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Rodiger

Warhammer Community, your helpful friend * 

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7 minutes ago, Overread said:

I never said give up, I said if you can't make or have hope to effect change then consider other approaches or means. If you want GW to lower the exchange rate conversion so that Australia has a fairer price point compared to other markets complaining about being overpriced over and over in a community won't change that. It will have zero effect. Finding a means to consolidate your viewpoint; to gather significant numbers of gamers together in a united positive front that isn't just crying for cheaper prices; perhaps even finding out some of the reasons and perhaps seeing that there might be political elements which result in higher prices and thus how gamers could unit with other groups to put pressure on government to make legislative changes etc...

That's, sadly not realistic at all. The community is too small, too scattered and too badly connected to pull anything off. All the GW defenders make things even harder. The Game itself isn't big enough for politicians to be interested in.

 

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2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

That's, sadly not realistic at all. The community is too small, too scattered and too badly connected to pull anything off. All the GW defenders make things even harder. The Game itself isn't big enough for politicians to be interested in.

Yes that's why I said networking with other groups ;) 

That and it was only an "off the top of my head" example. The key part is that its an idea that works toward trying to produce an actual change rather than just moaning. As I said before, if you cannot change things, then you have to either move on or live with those things and work at improving the fun and positive engagement aspects.

If you cannot make change you must learn to accept/tolerate/mitigate what is - otherwise you set yourself up for continual misery. 

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44 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

So even if a corporation were to try to have a community engagement thing completely separate from their normal marketing efforts, it would still exist only in so far as it makes sense to them as a marketing tool. It would exist to promote interest in their product or enhance that product in some way (for tabletop games, a bigger or more connected community is desireable in itself since it makes it easier to find people to play with).

It is tricky, indeed. But I wouldn't make such absolute statements.

Suppose that GW organizes monthly painting competitions. They simply provide a website to display it and the infraestructure, while the votes are from costumers / viewers.

Is this marketing? Yes. Is it "dishonest" / "misleading"? Well, depends on how that would be organized. Suppose that in an underhanded way they promote new sculpts "too much" (by placing it in the announcements of the competition, by posting the new model submission at the top of the page, or similar tactics). Then, that is in my eyes "dishonest". If they don't fo such things, then I understand they are rising awareness for their product but I don't see it as a "dishonest" endeveour.

44 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The most honest mode of interaction with a customer would be not to be deceptive about your intention of selling them things. [...] The marketing effort is very thinly, if at all, veiled.

That is not the vibe I get from that website. They opted for the "infomercial" style, which is not the same as a direct ad.

44 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

 Authentic community can only really come from community members, not from an authority like GW.

They could provide support for community run inicitatives (painting competitions, tournaments). The more "conditions" attached to that support, the more it would look "greedy".

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Only just managed to read through this thread, but thought it was worth putting my five-penneth in.

Warhammer Community and GW's marketing department is one in the same.  The WarCom website/blog is their platform to promote and advertise products, along with newsletters, Twitch, YouTube and all of the social media platforms.  One of the main parts of the team is certainly to build up hype for new releases.  I do agree that some of the articles on the website are a bit questionable - the hobby at home one I did find a little weird as don't most of us already do that?  That said, I'll bet that some people didn't know GW made those paint rack holders until they read that article.

I'm not sure it's necessarily fair to claim that the whole of the WarCom website is a massive marketing ploy.  The cartoons and tools like Warscroll Builder don't have any form of sales spin to them (which they could quite easily do).

I think the community aspect of WarCom is because they're actually trying to get people together.  I see articles shared on Twitter a lot and people talking to each other that wouldn't have done so without that article.  To a certain extent we're talking because of one article that was perhaps a bit questionable.

One thing that has happened is that White Dwarf is no longer GW's primary marketing tool as it was at one point.  WD will always have articles covering the latest releases but doesn't have those (immediately out of date) "released this month" adverts.

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There is a that quote about free stuff that I always think about when people talk about internet websites and marketing:

"If you're not paying for the product you are the product"

That quote is from the 1970s and is about TV advertising and it has only gotten more applicable with the rise of the internet.

