gabbi Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) Friends, today, while assembling Defiled Ruins set, I made a dire discovery. This is Sigmar. These are skulls. Sigmar collects skulls at his feet. Sigmar is KHORNE! Edited October 31, 2020 by gabbi 2 3 13 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperAgent Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 SKULLS FOR THE SIGMAR THRONE!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Everyone uses skulls for decoration - don't you?! That said Sigmar's army IS technically an undead force. They are all reforged bodies of flesh animated by the souls of the once alive brought back to life once again by Sigmar. So yes he is running an undead army of animated bodies. That they are healthy looking and not rotting or falling apart simply shows that he's rather skilled at it which likely really needles Nagash! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayul Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Overread said: Everyone uses skulls for decoration - don't you?! That said Sigmar's army IS technically an undead force. They are all reforged bodies of flesh animated by the souls of the once alive brought back to life once again by Sigmar. So yes he is running an undead army of animated bodies. That they are healthy looking and not rotting or falling apart simply shows that he's rather skilled at it which likely really needles Nagash! I want to disagree here. SCE's souls leave their former vessel entirely and become an elemental essence. It is then captured and crafted into a new living human body by a deity, not a lich or a necromancer to subdue it. They are more like homunkuli, sentient and benevolent even. The whole conflict between Sigmar and Nagash is based on the circumstance that Nagash can't ressurrect those warriors for his explicitly undead army. Ergo one of the worst scenarios for a SCE is to get captured by Nagash. Only being devoured by an ogre is worse, because that actually ends their existence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Ahh but Nagash is also a godly deity as well. His Ossiarchs are very similar, only instead of bodies of flesh they have bodies of bone; and instead of one soul, Nagash merges them into many souls. Don't forget those Stormcast can often forget huge chunks of their past as their souls are beaten into new bodies. Forged through fire and tempered out again. Remade and reborn and tormented each time they are reforged. Stripping away more and more of their past and leaving them with nothing but a burning drive to fight Chaos. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Klatz Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Off-topic but does that God-king statue make anyone else want to make a Stonecast army with him a proxy Celestant-Prime that hops around like a Zelda Armos as they vengefully animate to smite chaos? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jator Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 I can see Khorne spawning a minor god to oppose himself and thus have even more fun war. Would make the setting too sour, thou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayul Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 6 hours ago, Overread said: Ahh but Nagash is also a godly deity as well. His Ossiarchs are very similar, only instead of bodies of flesh they have bodies of bone; and instead of one soul, Nagash merges them into many souls. Don't forget those Stormcast can often forget huge chunks of their past as their souls are beaten into new bodies. Forged through fire and tempered out again. Remade and reborn and tormented each time they are reforged. Stripping away more and more of their past and leaving them with nothing but a burning drive to fight Chaos. Right, but after this whole exertion SCE end up as living beings with a heartbeat, instincts and an individual mind. Most undeads in the Mortal Realms are deformed and grotesque creatures*. This is proven by Pharus Thaum, a SCE who fell and became a servant of Nagash. Him and Arkhan put him in an actual undead walking body and broke his soul. The only occasion a SCE could be called "undead" might be when Sigmar fails to reforge fallen SCE so they become wild Lightning-Gheists. But that's disputable. Those are elemental entities not corpses and they aren't part of Sigmar's forces. So technically Sigmar's army IS NOT an undead force under any known circumstance. * Despite maybe (anachronistic) Soulblight, but they still share all of the characteristics of a corpse, because that's what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorthor21 Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 In a way stormcast eternals are Undead creatures as they are a spirit that is manipulated by an external force. They are devoted to Sigmar utterly and bound to him in the same way the most powerful undead are bound to Nagash and merely extensions of him. I think the difference is in the disposition of their masters I.e. Nagash limits their independence due to his megalomania and Sigmar gives his greater free will as that’s a facet of the human condition that he believes strongly in. I would go as far as to say that eternals who have undergone numerous reforgings and loose their personalities to the point of appearing as automations are more akin to Nagash‘a undead than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthMusketeer Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Fluff implies that most SCE are taken from their mortal lives when they are still alive (the moment before they would die being relatively common timing). Anvils of the Heldenhammer are special in that all (or at least most) of them were already dead. That is why Nagash finds them particularly offensive. The reforming process happens instead of actually dying, so the average Stormcast will never have actually died even if they have been reforged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverchosen Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 I want Azazel back... 