Broken Realms: Morathi - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary

[Vurtias]

On the one hand I dont mind if slaanesh remains imprisoned as this Newborn seems like it will serve as an avatar of slaanesh, moreso than any greater daemon could, which is a huge bone to throw for slaanesh still being a major active threat to the realms.

However, I dont know how many times I could stand slaanesh being close to being freed and them doing the same plot over and over again. Archaon was close, the new seekers warband find the gateway to his prison and it is highly likely we might see some sort of hedonite crusade lead by the Newborn in trying to release him, maybe with Archaon although it depends how they want to handle him since Wrath of the Everchosen.

I dont think they will kill of this Newborn character in the Broken Realm series as it gives them a much more tangible way of demonstrating the threat of slaanesh in the realms.

[Lord of the Isle]

If the Newborn is truly its parent’s worthy child and heir it may not even want to release its sire/mother

[stratigo]

17 hours ago, Overread said:

Well its not as if orruks get on with each other let alone Gloomspite, Ogors or Gargants.

 

Think of GW like "First and Third World" terms we use in the real world. We use them as terms to describe economic and social development. Within those groups you see similarities and patterns and alliance blocks. The Grand Alliances are the same, you don't have to be friends with anyone (Idoneth actively harvest souls from humans/aelves from Order all the time - the only reason they are in all out war is likely because the other GA don't have a powerful undersea force sufficient to wipe out the Idoneth- when they remember that they are there). 

So there can be war within a GA, its perfectly natural. Indeed with chaos beaten back somewhat and with power struggles within a GA its to be expected that there will be a struggle for dominance, influence and power in what is recovered. Such events are just what chaos can use to sow discontent, chaos and corruption as well as to leave Order forces weaker from within and thus ripe for invasion. 

It helps prevent the GA becoming all powerful and unable to be assaulted except by another GA

First and Third world were terms to define strategic alliances in the cold war era. The First being NATO and friends, the Second the WARPAC and friends, the third everyone else.

 

The baggage about economic and social development got injected because here in the west we're arrogant and decided that the people who largely don't look like us are also just inherently less advanced. And that's why it's okay to sponsor coups or invade and demolish their institutions, then do a shocked pikachu face when they are poor and the people don't like us. The Kissinger quote sums up this philosophy perfectly "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."

 

I caution using the idea of first or third worlds as any sort of metric of who is and is not socially or economically developed. They're terms that weren't coined to mean these things, and aren't used by any experts on the topic of international politics or economics, which prefer the terms developed and developing for descriptors of post industrial and industrializing states. 

 

 

As for grand alliances, I think they're kind of vestigial from the origin of AoS when GW just wanted people to buy models and not really think about playing the games at all. Order has always been in tension with itself as an alliance and frankly I'd prefer to see them just flatly get rid of grand alliances as a whole. They're not needed really, when's the last time someone played a grand alliance army? The alliance matrix and the new 1/4 rule a lot of armies are getting is a better replacement. 

[Neverchosen]

It is funny that people have such an aversion to Grand Alliances when I genuinely love them. I think they create really fun and interesting rules and narrative dynamics for narrative or multiplayer games.

For example if a group of friends have 2 Destruction players and 2 Order players teaming up along allegiance lines it makes sense thematically and rules-wise, as some synergies may exist. Conversely breaking it up along opposing forces (Destruction and Order vs Destruction and Order) also creates a balance through the lack of synergy.
Now if two players play Chaos and the others play death and destruction, it might make sense to team up the Chaos players for narrative reasons or split them apart if synergies would create imbalance. This way neither the rules nor the narrative purpose of grand alliances dictates the allocation of armies to a side but rather makes you consider which armies make the best and worst allies for your own games. My friend plays Tzeentch and I play Slaves to Darkness whereas two of our friends play Legions of Nagash, so we are planning on having a massive Chaos vs Death battle and we look forward to seeing masses of skeletons clash with Vikings and Demons. 