The Warhammer Community site is free but has to pay its money back somehow and I think it does it by being GW mouthpiece for news announcements and also be one of the sources for the companies internet advertising.

A general criticism I have with the Community site is that there is no sort feature for articles because the article in the OP would be useful if GW had a filter for articles that helped people get started in the hobby.

 

 

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The articles are 100% about promoting their products, but I think that's somewhat to be expected. Are some more blatant in trying to sell products? Of course, but there's also articles showing conversions and other more hobby focused topics.  

I think part of the trouble stems from the fact it can be difficult to determine when big companies are being sincere. Its a balancing act in that a company might be trying to foster goodwill to promote their business, but at the same time would you rather support a business that doesn't foster goodwill? 

And I don't mean to sound dismissive, but the easiest option is to simply not read Warhammer Community articles. If the articles are annoying or rub you the wrong way, don't seek them out. You can find vibrant communities on facebook, youtube, reddit, instagram, or this site which are more representative of the "warhammer community".     

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First of all:

21 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

That is not the vibe I get from that website. They opted for the "infomercial" style, which is not the same as a direct ad.

This is entirely fair.

 

21 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

It is tricky, indeed. But I wouldn't make such absolute statements.

Suppose that GW organizes monthly painting competitions. They simply provide a website to display it and the infraestructure, while the votes are from costumers / viewers.

Is this marketing? Yes. Is it "dishonest" / "misleading"? Well, depends on how that would be organized. Suppose that in an underhanded way they promote new sculpts "too much" (by placing it in the announcements of the competition, by posting the new model submission at the top of the page, or similar tactics). Then, that is in my eyes "dishonest". If they don't fo such things, then I understand they are rising awareness for their product but I don't see it as a "dishonest" endeveour.

Don't misundestand me: I don't want to claim that companies cannot interact with their customers in a way that is honest or good or ethical. Things like sponsoring painting competitions,  donating to the prize pools of tournaments or even running their own tournaments are beneficial to both the company and their customers. There is also no deception going on here. Customers can understand that these things are a means to making the company's product more attractive.

What I think a company cannot do is organize their community in a genuine way.  This is because the essential, defining purpose of a company (especially a publicly traded one like GW) is to maximize profits. A decision made by a company necessarily aims at this end, and whether their decisions are good or bad in their role as a company is judged by how well promote it. This involved interacting with their community by placing them in the role of (primarily) customers. In the case of GW, it also means interacting with their games as (primarily) products.

And that makes a big difference from how you or I, as people, can interact with the community as other people, and with GWs games as a hobby. We can do community organization or participate in the community just for the sake of the hobby and the people who share it with us. The game can have value for us for it's own sake and promoting the enjoyment of it for other people does can be it's own end in a way that it cannot be for the company that sells the game.

This is why an article about the things you might want for your hobby space written by GW marketing will look different than one written by a community member. A community member is in the position to just recommend whatever hobby tools they think are the best. A person acting as a representative of a corporation will have to recommend tools from the perspective of 'But does this actually serve the purpose of promoting this corporations product best?'.

That's not to say that people working at a company can't also genuinely care about their product or community. It's just that when they interact with the product or community in their role as a company employee, they additionally share the aims of the corporation and have to balance that with whatever other aims and values they might have. Even though I have no doubt that Duncan really loves painting miniatures and teaching people how to do it, you can tell that when he was still working for GW the way that he did this was substantially different from now, when he is no longer affiliated with them.

 

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21 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Don't misundestand me: I don't want to claim that companies cannot interact with their customers in a way that is honest or good or ethical. Things like sponsoring painting competitions,  donating to the prize pools of tournaments or even running their own tournaments are beneficial to both the company and their customers. There is also no deception going on here. Customers can understand that these things are a means to making the company's product more attractive.

Yep! I would like to see a lot more of that, specially at a "regional" or "local" level.

21 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

What I think a company cannot do is organize their community in a genuine way. 

 

Yep. They can help, but it is hard for them to be the main drivers without it quickly ending up like warcom.

Now, I think that calling an "infomercial" focused website warhammer "community" is a bit tacky.

