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8 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

You classify it as being in a) because you have made the decision that the price for a Megagargant is not fair and therefore anybody who disagrees with your decision does not know the value of money.  But money is simply a means of purchasing things and therefore the value of money per se is subjective.  Your value of money is yours, nobody elses.  If I have a different outlook on the monetary value of a Megagargant, it simply means that I see the value of money differently from you - it does not mean I do not understand the value of money.

You say you could spend  $320 on a Megagargant or make that $320 go much further.  I say I want a Megagargant can I afford to buy one.  It's a matter of perspective.

The only thing which makes money subjective is different uses of it, so basically either you have more since you aren't buying these big monsters, or you simply make more than the rest of us. Some people place little value on it and live happy lives, but it is very hard to have a view of money that is very low, and still play Warhammer due to the cost. The only thing I have to say on the rich side of viewing money as an unimportant thing is that considering that view close to what most of us have to look at money as is very inaccurate. Now, 3rd party is great and all, but there is no way to defend the mega gargants price from a perspective of a consumer. Yes, it does make sense that they want more money, but we want them to spend our money better, not just increase the amount of shops everywhere.

I believe that last point is literally the exact same thing as well, both of you are saying can I afford it, if not what else can I do with it. For some other people (such as myself) I really badly want a mega gargant, but I literally cannot afford it. If it had been a 150 - 140, I might have been able to squeeze it in but now with this raised price they lost more money. I really do think this will affect their sales negatively, because it's not every King Brodd who buy 2 to 2 Jack Streichers who buy nothing, its every King Brodd who buys one - 2  to 3-5 Jack Streichers or Sttufes who dont buy it. And when it flops, GW will abandon it, and then it will be squatted.

Edited by Sttufe
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48 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

You classify it as being in a) because you have made the decision that the price for a Megagargant is not fair and therefore anybody who disagrees with your decision does not know the value of money.  But money is simply a means of purchasing things and therefore the value of money per se is subjective.  Your value of money is yours, nobody elses.  If I have a different outlook on the monetary value of a Megagargant, it simply means that I see the value of money differently from you - it does not mean I do not understand the value of money.

You say you could spend  $320 on a Megagargant or make that $320 go much further.  I say I want a Megagargant can I afford to buy one.  It's a matter of perspective.

Yes money is a means of purchasing things, but some things are more important than other things and one has to prioritise spending when one does not have infinite money.

I'd like to hear what your priced out point would be, by the way. How expensive would the mega gargant have to be before you firmly said no to buying it?

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I feel like Mega Gargant Prices are still absurd. 

One of them is about the same size as the glottkin, but for some reason they are double the price. There is also no need for them to be more expensive than Archaon or Teclis the old most expensive models. 

So many people in the discord I was a part of were really excited for the Mega Gargants, but backed out once they saw the price. I think had they been cheaper, maybe around the price of a Greater Daemon, Way more people would buy them. But people are getting scared away by the prices. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Envyus said:

I feel like Mega Gargant Prices are still absurd. 

One of them is about the same size as the glottkin, but for some reason they are double the price. There is also no need for them to be more expensive than Archaon or Teclis the old most expensive models. 

So many people in the discord I was a part of were really excited for the Mega Gargants, but backed out once they saw the price. I think had they been cheaper, maybe around the price of a Greater Daemon, Way more people would buy them. But people are getting scared away by the prices. 

 

 

Yeah, I could get a Bloodthirster for $170 or a Mega ripoff for $320. The disparity is absurd.

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2 minutes ago, 123lac said:

Yeah, I could get a Bloodthirster for $170 or a Mega ripoff for $320. The disparity is absurd.

170 vs 230 for a Canadian like me. 

 

But yeah I would for sure buy a Mega Gargant if they were 20% cheaper. 