Conversely you may have access to multiple armies and play one on one but still construct a narrative around your factions using the grand alliances. Maybe run a mixed army of Orruks and Grots but then have a narrative event split them apart creating multiple factions within your narrative. Of course this is possible sans special rules and designations but having pre built rules helps with balance and getting a game ready much quicker.

Order is a particularly messy alliance in terms of narrative and rules as it is hilariously non-specific. There are some ways people have wished to address this such as splitting off the Aelves or creating essentially a good and bad side to Order. However, I think that is the very charm of Order as an alliance,  is that it is comprised of the factions that are willing to work alongside one another despite their difference for the sake of a greater goal. Space Lizards and Half Naked Witches understand they share a common goal, Atheist Sky Mercenaries will work alongside religious zealots if the pay is right and it saves the world. Furthermore, it creates fun tensions between rival armies within alliances that can be resolved with future games: a Khorne and Slaanesh player may feel incentivized to play a follow up game to declare the true winner after allying... and the defeated Lumineth and Idoneth players may have a follow up game resolving their nations going to war for blaming the other for the loss of the battle. 

Now to get back to the topic at hand... I am so hyped for the ascension of Morathi, she is by far my favourite character in the lore and I am also really excited for the return of Slaanesh. This book has me very excited despite being someone who is not an avid lore follower. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Neverchosen

[Icegoat]

On 11/7/2020 at 7:55 PM, Doko said:

As city of sigmar players i really dont like the book.

 

First see how my citys(alegiances) seems gonna be deleted one by one in each book and replaced by new downgraded citys with worse rules.

Second see how armys at the same lvl or better than citys get huge buffs as idoneths while citys dont get anything dont have sense,how is posible the sorceress in dragon have a save of 5 and nothing more,and only cast one spell for 300 points when per name a old and new example,the verminlords have a 4 save and special save of 4 and cast 2 spells for less points,or the new idoneth mage who have a save of 3 and special save of 4 and cast 2 spells.

So easy to see that the sorceress needd a save 4 and special save of 5 with two cast to be at the level of all the similar models of others armys

 

But i hope old citys never gonna be deleted (the rules) and we have old citys and these news for who want play them and who knows if any of these future citys gonna be a dwarf city and i gonna can play my dispossesed+fyreslayers in the same list.

 

Ok now not all is grudges,the book lore is great and i would like to know who is the bat wing who saved the stormcast,maybe a new vampire faction coming and this vampire is one old familiar who has fallen to the curse? Or maybe be malerion who fused with his dragon at the end of times and so have wings.

 

I think is the vampire and we gonna see maybe a vampire new army with the release of the death book

 

But if

Dude cities was always going to go the way of the dodo its exciting to see where humans of the realms end up after this. 

Cities are finally finished I think and I'm sure what comes next will actually be something new at least. Whether it's actually good is something else entirely.

[Public Universal Duardin]

I'll just voice my baseless speculation, but I wonder whether Har Kuron exists as a way to entice Total War Warhammer players - after all, Morathi is essentially forming Naggaroth 2.0 (with blackjack and Medusae!). Or if I am allowed to go full tin-foil mode: Har Kuron exists as a way to keep the old Dark Elf models around so they (along some DoK units) can be ported wholesale to The Old World whenever that game launches, without having to redesign Dark Elves again.

On same note, I wonder if Slaanesh's baby is a way for GW to re-introduce Slaanesh without some of the...baggage...that their character may have to the corporate eyes of geedubs. We all remember the rumours that Slaanesh was risking squatting and I wonder if the rumours may have at least partially been based on truth - as now GW gets to keep the cake and eat it too - continue having Slaanesh chained in lore so GW can release as many elf factions as they please while also having a 'New Slaanesh' running around in the Mortal Realms/Realm of Chaos.

Oh, what I would give for the knowledge of what GW has planned for the future of the Realms...

[shinros]

54 minutes ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

I'll just voice my baseless speculation, but I wonder whether Har Kuron exists as a way to entice Total War Warhammer players - after all, Morathi is essentially forming Naggaroth 2.0 (with blackjack and Medusae!). Or if I am allowed to go full tin-foil mode: Har Kuron exists as a way to keep the old Dark Elf models around so they (along some DoK units) can be ported wholesale to The Old World whenever that game launches, without having to redesign Dark Elves again.