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On 10/13/2020 at 12:07 PM, amysrevenge said:

Looks like it's time to reinstall my imaginary browser plug-in that automatically replaces "greedy" with "capitalist".

I mean... capitalists tend to be greedy. It's the point. Make all the money by hook or crook, restrained only by law and even then you can spend some of your money to weaken those restraints or ignore them (which is when capitalism becomes bad for society). 

 

 

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On 10/13/2020 at 4:33 PM, Rodiger said:

Recently I've been getting quite tired of Warhammer Community**. When the U.K went into lockdown and GW had to roll back production etc. it broke up a never ending cycle of product hype and marketing that had been going for years. It made me step back and realise that all the articles about the new release are just marketing, they aren't helpful free things, they are just there to sell the new release, all the different previews whether they are rules, fluff, painting all have the same core message, buy, buy, buy. It was so nice to have a break from it all. Even if you don't go on Warhammer Community a lot of other websites just copy and paste the articles.***

This article is a good example. 
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/12/hobby-at-home-getting-started/

It starts off talking about how people are experiencing difficult times and then goes into 'instructional advice'**** how to set up a hobby area and find space to play in. But really all it is doing is trying to sell some of the worst priced items GW make.***** It creates a problem then solves it with a link to buy one of their products. I did a quick count there are 18 links in there to buy things, the cost of the hobby items alone is £150. 
"Experiencing hard times? More free time because you lost your job due to the global pandemic? Well your good friend Warhammer Community's got you covered, with expensive hobby items you don't need."******

The writing style of Warhammer Community is also especially inane.******* The constant use of asterisks is completely unnecessary and quite annoying. It was a joke that was mildly amusing on one article.******** Also the constant use of 'we've got you covered' which just means spend more. 
I know White Dwarf is designed to sell products, but it does occasionally have some interesting content in it. It isn't all just marketing.

Sorry, I know the site rules, topics shouldn't just be complaining, and I have been doing a bit of that recently, maybe I should take a break from posting for a bit. That article rubbed me up the wrong way, and I just think GW are taking the Mick********* out of their customers at the moment with their record profits, record price rises, record new prices. Any shine has rubbed off 'New GW'  and Warhammer Community has been a big part of that. I think they are being exposed for the greedy company they are and not the matey one they try to trick you into thinking they are. I'm starting to miss the 'Old GW' where they didn't communicate with the community at all.

Am I wrong? Have I got the wrong end of the stick? Does Warhammer Community actually deserve the word community in its name?

* replace 'your helpful friend' with 'cynical marketing under the guise of being your friend.'
** Community maybe the wrong word for advertising.
*** free hype! Actually just a bad joke that you had to scroll down to read.
**** it's not instructional or advice
***** no it's not the Mega Gargant, that's already being sold in the first sentence.
****** you can find better alternative for free lying around your house.
******* god these are annoying aren't they.
******** joke is maybe too strong a word, I don't think a physical smile crossed my face.
********* **** 
 

I agree with you entirely in that morally speaking I think the efforts to speak into serious subject matters in the way the Community Space has done is at best crass and at worst deeply disrespectful. 

But in respect to anyones expectations as to what *literally any GW space* will be doing besides pushing product, ever, well. It only exists for that purpose. As with all social media or community platforms, they exist to make money. That's it. They are not your friend, nor are they your enemy, but the only relationship they are interested in fostering with you is one that results in you buying as much stuff from them as you can, regardless of how that leaves you feeling. They really dont care about you or your feelings besides being in a position to buy stuff. That's where your relationship with them starts and ends.

That goes for the team on camera too, by the way, Peachy and co. They dont care about you.  How can they, they dont even know you. That dosent mean they dont like you or want you to be happy etc but I suspect that applies to most people who also haven't met you, that's just a default of not being a psychopath. But they dont care about you. They're doing a job for money which has the sole aim of getting money from you.

What I personally am more upset by is the amount of times on Twitter or other hobby Community spaces which are not run by GW essentially offering more or the less the same empty mentality. People responding to people's heartfelt expressions that they are finding it hard to invest in the hobby in the same way given the current circumstances being met with vapid nonsense about buying more models or try and paint different models etc. Its somehow inconceivable that there isn't an answer to any of life's problems which can't be provided by painting, gaming or buying more. Ugh.