Edited by Envyus

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6 minutes ago, Sttufe said:

The only thing which makes money subjective is different uses of it, so basically either you have more since you aren't buying these big monsters, or you simply make more than the rest of us. Some people place little value on it and live happy lives, but it is very hard to have a view of money that is very low, and still play Warhammer due to the cost. The only thing I have to say on the rich side of viewing money as an unimportant thing is that considering that view close to what most of us have to look at money as is very inaccurate. Now, 3rd party is great and all, but there is no way to defend the mega gargants price from a perspective of a consumer. Yes, it does make sense that they want more money, but we want them to spend our money better, not just increase the amount of shops everywhere.

I am a self-employed gardener with a net yearly income of £15,000 a year.  I did not say I place little value on money, I said my value of money is different.   For example, I tend not to spend £5 on a cup of coffee when out as I do not see that as good value, but if I have had to drive a long way and it is the middle of the night, then the  coffee becomes worth the value of the £5.  If there is any surplus money, once basic necessities and family are cared for, then any surplus is there to enrich one's life.  If I feel my life will be enriched by having a Megagargant and I have the money available, then the price is worth the value.  If the money isn't available, then the option to buy isn't there anyway.  I'm not buying it as an investment, I'm buying because I want one to build and paint and play with on the table and get enjoyment from.    There are plenty of things I would like that are too expensive, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the time required to make the money to afford them.

@123lacThe higher GW's prices go, the fewer models I will be able to purchase until there comes a point when I can no longer buy any of them.  When I decide to start a new army, I am already aware that this will probably require several hundred pounds to purchase and will therefore take a year or two to complete.     I can't really say what my priced out point for a Megagargant would be, though I'm sure there is one and it's probably not far away.  It's probably fairer to say that I would find it unaffordable anyway before that point was reached.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, 123lac said:

Yes money is a means of purchasing things, but some things are more important than other things and one has to prioritise spending when one does not have infinite money.

I'd like to hear what your priced out point would be, by the way. How expensive would the mega gargant have to be before you firmly said no to buying it?

And all personal entertainment goods aren't on any priority list of important things anyway. Whatever the costs. You do not need a Gargant. So to say that either you have to have "infinite money" or be a sucker if you personally think it's worth buying it, is way too simplistic. You have no idea what people here do besides the hobby - you can easily say "I know the value of money because I don't waste it on a Gargant" while dinning out every night for $300, or just get your over-priced coffee every day at a chain or whatever. Who knows. 

People have been knowing that the Gargants are coming out since half a year. If a Gargant is something you really want, you can save on other non-essential costs in most cases to get one. And if not, then likely you didn't really want to get one, or you can go with one of the alternatives posted in this thread. 

Your question about being priced out doesn't make much sense - because it's arbitrary even within the same hobby. I wouldn't have bought a Gargant for $1, because I'm not interested in them. So I'm on the responsible side in your book. But then, I almost 100% would have  bought Teclis even if the model was priced higher than a Gargant. So I'm a GW fanboy (or have unlimited resources) right? But, I haven't bought any AoS products before the Lumineth - so probably you have "wasted" much more money in the last several years on the hobby than myself. And it's not like during that period no-one thought the models are too expensive either. 

It sucks that prices are getting higher, and that some people can't buy a toy they want. And, not buying something you think is not worth it for you is a good way of showing that to GW. But telling people they are dumb or suckers because they don't agree with what you personally think is a fair price for a toy is nonsensical.

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13 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

And all personal entertainment goods aren't on any priority list of important things anyway. Whatever the costs. You do not need a Gargant. So to say that either you have to have "infinite money" or be a sucker if you personally think it's worth buying it, is way too simplistic. You have no idea what people here do besides the hobby - you can easily say "I know the value of money because I don't waste it on a Gargant" while dinning out every night for $300, or just get your over-priced coffee every day at a chain or whatever. Who knows. 

People have been knowing that the Gargants are coming out since half a year. If a Gargant is something you really want, you can save on other non-essential costs in most cases to get one. And if not, then likely you didn't really want to get one, or you can go with one of the alternatives posted in this thread. 

