones complaining. But it will also be the moment they get a new faction or update that leave us salivating. Of course those who play both systems have all the fun but all of the expense so maybe the grass is greener on this side, as I can afford to eat (sometimes).

Edited by Neverchosen
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1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

It seems players went down the "XYZ is bad so the core needs to change" when really its the warscrolls and points that needs ot change. The Core rules for the most part are fine and we are not neglected as a whole. Also some armies might feel neglected right now but we all have to take turns. there were times SCE had release after release, after release with full armies without rules. It happens, GW can not release everything at once as it hurts the local businesses in doing so. 

Yeah, like khorne before and slaneesh now 

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I've been feeling the burn of the way GW has been handling the lockdowns as well, but they're a business with shareholders to please. Its pretty obvious at this point that the AOS schedule was pushed back ~6 months by the lockdowns, while the 40k one was kept as close to schedule as they could (leading up to indomitus at least). SoB and Lumineth were both supposed to predate the GHB which normally releases in June, but were pushed way back so they could get indomitus out at the start of their fiscal year. Slaanesh was absolutely supposed to be out already, probably around september initially, and I imagine GW had originally intended to release or officially reveal the new death release around Halloween so they probably should've released in 2020 or very early 2021.  Basically AOS has been 6 months behind schedule for like half a year now, and it doesn't look like we're in line to catch up anytime soon.

 

19 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Another thing... Where the duck is winter faq??? 

We could end up waiting a while, if we're ~6 months behind schedule, and they made the FAQ with some of those releases in mind they might not want to re-edit everything to clean it up and instead just wait until we're closer to the releases and everything has been shown off.

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18 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

The problem with shooting and magic is fundamentally the same, that it gets to interact with an opponent who can't interact back (except to try to unbind the spells), so the advantage of the double turn is exacerbated. It's no coincidence the best lists at the moment combine shooting and magic and ruthlessly exploit how powerful both those things are when you get the T1-T2 double turn. 

Yes, you can just raise the points on magic and shooting until shooting lists can't win essentially every game they get a double turn on...but that means they'll lose almost any game they don't get the double turn on. The problem is how the double turn mechanic interacts with ranged damage. There's no good way to balance it without addressing the actual core issue: that the advantage of a double turn with a ranged army is so huge.  Double turn works with combat-based armies because the opponent gets to interact in your turn too. It just falls apart totally when the person getting double turned against can't do anything for two turns in a row. 

Sounds like the issue is mission design related more than army related.

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2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

 if we're ~6 months behind schedule, and they made the FAQ with some of those releases in mind they might not want to re-edit everything to clean it up and instead just wait until we're closer to the releases and everything has been shown off.

I mean.  I'm a dyed-in-the-wool GW fanboy here, but I've got a computer with MS Word, a mouse, and a backspace key.  I could probably delete the unwanted sections in about 12 minutes...

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On 1/3/2021 at 9:53 AM, Nizrah said:

The sheer amount of books thats Wh40k get is just much bigger. Also looking at AoS. Everyone saying that SCE are in good place just really dont play at the competetive level... This army is in very bad place and the idea itself that big guys clad in armor made from core of the old war their only way to win is to make shooting roster because they are way to weak at melee is disaster. Stormcast doesnt need needs new models. They have enough of it. But they NEED NEW BOOK with fixed warscrolls. Most of the SCE warscrolls were unchanged since edition 0 of AoS, times before first GH. 

My sources thats were quite correct in the past says -> Slaanesh -> DoK, Broken Realms 2 ( new LRL) -> Broken Realms 3 -> Broken Realms 4 (  Vampirates for underlord) -> SCE + AoS 3.0 -> Deepkiny i Maggotkin

Armies like Sylvaneth, SCE, NH, LoN are in dire need of new book and yet they focus on Wh40k. 

More new DoK models?  

 

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