The lack of context and disconnect from real life in those instances is everything that the stereotypes say is wrong about the hobby. 

In sum though- GW is not your friend and neither is the hobby. Don't look to either for love and value. The people in the community who are good people will be good to you without it being contingent on whether you like orcs etc or not. Invest in people and in communities which invest in people, in whatever form they come. 

Edited by Nos
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20 hours ago, Nos said:

In sum though- GW is not your friend and neither is the hobby. Don't look to either for love and value. 

I think you hit a very important point there. Warhammer fans are emotionally invested in it, and that can make obvious marketing ploys feel like a friend or relative is using you. 
 

More and more I’ve come to accept the idea that I don’t love games workshop - I love John Blanche and Karl Kopinski, Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson, Jes Goodwin and so on. I love skulls and big guys in rusty armor, tiny toy soldiers and miniature landscapes.

While I read some warhammer community articles, I don’t really resent the tone. They are spending a lot of money to deliver free content to people interested in their products. I actually have more of a problem when the same kind of ethos finds its way in rule books and other things I pay for.

Yeah the article OP quoted kind of sucks, and it was probably written in a few hours by someone with a tight deadline and 100 unread emails. I wish they had more interesting articles. But when I want better content I just go check out Garden of Hecate, Tabletop minions, 28 mag and a thousand other stuff from passionate people who don’t feel the need to suggest I buy the GW Official Piece of Paper to wipe my brush (19.99, preorders next saturday).

So while I agree about the overall quality of the article, I don’t feel like it’s very dishonest or underhanded. It’s just a sales pitch, from a sales website.

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I find it laughable that people view gamesworkshop as any greedier than any other business needs to be in a capitalist society.

And as to argument that Warhammer community isn't a great community resource, I dare you to read articles like this and not be inspired to be creative.

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Mostly because they view it from a bubble in which you always get "my company is the worst" when compared to others it's actually benign.

Like with chinese stuff GW only does some terrain and has a store in Hong Kong. That's very little compared to others who have all or the majority of their stuff there.

Like it was a big shock to a lot of people when companies like Nintendo & Microsoft got outed for that stuff a few months back.

 

1 hour ago, Athrawes said:

I dare you to read articles like this and not be inspired to be creative.

Definitely,  plus the article OP found "cringey" is sitting at over 90 likes which is a high score on that page along with it's Twitter post getting very positive reception. with people showing off their own hobby caves.

"Lord Stuert

Replying to
My little hobby cave! Thanks everyone at @GW_officialuk  and @WarComTeam that has been here and kept us company through these difficult times!"
EkJdyg-XcAE7N4n?format=jpg&name=small
 
So i'd say they keep showing that community spirit. :)

 

Edited by Baron Klatz

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I think it’s a mixed bag really.
75% of posts are “buy this new thing”.

But for the rest there are some interesting features. The periodic painting tutorials with Mengel are very useful. I also enjoy occasional army showcases. There are the regular comics (my favourite is Neverchosen, some of the others I just don’t find that funny (Roll models, battle brothers I’m looking at you)). There have also been the character battle royale type articles, which were quite a fun read. I’m quite interested in the upcoming meta watch series as well.

Overall, I’d rather have WarCom there than not. Yes, it will show me what GW is selling, but I’ve rarely gone and bought something solely because of it being featured on WarCom. It may not be the true “community“ that people seem to want from it but that’s why we have forums.

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At freaking last! 

You Butter Your Toast With a Mouldline Remover

Now I know what to do with mine! :)

 

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Count me among those who are confused as to why one would expect anything else--I just read the articles on the parts of the hobby that interest me and keep reading because I find them enjoyable enough to do so. The barrage of subtle and not-so-subtle 'buy this!' Is something I get hit with all day every day, that's just how the first world runs right now. It is kind of like when there is some background noise in a room; your brain just tunes is out after a while and you don't notice unless it gets particularly obnoxious. 

At least that's my experience. 

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