On same note, I wonder if Slaanesh's baby is a way for GW to re-introduce Slaanesh without some of the...baggage...that their character may have to the corporate eyes of geedubs. We all remember the rumours that Slaanesh was risking squatting and I wonder if the rumours may have at least partially been based on truth - as now GW gets to keep the cake and eat it too - continue having Slaanesh chained in lore so GW can release as many elf factions as they please while also having a 'New Slaanesh' running around in the Mortal Realms/Realm of Chaos.

Oh, what I would give for the knowledge of what GW has planned for the future of the Realms...

Baggage you say? I disagree. It's quite an old argument I have heard many times and continually been disproven. I bet you the newborn is the "mortal" special character. Each faction has one. Also it wasn't a rumour, that argument appeared from the players who were upset that warhammer fantasy was gone and was merely using the "rumour" to remain angry and to prove that AOS was made mainly for kids. No matter how many times actual rumour mongers, writers and designers told us otherwise. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by shinros

[Public Universal Duardin]

24 minutes ago, shinros said:

Baggage you say? I disagree. It's quite an old argument I have heard many times and continually it's been disproven. I bet you the newborn is the "mortal" special character. Each faction has one. Also it wasn't a rumour, that argument appeared from the players upset that warhammer fantasy was gone and was using anything to latch onto. No matter how many times actual rumour mongers, writers and designers told us otherwise. 

I...partly agree but, well, guess trying to skirt around the 'no politics' rule would lead to miscommunication.

 

The thing is, Slaanesh is the deity of excess - that means an extremely obese glutton, a drunkard drowning himself in ale to forget everything but the moment, a person whose vanity knows no bounds...even an overzealous priest whose excess leads him to hunt anything even remotely unorthodox all end up feeding Slaanesh. Yet, in terms of models, we have thus far only gotten models focusing on sexuality*. Slaanesh's ambigious gender identity is more of a joke around the community - although most prevalent among 40K fans, hints of it can even be seen on this board. Stories regarding Slaanesh's mortal followers often - at least used to - include aspects such as sexual violence (although more often hinted, than outright described) and sadomasochism.

This article is a couple years old and although focusing on 40K, still makes more or sense in the context of AoS re: Slaanesh. And while one may think the example used in the article is merely one of extremes, it is one I myself have seen one time too many.

THAT is the baggage of Slaanesh, not 'we cannot have bare ****** on a miniature' (after all, we already have Drycha and nobody has any issues with that).

* I see hints of this changing, such as the new Underworlds warband...I was extremely happy over them! Looking oppulent and covered in baubles, some of the models looked outright perfect!

[shinros]

29 minutes ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

 

 

I think you should take the time to read the hedonite battletome and stories. Also why trust articles from people outside the hobby over the actual designers, writers and people who handle the setting itself? The Hedonite battletome, in my opinion is quite an adult one considering the contents of it and the artwork. You can even see the clear hints of opulence and jewelry in the lower two artworks, along with the sadomasicism, even on the daemons. So here's my opinion. Don't worry about it, those people you're talking about are not being listened to by the design team or anyone else. Actions prove that in the art, the model design and so on. 

Also from the designers.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/26/slaanesh-designer-insightsgw-homepage-post-3/ 

Ben: I started off by making a list of words for the Slaanesh models that would go on to help the designers when they made them.

Edited November 8, 2020 by shinros

[Public Universal Duardin]

27 minutes ago, shinros said:

 

Oh, I want to make it clear that I am by no mean a Slaanesh-hater - they have been my favourite Chaos deity, well, as long as I have been aware of Warhammer. There is something extremely fascinating with Slaanesh - while Khorne plays on humanity's sad history of violence, Nurgle on our fears of illness and death (something that feels very relevant in this cursed year), Tzeentch on humanity's thirst for knowledge and desire to control our own fate's...Slaanesh targets perhaps the most 'human' of humanity's weaknesses. Yet, there used to be a time - pre-AoS - when stories featuring Slaaneshi mortals were focusing more on the negative sexual aspects of the deity (and forgetting any problematic aspects of such a portrayal, it is much less narratively interesting than excess in other fields).

