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LoN in the current meta


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On 10/31/2020 at 6:37 AM, Bradifer said:

Spirit Hosts seem great with the changes to bringing back units.

What exactly are you referring to here? Anyway, I like the idea of using spirit hosts. They are kind of the opposite of what LoN usually gets in terms of dealing damage, since they do very high damage to high saves and low damage to low ones. I think running a unit of 6 could be worth it. Being able to do about 6 mortal wounds and maybe a few regular wounds as a bonus every round is pretty nice and is certainly unique among the summonable units.

The only thing I don't love about them is how hard they are to heal. Since they have three wounds they will often waste Invocation or Gravesite healing and it's hard to bring back models to a partially destroyed unit.  Makes me wonder if they would be good with Arkhan or Nagash, though, since their Invocations heal a flat 3 wounds. You could top a wounded Spirit Host up with Gravesite healing and then bring back a model guaranteed with their Invocations. Of course, those options either don't exist or are unattractive in Legion of Sacrament.

Contrary to what I wrote before, I think in your list a Mortis Engine might make sense. If you have three caster heroes that you already think are worthwhile on their own, and if you think the Mortis Engine brings enough to the table in it's own right, they have good synergy together. Other than that I find it hard to say what this list might want without playtesting. It seems like you have a lot of mobile chaff between the hexwraiths and dire wolves, and enough bodies to hold points with the Skeleton blob. Maybe a second big blob or another offensive threat? The list is relatively low damage output as it stands.

As for Shroud vs. Wristbands: I would personally use the low-wound back field heroes like the Necromancer. They are more likely to make full use of it (being shot at from outside of 8") than front line guys. I also feel that giving the Shroud to a small foot hero might make your opponent undercommit or miscalculate when they try to snipe them: A Necromancer has only got a 6+ save, so they look easy to pick off. But they can possibly benefit from "Look out, Sir!", cover, their wound pass-off and Deathless Minions in addition to the Shroud.

By contrast, the VLoZD is known to be pretty durable. I don't think most opponents will see him as an attractive target for turn 1 shooting. And he wants to be on the front lines most of the time, so I think the unconditional bonus from Wristbands is better on him. The other option would be the Azyrbane Standard for -1 to wound and to make order wizards reroll casts. I guess it depends on whether you think you can reliably get the Vampire Lord into the enemy.

On 11/1/2020 at 1:06 PM, El Antiguo Guardián said:

Yesterday I made a video for Patreon talking about the Legion of Blood.

The artifact of the little vampire lord is not as important as the orb, but I would like to use the "Legion of Blood dispell scroll" due to the current meta game.

I love Legion of Grief and I love this Legion of Blood list, and if we have an ETC on 2021 and we didn´t have a new vampiric book I would probably test this list. You have lots of bodies for objetives (80 ghost), you can reborn units, you have bodyguard on a dragon, the orb that is an amazing artifact, and the Blood Knights are ultra-cheap and they have lots of sinergies.

If I need to play LON on a tournament, that would be my list.

I like that this list has a good mix of bodies and mobility. I see you took Aritocracy of Blood on the VLoZD.  I don't think that's a bad choice, but I feel that since you will probably want to project power in multiple places, your Blood Knights might not benefit from it very often. Do you think it could be worth considering  Sanguine Blur or Walking Death?

I'm with you on the item choices, though. I think you will find good targets for the Orb in most games and the auto-dispell amulet might not do anything for you in some games, but in the ones that it does it could be game winning.

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Here's a LoS list I was toying with. Any thoughts?

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament

Leaders
Arkhan the Black Mortarch of Sacrament (360)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Vile Transference
Necromancer (130)
- Artefact: Shroud of Darkness
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (130)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
Spirit Torment (120)

Battleline
30 x Chainrasp Horde (240)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)

Units
9 x Spirit Hosts (360)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
 

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What about something like this for Nagash? Does this just get wrecked by shooting meta?

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash

Leaders
Nagash Supreme Lord of the Undead (880)
- General
- Lores of the Dead Spell 1: Overwhelming Dread
- Lores of the Dead Spell 2: Vile Transference
- Lores of the Dead Spell 3: Amethystine Pinions
Necromancer (130)
- Artefact: Grave-sand Timeglass
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour

Battleline
30 x Chainrasp Horde (240)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)

Units
30 x Grimghast Reapers (420)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
 

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34 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

Does this just get wrecked by shooting meta?