😢 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EccentricCircle Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 (edited) Ha! In the good old days, all gods were aspects of Khorne! And we liked it! Or at least there are some very long standing conspiracy theories, as to precisely how the Chaos Gods present themselves to mortals, and how that influenced the religion of the old world. So the obvious one first, and the one which used to be actual canon; Khaine. So the old books actually don't beat about the bush at all on this one. "Khaine" is explicitly spelt out to be the elvish name for Khorne, and this is 100% reflected in the khornate iconography carried by witch elves. Look at the cover of the 1990's Dark Elves book, or the battle standards of the last metal witch elves. The skull rune of Khorne is right there on their shields. Next up we have Sotek, bloody handed god of the skinks. Unlike the other deities worshipped by the lizardmen, Sotek is explicitly on an Old One, but rather something else, which made a deal with Tenehuini to help his people to defeat the Skaven, in exchange for bloody sacrifices and the offering of skulls. Beyond the blood and skulls we can't say for sure that this entity is Khorne, but it certainly seems to be one sort of Chaos God. The holy symbol of Sotek is of course the twin tailed comet, that appeared in the skies as he drove clan pestilens from Lustria. This corresponded with the comet heralding the birth of Sigmar over in the old world... Which brings us to everyone's favourite god of hammers. I know of less direct evidence that the "sigmar" worshipped by the empire was actually the guise of a chaos god, however there is a lot of circumstantial theological evidence. First we need to understand how gods work in the warhammer universe. Essentially faith and belief shape reality. There is a case to be made that the historical Sigmar didn't actually ascend to godhood in the literal sense. Rather his followers believed he did, and their belief influenced the Realm of Chaos, creating something vaguely Sigmar shaped, which embodied all the ideals and values which they believed he should embody. Is it still a chaos god if it fights for law? Does originating in the immaterial make it irredeemably tainted by chaos even if no one realises that? Does Tzeetch move in mysterious ways, and play the long game even if that means defeating himself in the process? Are any of the Chaos Gods above posing as another deity, if they think it will get them more skulls for the skull throne? As a different emperor once said "only now, at the end, do you understand..." Far more detail can be found here on this TV tropes wild mass guessing page: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/Warhammer I kind of love this sort of theological speculation, and think its great that Warhammer lore really used to embrace it, and leave itself really open to interpretation. Edited November 1, 2020 by EccentricCircle 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ggom Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 What EccentricCircle said. It could not have been said better. Also, and this is a play on words - chaos is entropy (increasing disorder.) All processes lead to increasing entropy (thermodynamics law.) Therefore, all things that exist serve Chaos. In the end, only Chaos can win. (Maximum entropy.) Obviously, sigmar is CHAOS! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 On 10/31/2020 at 3:27 PM, Bayul said: I want to disagree here. SCE's souls leave their former vessel entirely and become an elemental essence. It is then captured and crafted into a new living human body by a deity, not a lich or a necromancer to subdue it. They are more like homunkuli, sentient and benevolent even. The whole conflict between Sigmar and Nagash is based on the circumstance that Nagash can't ressurrect those warriors for his explicitly undead army. Ergo one of the worst scenarios for a SCE is to get captured by Nagash. Only being devoured by an ogre is worse, because that actually ends their existence. The Sigmar/Nagash issue is also that Sigmar is perverting the natural cycle of life where the natural order is that all souls travel to Shyish*. There are odd hints that some of the knowledge about reforging was gleaned from Nagash. I think one of the cleverest things about AoS is that it highlights that "good" is a matter of perspective. Sigmar is largely seen as the the most benevolent god because he's ultimately wishes to protect the largest population (humans, duardin, aelves). However Sigmar has himself committed various atrocities, for example, Dragon Ogors are the natural occupants of Azyr but were driven out by Sigmar. He's also back stabbed other dieties in the past such as when he changed the Enlightenment Engines Teclis made. * I'll of course mention nothing about the fact that Nagash pulls souls out of their afterlife and makes them fight & work for him 3 hours ago, Ggom said: Also, and this is a play on words - chaos is entropy (increasing disorder.) All processes lead to increasing entropy (thermodynamics law.) Therefore, all things that exist serve Chaos. In the end, only Chaos can win. (Maximum entropy.) One interesting thing about Chaos was made by Aaron Dembski Bowden (it was in relation to 40k, but still stands here) in that Chaos cannot win because by winning they'll lose. We saw this touched upon during the Age of Chaos where largely Khorne was running ascendant - his followers had basically ran out of things to fight so started to fight themselves. If left long enough Khorne would have basically ran out of followers or at least weakened themselves to the point where there were not enough of them left. Sigmar opening the gates of Azyr when he did was ultimately a blessing for Khorne who could grow stronger on the fighting. You almost could write a book on Philosophy within the Mortal Realms, because if you think about it, conflict is actually at the central core of every deity going and there would be an argument that without conflict none of the gods could exist. Even during the time Age of Myth a time of relative piece, part of the focus was taming the realms by smashing god beasts out of the way! Ultimately I believe that all gods are made out of the same "stuff", fuelled by conflict, just in chaos it's a lot more focused. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EccentricCircle Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 4 hours ago, Ggom said: What EccentricCircle said. It could not have been said better. Also, and this is a play on words - chaos is entropy (increasing disorder.) All processes lead to increasing entropy (thermodynamics law.) Therefore, all things that exist serve Chaos. In the end, only Chaos can win. (Maximum entropy.) Obviously, sigmar is CHAOS! Thanks! And of course that leads to the other great irony of Chaos... The only way to defeat it forever is the total victory of the undead. As far as I know the idea was first proposed (explicitly at least) In the Liber Necris of Manfred von Carstein. He put forward the idea that if everyone and everything would be turned into mind less zombies enthralled to the will if a single undead being then the warp would quiet, and the chaos gods would starve. This more or less remains Nagash' plan, ans is pretty much what he's been working towards since ascending to godhood. But if course that pesky Sigmar keeps standing in his way and fighting for life and self determination the very things that keep chaos strong. Of course there's a fair chance it actually wouldn't work anyway. The Chaos Gods have been shown to be pan dimensional beings, drawing power from every universe that touches the Realm of Chaos. Archaon thought he could kill them by destroying the world, but they just wandered off to other universes. So Nagash would have to triumph in the Realms, the Necrons would have to overrun the 40k galaxy and so in, all more or less simultaneously. If any life survives, chaos will claw its way back into the world.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 hour ago, RuneBrush said: ran out of followers or at least weakened themselves to the point where there were not enough of them left. Wont that be a win for Khorne? Because then it becomes a never ending cycle. Exactly what he (and slaanesh and Tzeentch want). not disagreeing with it. But on a larger scale they win in that scenario and this whole age of sigmar is part of that. tzeentch can revel in plots both successful and failed. Slaanesh in the excesses from civilisation and the sensation of the battlefield. And Khorne from an enemy that grows stronger. they all don’t care as long as things are in motion. The only way they lose is if Nagash wins or they are put in some kind of stasis like slaanesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Kramer said: Wont that be a win for Khorne? Because then it becomes a never ending cycle. Exactly what he (and slaanesh and Tzeentch want). not disagreeing with it. But on a larger scale they win in that scenario and this whole age of sigmar is part of that. tzeentch can revel in plots both successful and failed. Slaanesh in the excesses from civilisation and the sensation of the battlefield. And Khorne from an enemy that grows stronger. they all don’t care as long as things are in motion. The only way they lose is if Nagash wins or they are put in some kind of stasis like slaanesh. My thinking is that it probably wouldn't be never ending as there wouldn't be any way to replenish the slain from Khorne's armies. It'd be great for a while, but longer term everyone bar a few insanely powerful war tribes would be dead. There's a weird symbiosis between mortals and the classic chaos gods, they want to destroy or dominate them, but ultimately also know that without them they'd not be as powerful