Your question about being priced out doesn't make much sense - because it's arbitrary even within the same hobby. I wouldn't have bought a Gargant for $1, because I'm not interested in them. So I'm on the responsible side in your book. But then, I almost 100% would have  bought Teclis even if the model was priced higher than a Gargant. So I'm a GW fanboy (or have unlimited resources) right? But, I haven't bought any AoS products before the Lumineth - so probably you have "wasted" much more money in the last several years on the hobby than myself. And it's not like during that period no-one thought the models are too expensive either. 

It sucks that prices are getting higher, and that some people can't buy a toy they want. And, not buying something you think is not worth it for you is a good way of showing that to GW. But telling people they are dumb or suckers because they don't agree with what you personally think is a fair price for a toy is nonsensical.

No, there must be a point where something is either fair value or overpriced. It might not be a specific point down to the exact dollar, but it's there nonetheless, because fundamentally 99.9% of us do not have infinite money.

Your argument that you wouldn't pick up a gargant for $1 is irrelevant. Obviously I am considering fair value from the perspective of a hobbyist who wants one.

What would your price ceiling have been for Teclis? 

 

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48 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I am a self-employed gardener with a net yearly income of £15,000 a year.  I did not say I place little value on money, I said my value of money is different.   For example, I tend not to spend £5 on a cup of coffee when out as I do not see that as good value, but if I have had to drive a long way and it is the middle of the night, then the  coffee becomes worth the value of the £5.  If there is any surplus money, once basic necessities and family are cared for, then any surplus is there to enrich one's life.  If I feel my life will be enriched by having a Megagargant and I have the money available, then the price is worth the value.  If the money isn't available, then the option to buy isn't there anyway.  I'm not buying it as an investment, I'm buying because I want one to build and paint and play with on the table and get enjoyment from.    There are plenty of things I would like that are too expensive, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the time required to make the money to afford them.

@123lacThe higher GW's prices go, the fewer models I will be able to purchase until there comes a point when I can no longer buy any of them.  When I decide to start a new army, I am already aware that this will probably require several hundred pounds to purchase and will therefore take a year or two to complete.     I can't really say what my priced out point for a Megagargant would be, though I'm sure there is one and it's probably not far away.  It's probably fairer to say that I would find it unaffordable anyway before that point was reached.

 

 

Well my friend, I would like to see GW charge less for the gargants so that you can buy one and enjoy it without having to save up for too long or go without too many of those coffees ;)

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12 minutes ago, 123lac said:

No, there must be a point where something is either fair value or overpriced. It might not be a specific point down to the exact dollar, but it's there nonetheless, because fundamentally 99.9% of us do not have infinite money.

Your argument that you wouldn't pick up a gargant for $1 is irrelevant. Obviously I am considering fair value from the perspective of a hobbyist who wants one.

What would your price ceiling have been for Teclis? 

 

I don't know. Depends on many other things. What do the other models costs in the line? What the total expense for the army I want to build? What do similar other models from other factions cost? How much else would I spend on the hobby or other entertainment costs, and so on. I wouldn't spend a $1,000 on it for example. Of course there is a line where most people would think it's just ridiculous to spend that on plastic toys, and wouldn't buy it. But that doesn't mean it's not priced "fair". There is a lot of things I don't want to buy which are in the exact same price range. It just means it doesn't have enough value for me, but that doesn't mean there is an objective line. It's pretty much arbitrary. It just so happened that they now are crossing your line - but already 5 years ago and 10 years ago some people thought the models are too expensive. 

It doesn't have anything much to do with objective fairness - because you do not need plastic toys, and especially not plastic toys from a certain company, and really not right now at release date. You can have a fine, healthy fulfilling live and even just a great GW AoS hobby experience without buying Gargants from GW. It's the same thing with all other similar goods: sports goods, traveling, cameras and so on. You have cheaper alternatives, and basically what you feel is fair above what their production costs are, varies from person to person.

You probably could make a relative objective statement about the fairness of the price, but then you'd have to go into much deeper into detail than what you are doing here. You just want to get the stuff cheaper - which is fine, and I think none of us disagrees with that. What it doesn't mean is that people who buy Gargants don't understand the value of money or a GW apologists. 