Probably, the palisades sound good, but are easily dispelled. And a lot of battleplans need heroes to grab objectives.

On the other hand, just go for it... always a nice touch to give the old man some table time.

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21 hours ago, LordPrometheus said:

Here's a LoS list I was toying with. Any thoughts?

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament

[...]

The Spirit Torment is an interesting option I had not considered.

What role do you see for the Spirit Torment? Is he just there to give the Reapers or Spirit Hosts reroll ones to hit? Am I interpreting this list right, that your main means of dealing damage will be to buff the Reapers and attack with them?

I'm still not sure I like Arkhan in Legion of Sacrament. I think he's way better if he does not have to be the general.

21 hours ago, LordPrometheus said:

What about something like this for Nagash? Does this just get wrecked by shooting meta?

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash

[...]
 

This is not really directly in response to your list, but I have recently been asking myself if it's right to keep bringing Necromancers in my lists.  One of their main payoffs is Vanhel's, which can be tricky to cast if your opponent expects it and saves their unbinds. Vampire Lords are only 10 points more, but they have a better Invocation, are way more mobile and survivable and get a command ability on top of that.

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1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The Spirit Torment is an interesting option I had not considered.

What role do you see for the Spirit Torment? Is he just there to give the Reapers or Spirit Hosts reroll ones to hit? Am I interpreting this list right, that your main means of dealing damage will be to buff the Reapers and attack with them?

 

Yes, he's there for the small buff and as another hero for those Deathless saves, and his warscroll ability can bring back even more Reapers. He would have been a third Necromancer, but not enough points. :)

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On 11/9/2020 at 11:12 AM, LordPrometheus said:

What about something like this for Nagash? Does this just get wrecked by shooting meta?

snip

Battleline
30 x Chainrasp Horde (240)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)
10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)

snip

I don’t know your overall strategy or local meta but as a Chainwrasp fan here’s my two coins for Charon.   In blocks of ten they are decent speed bumps or back-objective sitters.  In units of twenty they are far more durable than one would think with only a 5+ invuln.  A unit of thirty will certainly gum up a fight or hold a narrow pass.


Personally I’m a big fan of the twenty bedsheet units.  At the font they take hits pretty well screening important units.  Unwary opponents can be pressured depending what they see behind them.  I’ve locked up big-expensive-meanies for turns while the real battle is elsewhere.  In the rear they can ice-out the options for deepstrike or board-edge flankers.  If back-objective sitting and something gets there they can hold their own.  Most dice spamming enemies can’t also redeploy and those the one’s who best counter chainsrasps point-for-point.

Although I can definitely see a unit of thirty pinning something or running interference for your Ghrimghasts.


As far as the shooting meta goes KO (and some Lumineth armies) will like this fight.  Focus fire will drop the necromancer with expected statistical rolls and Nagash may or may not drop several levels (or just drop) in one round of shooting.  The best case scenario would be if bedsheet units acted as a distraction-carnafix.  If I was deploying that army I’d try to screen out Nagash and the Necromaner 20”+ from the enemy for some extreme armchair quarterbacking.  It would be rough against Lumineth since some of the spells you really want to negate are the unit casting for 5+ to-hit moral wound spam.

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Here's the list I am currently working with. Not very original, credit should go to @ianob, who to my knowledge pioneered this list.

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament

LEADERS

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)

  • General
  • Command Trait: Mastery of Death
  • Vampiric Sword & Shield & Chalice
  • Artefact: Wristbands of Black Gold
  • Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference

Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade (120)

  • Steed
  • Artefact: Azyrbane Standard

Necromancer (130)

  • Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

UNITS

40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)

  • Ancient Spears

10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)

  •  Ancient Blades

10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)

  • Ancient Blades

30 x Grave Guard (360)

  •  Great Wight Blades

15 x Black Knights (360)

BATTALIONS

Deathmarch (150)

TOTAL: 2000/2000 WOUNDS: 144

Three drops minimum.

---

Explanation:

Gotta go fast! This is a pretty standard Deathmarch list. The general gameplan is to charge your opponent turn 1 with your Black Knights and tarpit (or even kill) a good portion of their army, while you move your skeletons onto enough points to hopefully win the game.