as they are. One thing that is interesting to add though is that in the background lore, we're seeing more nods towards a slightly more civilised side of Khorne. Within Neferata Dominion of Bones, you have a largely self-sufficient Khorne city, which includes producing food. Some of that is because the daemon prince is from Hysh, but it's a nice indicator that the chaos gods may be starting to look at that long game for their mortal followers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 1 minute ago, RuneBrush said: ne thing that is interesting to add though is that in the background lore, we're seeing more nods towards a slightly more civilised side of Khorne. Within Neferata Dominion of Bones, you have a largely self-sufficient Khorne city, which includes producing food. Some of that is because the daemon prince is from Hysh, but it's a nice indicator that the chaos gods may be starting to look at that long game for their mortal followers Oh that’s cool. I’ll give it a read 👍 1 minute ago, RuneBrush said: My thinking is that it probably wouldn't be never ending as there wouldn't be any way to replenish the slain from Khorne's armies. It'd be great for a while, but longer term everyone bar a few insanely powerful war tribes would be dead. There's a weird symbiosis between mortals and the classic chaos gods, they want to destroy or dominate them, but ultimately also know that without them they'd not be as powerful as they are. My thinking is, that when that happens those insanely big war tribes do always splinter off, infight, to disorganised to truly scour a realm. So while those few warlords destroy themselves either inside out or between the war lords, in their shadow a dozen smaller tribes will rise and fall. And the cycle continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthMusketeer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Even Nagash's victory would not end Chaos, because there is still one sentient being left... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EccentricCircle Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said: Even Nagash's victory would not end Chaos, because there is still one sentient being left... Interesting question. What effect do the ascended mortal type gods have on the Realm of Chaos. Does their ascension generate a psychic maelstrom in the warp like a regular god, or do they work the other way out, by pulling the essence of a wind of magic out of the warp, and binding it to a mortal (or undead) form, do they insulate the warp from their godlyness? I'd guess the later, but I've never read End Times, so I'm not 100% up on precisely how ascension works, even if we got real answers at the time. As a side note, I read the book with the Khornate kingdom, which is called "Angeria" and my first thought was, "that's terrible world building, can't they come up with better names for things?" Then a bit further through the book I started thinking... "then again, its a kingdom where all the sensible people were murdered hundreds of years ago, and we've gotten to the point where Khornate Berserkers are the ones having to name things. Maybe a ridiculously stupid name actually fits the circumstances and is good world building!" Edited November 2, 2020 by EccentricCircle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorthor21 Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 If they make Morathi ascend to godhood in the next narrative book then we will see what that might entail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 Can I just say with the amount of skulls GW sprinkles on their models pretty much everybody is Khorne 😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 5 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said: Even Nagash's victory would not end Chaos, because there is still one sentient being left... True. Is Nagash corruptible? the online thing is if he wins everything is in stasis. In a standstill. Which is the exact opposite of chaos. Nothing more to manipulate, to encourage or to worship them. Can ghost be corrupted by chaos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorthor21 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 If I recall correctly nagash once wanted to kill all life so he could set himself up as the only god in the realm of chaos. That is if I remember the liber necris correctly. im sure a ghost could be corrupted by chaos just as much as anything else could though shyish could function as a way to keep the souls of the mortal realms out of the realm of chaos. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthMusketeer Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) In Malign Portents there was a snippet where Slaanesh was pondering how Nagash had his own forms of excess, which Slaanesh could taste as such. Though he also thought Nagash's vision for the realm was the most horrific thing imaginable: dull. (Edit) For reference, Khorne was like "yay skulls but no blood >:[" Tzeentch was like "huh wot I'm schizophrenic" Nurgle was like "GOD dammit Nagash" and the Great Horned Rat Was like "hehehe gunna shove this wrench rite up Nagash's rear AGAIN!" Edited November 3, 2020 by NinthMusketeer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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