Thus, I cannot deny that there is a very real possibility I have never given 'modern' Slaanesh a real chance and have just let the opinions of random outsiders influence my view, instead of material actually produced by GW.

Those design notes are very encouraging (and the current Keeper of Secrets model perhaps my favourite demon model, if not any GW model, of all time).

I'll give those stories a new chance - thank you!

[dirkdragonslayer]

5 hours ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

 

This article is a couple years old and although focusing on 40K, still makes more or sense in the context of AoS re: Slaanesh. And while one may think the example used in the article is merely one of extremes, it is one I myself have seen one time too many.

THAT is the baggage of Slaanesh, not 'we cannot have bare ****** on a miniature' (after all, we already have Drycha and nobody has any issues with that).

* I see hints of this changing, such as the new Underworlds warband...I was extremely happy over them! Looking oppulent and covered in baubles, some of the models looked outright perfect!

I mean, AoS 1.0 avoided Slaanesh pretty bad, but 2.0 seemed to lean back into it pretty well. If you want the lewd the new Fiends are covered in bare ****** and the Contorted Epitome has a mirror shaped like a stretched open... ya know. All the new daemons have garish and excessive decorations, and the underworlds warband seems to embrace this too.

Also one thing I like is that their first named Daemon Prince, Syll'esske, has a love story which kind of subverts the trope-y parts of Slaanesh. They are god of debauchery, lust, and excess but are also the god of strong emotions. As sappy as it is, love is a strong emotion and motivator and is really unique among a faction that is typically over-simplified to "drugs, BDSM, and sex."

Edited November 9, 2020 by dirkdragonslayer

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

One thing I appreciate about Broken Realms is that GW are not afraid to change the status quo. I think if we want to avoid the narrative getting stale, then we should be accepting of some things being removed and new things being introduced, such as the fall of Anvilguard and Har Kuron. Even in the worst case for Anvilguard players where the Anvilguard rules are removed completely at the start of the next edition, by telegraphing this change now at least there will be time to prepare. In any case, for the time being Anvilguard rules are still around and Misthavn seems like a good replacement if they go eventually.

I think for the health of the game we should accept that it's not feasible to indefinitely support all armies, allegiances or models. If we can get GW to provide a statement such as "Everything with a battletome will be around for at least one more edition" or "If something is removed in the narrative, that means it won't be in the next edition", I think we'd be in a good place.

I'm also going to throw out a few predicitons for fun:

Ven Brecht was rescured by one of Mannfred von Carsteins agents and we will see a new Death army over the course of Broken Realms that answers to Mannfred.

Slaanesh will not get a significant range expansion during Broken Realms beyond what they already got, but will at the start of AoS 3.0. The Newborn will be a new god model on par with Nagash and friends.

Cities of Sigmar will not be done away with over the course of Broken Realms. If anything, we will get extra cities.

Orruk Warclans will get a range expansion similar to what DoK got: A new hero and at least one unit. Gorkamorka will not get a model.

[SunStorm]

So I guess it's all speculation, but what's the difference between this new offspring of Slaanesh and a Daemon, aren't they already made from parts of the chaos gods themselves?

Or are they saying it's one of the elven souls that had previously been eaten, being birthed into a new form?

 

[Lhurgoyf]

4 hours ago, SunStorm said:

So I guess it's all speculation, but what's the difference between this new offspring of Slaanesh and a Daemon, aren't they already made from parts of the chaos gods themselves?

Or are they saying it's one of the elven souls that had previously been eaten, being birthed into a new form?

 

I guess the nice thing about how vague the Morathi book was is that its anyone's guess what The Newborn really is. Demon, godly replacement, or mortal champion a la a mini Archaon.