The Deathmarch battalion gives you a 4" move in the hero phase for units wholly within 12" of the Wight King (and some incidental healing). The command trait Mastery of Death from LoS gives you a further 3" move in the hero phase within 6" of your general. Putting it on a VLoZD gives you a pretty wide area for this effect. The combination of both abilites gives you unexpected mobility on your Deathrattle units: 11" for Warriors and Grave Guard, 19" on Black Knights. Combined with the guaranteed 6" charge that's enough to alpha strike with your Black Knights on all battleplans unless the opponent backboards ( in which case you just give them turn 1).

VLoZD general gives you good range on Mastery of Death, as already mentioned, and provides you with a durable General for resurrection purposes. Wristbands make him more likely to survive shooting alpha strikes.

The Wight King will usually go with the Black Knights to support them. You should expect him to die early. Azybane Standard increases the Black Knights ability to tarpit.

The Necromancer is there as an extra hero and for a chance to cast Vanhel's Danse Macabre or one of the Deathmages lore spells.

I go with one big block of skeletons and two small. I feel that a big block of skeletons is enought of a threat to demand some attention by your opponent and if they sit on a point it will take some effort to take away from you.  Min-size skeletons are just chaff.

The Grave Guard are a serious offensive threat, especially when buffed. They do very good damage in melee and are definitely worth it for their price at 30. Another big threat.

The Black Knights are the star players of this list. They look pretty awful on paper, but they are good on the charge and you can potentially buff them with an extra attack, reroll failed hits and fight twice on the first turn for their big, guaranteed charge.  Bringing 15 might look like a waste since they are hard to all fit into combat, but if you charge several units at once that's not a problem. Also, since part of their job is to tarpit, the extra bodies are good even if they don't get to fight. They lack rend, but in my experience can overwhelm anything not on a 2+ save by sheer number of wounds if buffed up completely.

Options:

VLoZD:

You could give the VLoZD the Shroud of Darkness instead of the Wristbands, but since you ideally want to move him up into the opponent's face turn 1 and the Shroud loses effectiveness when you are close to the enemy, I think the Wristbands are better. Vile Transference is there to keep you topped up, and I think it's better than Pinions, because you already move 17" with Mastery of Death.

Wight King and Necromancer:

You could give the Shroud to one of them, but they are honestly not important enough overall. The Azyrbane Standard actively helps your gameplan instead of passively hindering the opponent, so I prefer it.

The Necromancer has Overwhelming Dread because it's the easiest to cast. Pick whichever spell you like. You'll mostly cast Vanhel's anyway.

Skeletons:

Everyone has opinions about swords vs. spears. I just went with the conventional wisdom. Honestly, it hardly matters.

Grave Guard:

Great Blades do significantly better damage and the +1 save from Crypt Shields is too unreliable. There's just too much rend out there to make it worthwhile.

Overall list composition:

You could run three min size units of skeletons. That allows you to take 5 more Black Knights and a command point, which is honestly arguably better.

You could also try to fit some other units in there, but any non-deathmarch unit you add will take you to 4 drops, which is not a trade off that I think is worth it.

---

This list is kind of unexciting because I feel it's "solved". There is very little variation since Deathmarch is so restrictive and you really want to keep your drops low. You can't add a Mortarch since you need the command trait for everything to work.

Edited by Neil Arthur Hotep
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2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Here's the list I am currently working with. Not very original, credit should go to @ianob, who to my knowledge pioneered this list.

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament

LEADERS

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)

  • General
  • Command Trait: Mastery of Death
  • Vampiric Sword & Shield & Chalice
  • Artefact: Wristbands of Black Gold
  • Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference

Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade (120)

  • Steed
  • Artefact: Azyrbane Standard

Necromancer (130)

  • Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread

UNITS

40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)

  • Ancient Spears

10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)

  •  Ancient Blades

10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)

  • Ancient Blades

30 x Grave Guard (360)

  •  Great Wight Blades

15 x Black Knights (360)

BATTALIONS

Deathmarch (150)

TOTAL: 2000/2000 WOUNDS: 144

Three drops minimum.