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3 hours ago, 123lac said:

Well my friend, I would like to see GW charge less for the gargants so that you can buy one and enjoy it without having to save up for too long or go without too many of those coffees ;)

Me too :) 

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4 hours ago, Sttufe said:

I believe that last point is literally the exact same thing as well, both of you are saying can I afford it, if not what else can I do with it. For some other people (such as myself) I really badly want a mega gargant, but I literally cannot afford it. If it had been a 150 - 140, I might have been able to squeeze it in but now with this raised price they lost more money. I really do think this will affect their sales negatively, because it's not every King Brodd who buy 2 to 2 Jack Streichers who buy nothing, its every King Brodd who buys one - 2  to 3-5 Jack Streichers or Sttufes who dont buy it. And when it flops, GW will abandon it, and then it will be squatted.

Eh for my experience it usually 5 king Brodd to one jack stretcher, mainly because it always been small vocal people on the intenet saying thing cost too much but in reality, the consumer base buy into the hype more readily then the small people are willing to say so. and for the most part their marketing has gain a lot of traction (more so then Lumineath did)

i don't think it will flop just because the market traction for this range has been very consistent when it comes to view and traffic, yes there always comments about the pricing but it just a small subset of the population.

 

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No philosophy behind it for me. I just don’t like feeling ripped off. 
Also don’t think that would change if I had unlimited money.
 

Edited by Beastmaster
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3 hours ago, 123lac said:

Well my friend, I would like to see GW charge less for the gargants so that you can buy one and enjoy it without having to save up for too long or go without too many of those coffees ;)

Don’t say that out loud!!! 
now GW will start selling overpriced coffee in the sizes duardin, ogor, aleguzzler and mega gargant at tournaments. 
And bottles of deepkin aqua. 

maybe spicy magmadroth burgers as dinner. 

woundnt go for the nurgle nuggets though. And the slaanesh themed ‘aspirine ’ being sold below the counter seems iffy to me too. 

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For me £70 is about the limit of what is a fair price for a single big model. I've gone over that a couple of times for forge world models, but only in unusual circumstances such as when it was the last thing I needed to complete a collection. I spent the most on the big Chaos Dwarf monsters, and have never regretted those. Were they worth the price in absolute terms? Probably not, but to me, to complete my army, and having just been paid for a big-ish job it was justified.

The biggest single model I've bought is the dread saurian. I had just gotten a new job, so could afford it for the first time ever, it was the last seraphon model to complete a collection of lizardmen going back to the 90s models, and which was my first fantasy army. That all added up to it being worth it, while in absolute terms it costs too much for what it is. Forge world was also discontinueing a lot of their fantasy models, so while I believe the Saurian ultimately survived the cull there was a sense that it might be now or never. Fear of missing out can be a big motivator.

The trouble is, I'm now terrified that I'll mess up building it, since I'm terrible at working with resin. Its thus still not finished several months later.

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I’d like to start off by saying that I agree that the mega gargant kit is pretty expensive and that if it was at a lower price point I’d be more likely to get one now. I think personally it fits into the category of things to possibly get after I’ve gotten everything else I’d want for an existing army and down the road might wish to toss this into the mix. If I know it might be a few years before an army gets a new release, adding one of these big boys starts to look more attractive.

I think in terms of deciding if a miniature is worth the price there’s both an objective and subjective element to the decision. On one hand you can objectively quantify the price verses the amount of plastic in the box or the number of points in game, and compare them to another miniature. Here you can say the mega gargant is a worse deal than a larger cheaper kit, or something more cost to point efficient.

On the other hand the notion of whether you’ve “wasted your money” is ultimately subjective. If I have the money and I’m happy with my purchase, then I haven’t wasted anything. While it might not be the best deal available, or I could have gotten a cheaper equivalent 3rd party giant, if I’m content with it than that’s fine. Frankly one could decide that the cheaper 3rd party giant is a waste of their money if they don’t actually want it and are just getting it for the savings. Just like buying designer name clothes or an expensive meal as opposed to a more cost effective option, if I’m happy with it, then for me its money well spent, just as the same purchase may very feel like a waste for someone else. But I might be biased as I personally own quite a bit of Forgeworld miniatures which have rather poor money to game effectiveness ratio, but because I like them I’m happy with it. Different strokes for different folks.