Personally I'd like the Newborn to take Slaanesh in a new direction. Not in terms of model design, but I'd like Slaanesh to be more ambiguous in alignment. Don't want to get too heavy handed but since we've already dipped our toesies into the sexual politics of the Dark Prince: The article universal Duardin posted was pretty clear that the problem with Slaanesh isn't that it's too sexual for warhammer, it's that by being a chaos god and representing those things, it implies that they are necessarily evil, and a lot of the fan base doesn't totally understand the distinction / satire of it all.

 

So imagine a Newborn child of Slaanesh who isn't part of the chaos pantheon, but perhaps still won't join sigmar and still constitutes a threat to the realms. Doesn't that sort of fix a lot of the issues it seems like GW has with the faction? I think they're set up to do this in 40k too. There's an Elven plot to kill Slaanesh using Ynnead. I could easily see that plot failing and succeeding at the same time, killing the old Slaanesh but birthing something new that takes the same range people love but gives it a new role in the setting.

 

Either way I'll grab a box or two when the new Slaanesh mortals come out, just to have a Warcry warband even if I don't want to build a whole army.

[sandlemad]

19 hours ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

I...partly agree but, well, guess trying to skirt around the 'no politics' rule would lead to miscommunication.

The thing is, Slaanesh is the deity of excess - that means an extremely obese glutton, a drunkard drowning himself in ale to forget everything but the moment, a person whose vanity knows no bounds...even an overzealous priest whose excess leads him to hunt anything even remotely unorthodox all end up feeding Slaanesh. Yet, in terms of models, we have thus far only gotten models focusing on sexuality*. Slaanesh's ambigious gender identity is more of a joke around the community - although most prevalent among 40K fans, hints of it can even be seen on this board. Stories regarding Slaanesh's mortal followers often - at least used to - include aspects such as sexual violence (although more often hinted, than outright described) and sadomasochism.

This article is a couple years old and although focusing on 40K, still makes more or sense in the context of AoS re: Slaanesh. And while one may think the example used in the article is merely one of extremes, it is one I myself have seen one time too many.

THAT is the baggage of Slaanesh, not 'we cannot have bare ****** on a miniature' (after all, we already have Drycha and nobody has any issues with that).

* I see hints of this changing, such as the new Underworlds warband...I was extremely happy over them! Looking oppulent and covered in baubles, some of the models looked outright perfect!

Thanks for linking that article, it's good stuff (as long as you don't read the comments...). While I agree that GW is both not particularly toning down the sexual element in Slaanesh, there does appear to be an effort to broaden the aesthetic and conceptual space beyond that somewhat: e.g. the WHU warband (though as good as they look, their designs flirt with some unfortunate orientalism), and the mirror thing with a focus on avarice and wealth, and generally the emphasis on refinement in other model designs. Opulence, elitism, perfection-seeking, etc.

GW isn't about to throw Slaanesh away and the idea that they were was almost entirely (and sometimes knowingly incorrect) fan speculation but I do think GW is trying to tread a little carefully for fear of indulging the unpleasant and toxic attitudes you mention, which are indeed sadly pretty common among a lot of 40k fans especially and can make the hobby a rather unwelcoming place.

Specifically on the baggage, I though Kieron Gillen's slightly older article, "On Slaanesh" was excellent on this subject and makes the point that while Slaanesh is heavily freighted with strong and 'problematic' meanings ( associating queerness with decadence and monstrousness, basically), there are ways of addressing that. One is, as discussed, to broaden the conceptual space around Slaanesh to include. Another would be to add more representation elsewhere in the range so there isn't a 1:1 association between queerness/whatever and monstrosity - "to put it another way – the queerer they make the Eldar, and the more ****** content there is elsewhere in Warhammer 40k, the less problematic Slaanesh becomes" - and so Slaanesh doesn't have to bear all the weight of these associations, freeing up some conceptual space.

It will be interesting to see how GW takes this. The Newborn certainly does offer them a chance to shake things up somewhat - narratively? in the worldbuilding? that at least seems to be a big part of the Broken Realms project - even if all the evidence suggests they won't do that to the exclusion of Slaanesh's existing concept and aesthetic.