---

Explanation:

Gotta go fast! This is a pretty standard Deathmarch list. The general gameplan is to charge your opponent turn 1 with your Black Knights and tarpit (or even kill) a good portion of their army, while you move your skeletons onto enough points to hopefully win the game.

The Deathmarch battalion gives you a 4" move in the hero phase for units wholly within 12" of the Wight King (and some incidental healing). The command trait Mastery of Death from LoS gives you a further 3" move in the hero phase within 6" of your general. Putting it on a VLoZD gives you a pretty wide area for this effect. The combination of both abilites gives you unexpected mobility on your Deathrattle units: 11" for Warriors and Grave Guard, 19" on Black Knights. Combined with the guaranteed 6" charge that's enough to alpha strike with your Black Knights on all battleplans unless the opponent backboards ( in which case you just give them turn 1).

VLoZD general gives you good range on Mastery of Death, as already mentioned, and provides you with a durable General for resurrection purposes. Wristbands make him more likely to survive shooting alpha strikes.

The Wight King will usually go with the Black Knights to support them. You should expect him to die early. Azybane Standard increases the Black Knights ability to tarpit.

The Necromancer is there as an extra hero and for a chance to cast Vanhel's Danse Macabre or one of the Deathmages lore spells.

I go with one big block of skeletons and two small. I feel that a big block of skeletons is enought of a threat to demand some attention by your opponent and if they sit on a point it will take some effort to take away from you.  Min-size skeletons are just chaff.

The Grave Guard are a serious offensive threat, especially when buffed. They do very good damage in melee and are definitely worth it for their price at 30. Another big threat.

The Black Knights are the star players of this list. They look pretty awful on paper, but they are good on the charge and you can potentially buff them with an extra attack, reroll failed hits and fight twice on the first turn for their big, guaranteed charge.  Bringing 15 might look like a waste since they are hard to all fit into combat, but if you charge several units at once that's not a problem. Also, since part of their job is to tarpit, the extra bodies are good even if they don't get to fight. They lack rend, but in my experience can overwhelm anything not on a 2+ save by sheer number of wounds if buffed up completely.

Options:

VLoZD:

You could give the VLoZD the Shroud of Darkness instead of the Wristbands, but since you ideally want to move him up into the opponent's face turn 1 and the Shroud loses effectiveness when you are close to the enemy, I think the Wristbands are better. Vile Transference is there to keep you topped up, and I think it's better than Pinions, because you already move 17" with Mastery of Death.

Wight King and Necromancer:

You could give the Shroud to one of them, but they are honestly not important enough overall. The Azyrbane Standard actively helps your gameplan instead of passively hindering the opponent, so I prefer it.

The Necromancer has Overwhelming Dread because it's the easiest to cast. Pick whichever spell you like. You'll mostly cast Vanhel's anyway.

Skeletons:

Everyone has opinions about swords vs. spears. I just went with the conventional wisdom. Honestly, it hardly matters.

Grave Guard:

Great Blades do significantly better damage and the +1 save from Crypt Shields is too unreliable. There's just too much rend out there to make it worthwhile.

Overall list composition:

You could run three min size units of skeletons. That allows you to take 5 more Black Knights and a command point, which is honestly arguably better.

You could also try to fit some other units in there, but any non-deathmarch unit you add will take you to 4 drops, which is not a trade off that I think is worth it.

---

This list is kind of unexciting because I feel it's "solved". There is very little variation since Deathmarch is so restrictive and you really want to keep your drops low. You can't add a Mortarch since you need the command trait for everything to work.

I approve of this list! (also with how many armies are vulnerable to being charged T1 in the current meta, I also think it isn't a bad meta call, it isnt what it once was but will catch a lot of people off guard. Imagine 60 skinks or 80 Lumineth Archers having to deal with all those Black Knights).

Makes me miss this army even more, it was crushed in a small-child-knocking-over-a-cabinet incident :(

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20 hours ago, ianob said:

it was crushed in a small-child-knocking-over-a-cabinet incident

Now it’s a 2k puzzle for the lock down 🙈

Deepest condolence 

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21 hours ago, ianob said:

Makes me miss this army even more, it was crushed in a small-child-knocking-over-a-cabinet incident :(

That's a meta shift nobody could have predicted. RIP in peace, skeletons.

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