Also I doubt GW is going to get burned too much by their pricing on this release. I’m sure they recognize it’s a high cost and don’t expect it to sell as widely as some other releases, at least as a whole army.  Armies like Sons of Behemat and 40K knights are definably not the most popular armies used, but they will sell and the ability to take one with other armies is also a selling point. Obviously I have no idea what actually goes on at GW HQ but I imagine they assume that not all armies, whether because of theme or pricing will be as popular as others.

TLDR: Yeah they’re expensive and I probably won’t get one barring a gift or I run out of other things to get for existing armies. Also while there are more cost efficient options, if you want one and are happy with spending that much, then for you it was a good purchase. And if the price out strips its worth to you, then you shouldn’t get it and would be better spent on something else. And Finally I’d be surprised if the price of the mega gargants negatively impacts GW in a meaningful way. Sorry for the rambling thoughts.

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I think we might be losing perspective here. There are plenty of "controversial" purchases happening across industries and this megagargants are no different.

From expensive coffees, to luxury items. OMG how could you spend so much money on a diamond ring, which has poor resale value; that fancy luxury car, that gourmet meal, that high end resort, etc.

Sometimes, the cost of production (ridiculous item or not) is closer to the selling prices, in other cases the company manages to sneak in a huge margin. But oftentimes this is not information the buyer has.

The truth is, GW is charging that much for megagargants because they think they can make them have that value through their "fluff" (it is not a piece of plastic, it is a megagargant) and their rules. Is it truly different from a glotkin? From a plastic / sculpt perspective, likely not. But it is a megagargant, not a glotkin, and GW can print some words in a piece of paper and automatically make it have more value (it kicks objectives!). Or GW can invest a certain amount in marketing and increase its value. Or perhaps on some "lore"/"fluff" books (another form of marketing), and make people want to play with that new toy because they are so "cool".

This ideas of raising the value of a sculpt via "fluff" + "marketing" + "rules" is the entire foundation of the business. Just because they have priced it "too high" for some of us, it does not change the fact that we have been paying large amounts of money (above many alternatives) for plastic / resin / pewter because we bought into the GW "value" construct. I don't think we need to call others who will still buy for 200 "rich people" or "crazies who do not know the value of money". In the eyes of many, everyone in this forum is "crazy" for buying into GWs marketing "story".

PS - That's not to say that, in general, I believe we have to guard ourselves against some of GW's (and many other companies!) strategies to "increase value". I think it would be great in GW had plenty more competitors, if players were to create strong "fantasy wargaming" associations to run tournaments (instead of stores or GW vendors having the reigns), and we forced more 3rd party miniatures on the table. All those things would, imho, most likely lower prices, result in better balanced wargames, and ultimately decrease the ability of companies of manipulating prices to the point of what we are seeing (the mega gargant being a prime example). But all that said, the megagargant is just the continuation of a business model that also sells titans for thousands of dollars. And people go around proclaiming how proud they are of their purchase!

Edited by Greybeard86
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2 hours ago, novakai said:

for my experience it usually 5 king Brodd to one jack stretcher

Absolutely true. I‘d guess the ratio is even 1:10 ^^
 

Yet this is the first release which apparently caused the majority of vocal people to react in a negative way. 

Edited by JackStreicher

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On 10/9/2020 at 4:09 PM, Marcvs said:

I mean, I agree with many of the points but... has the UK corporate tax rate gone anywhere but down in the last 10 years?

Appreciate this was a few pages back, but GW has been heavily investing in new facilities over the past 10 years, from new plastic production machinery to new factories.  Expenditure like this reduces the amount of profit you make within a year so would result in a lower amount of corporation tax being paid along with general reductions applied by the UK government.  GW's investments are printed in their investor reports too so we can actually see what's been spent.