Edited November 9, 2020 by sandlemad

[Emperor of Zhong]

Baseless speculation, Slaanesh has a tummy full of Elf Souls, which one caved and became the offspring of Slaanesh?

[Lord of the Isle]

Clearly Aethis, the Poet King of Saphery

[Rhivan]

Aenarion had to get out of Slaanesh somehow. I mean Morathi killed his friends

[Icarion]

So one of things I had wondered about concerning reclaimed Aelf souls is where do they go when they die? Since AoS Aelves share more parallels with 40k Aeldari than older warhammer elves did, I had wondered if their souls are devoured/drawn back to Slaanesh, instead of (presumably) ending up in shyish.

The end of section 2 in Morathi might have an answer in this.

Morathi, saves a number of Cythai souls from within Slaanesh and gifts them to Volturnos as a way to cement an alliance, these were his kin. The cythai of course being the first reclaimed aelf souls, meaning that a large number of them had been reclaimed by Teclis, shaped into cythai, died, and then wound up back inside slaanesh.

I wonder if this is just an Idoneth trait of their soul damage, or if most reclaimed Aelf souls end up back in slaanesh baring outside interference. 

[Overread]

I was under the impression that Aelf souls would head to one of the myriad of underworlds within Shyish. This would more likely mean that they'd either exist within a realm that consumed by Nagash and thus are part of Nagash's legions or they are likely at war or nearly at war with Nagash's ever expanding Death Empire in the realm. 

As for souls ending up back inside Slaanesh; my impression was that Slaanesh could not consume more souls because Slaanesh is locked away within the prison. However it might be that souls consumed by Slaanesh's servants in the realms do get transferred into Slaanesh. This would allow Slaanesh to have consumed more current (realms) souls and not just Old World souls. It also fits with the lore since Demons, Greater Demons and such are all simply an extension in part of their parent Deity within the Warp. So what they consume can pass too Slaanesh even though Slaanesh is imprisoned.

[Icarion]

8 minutes ago, Overread said:

I was under the impression that Aelf souls would head to one of the myriad of underworlds within Shyish. This would more likely mean that they'd either exist within a realm that consumed by Nagash and thus are part of Nagash's legions or they are likely at war or nearly at war with Nagash's ever expanding Death Empire in the realm. 

As for souls ending up back inside Slaanesh; my impression was that Slaanesh could not consume more souls because Slaanesh is locked away within the prison. However it might be that souls consumed by Slaanesh's servants in the realms do get transferred into Slaanesh. This would allow Slaanesh to have consumed more current (realms) souls and not just Old World souls. It also fits with the lore since Demons, Greater Demons and such are all simply an extension in part of their parent Deity within the Warp. So what they consume can pass too Slaanesh even though Slaanesh is imprisoned.

But we now have a clear example of Aelf souls being reclaimed, and then winding up back inside slaanesh, all after he was bound.

I can't remember reading anything about slaanesh's capture meaning he could no longer consume souls. 

Remember that for chaos worshipers who devote themselves to one of the gods, their soul is not drawn to shyish but is instead drawn to the realm of chaos and to their specific god. I would imagine that it is the same for Slaanesh, or else, what would happen to the souls of his followers after death?

My main question is if souls reclaimed from slaanesh (which all still have a lingering slaaneshi corruption, even the Lumineth) share that trait that their souls are naturally drawn back to the realm of chaos/slaanesh as if they had been slaaneshi worshipers, not by choice, but simply due to the nature of their souls corruption.

For example, we know that the Idoneth fear what will happen to them after death, so they store the souls of their dead in an enclaves Chorrelium.

There could also be a difference between first generation reclaimed souls (ala cythai, scathborn, first generation Lumineth) and their later offspring, the latter while still carrying the taint of Slaanesh, are not naturally drawn back after death. 

 

[frostfire]

Some argue that  when Morathi  saw Aenarion in Slannesh's belly she should have tried to rescue him at all cost instead of ripping his soul off.

[novakai]

did they specify what happen to his soul after he sunder Morathi in two?

[Icarion]

He is still in slaanesh

[Lord of the Isle]

Unless he isn’t!