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36 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Appreciate this was a few pages back, but GW has been heavily investing in new facilities over the past 10 years, from new plastic production machinery to new factories.  Expenditure like this reduces the amount of profit you make within a year so would result in a lower amount of corporation tax being paid along with general reductions applied by the UK government.  GW's investments are printed in their investor reports too so we can actually see what's been spent.

since this resurfaced, I will come back too. The statement I was responding to was this:

Quote

For GW operating costs have increased and the buck gets passed to us the consumer (Why "Raising Taxes on Corporations" doesn't actually "Stick it to the man".)

I have hilighted how there was no "raising taxes on corporation" concerning GW to show how that statement (which has heavy political implications: raising taxes on corporations is actually bad for you the consumer) was simply false. There has been various responses, yours included, which have hilighted raising costs in labour, investment, inflation and so on. All true, however no one has made any argument which support the said hypothesis (the increase of tax rates on corporations is to blame for raising prices).

Edited by Marcvs

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GW lost a lot in my eyes for their groundless price rise. Everything is wrong about this release. Not so big gargant models priced higher than their equivalents like 40k Knights. Old as hell mancrusher gargants increased in price as well. Really, this kind of actions turn me from GW fanatic into dissatisfied customer. They do this once more and I will stop buying at all. There are several other miniature companies on the market.

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Personally I wouldn't pay the prices for Lumineth or SOB but I wouldn't buy them if they were really cheap either. Would I buy expensive minis for factions I like? Hell yes. And if I was into Aelfs or Giants, I wouldn't think about it twice.

Yes, it's not a cheap hobby in relation to others - it's also somewhat cheap compared to other stuff though (see the example of a decent camera with good lenses before). With a few hundred bucks you can usually play the game for many, many years. Yes, other similarly priced things might be used more (let's say a new Playstation 5 but in terms of "cost for fun per hour" (my own personal measurement system) nothing beats videogames, especially those you spend 100s of hours on) but it's all about what you're willing to pay for a hobby. I do understand everyone that doesn't want to commit and if judged in a bubble it is expensive but if you look at in relation to other activities it's not so expensive anymore... 

Going out and getting drunk or eating at a special restaurant is expensive. You can easily spend a 100 bucks while going out and the only thing you get out of it is a headache. :D At least that Giant will be with you for a long time.

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14 minutes ago, MitGas said:

the only thing you get out of it is a headache

You don't even get to have the memories! Seriously though, I have no idea how I used to afford going out. In comparison, Warhammer really isn't that bad. 

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@MitGas finding bad examples of money spent is easy, in contrast here are done subjectively better ways to spent your money on more or less free time activities:

- Fishing: Low costs, joy for life (at the cost of Fish‘s life‘s ofc, yet GW might kill more fish with all the waste they‘re producing)

- Most Tabletop Games that are  not manufactured by GW

- Board Games: A whole game for X players, with rules, lore and everything in one box, insanity!

- Computer Games: While this can be a worse way to spent money in some cases it‘s a better way: Once you‘ve spent 200+ hours in a game you enjoy the Game was an objectively good Investment, without producing any waste (Purely digital games on steam)

- Sports: Once you have the equipment you are good to go for years, while also training your body and improving your mental and physical health.

- DnD: Low cost of entry, all you need is friends and your fantasy, isn‘t that marvelous?

- A little sarcastic this one: Drugs, they cost as much as the TT hobby provided by GW and, just as GW’s products they leave you With a soar body, a short feeling of joy, a hole where your wallet once was and an insatiable addiction for more. Side effects include (depending on product quality) a lingering feeling of unnatural wrath, guilt, disappointment and an everlasting yearning for all your unfulfilled dreams.🤣

Edited by JackStreicher
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9 minutes ago, lare2 said:

You don't even get to have the memories! Seriously though, I have no idea how I used to afford going out. In comparison, Warhammer really isn't that bad. 

Well, in my active Go-out time I had no children, a cheap room and lived off deep-frozen Pizza. That’s a lot of beer. 😄

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