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@Joseph Mackay fully agreed, that's why I went on to note that if you didn't like one aspect you might mitigate it (eg get someone else to do it for you) or draw greater reward from other elements. I think the key is that the post I was responding too was suggesting that long periods of time within the hobby would be a down side to someone (eg building and painting) and my point was that if that was the case either that person understand that, accepts it and draws greater reward later; or that they might want to pause and decide if the hobby really is for them. I've seen people maintain hobbies that they don't enjoy or have moved on from simply because they've "invested" into the hobby and don't want to feel like they've wasted their money. So they keep going even once the fun stopped. 

 

@Grim Beasties sounds like a great plan! As for the industry, right now most of GW's competing brands are far smaller and tend to price lower. So right now the rest of the industry rides under GW in pricing terms, more or less. That said there's also great variation in regions; in the UK GW's prices are not quite as outlandish compared to the competition. However go to other countries and the situation can change quite a bit. So sometimes you see a lot of variation in reports because it comes from gamers in different countries with different comparative breakdowns of prices. 

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I was looking at other similar builds with very few but large models and considered the Baleful Lords. 5 Bloodthirsters plus change is basically the same cost as the SoB army..

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I don't think you can compare a SoB army to a "regular" army in terms of price per point. One has to asses the overall "value" you get out of it and that combines the "hobby" side and the "gaming" part; each person places a different weight on those components (and even within).

Do you get the same "value" out of a 195$ of a single behemoth, or the equivalent money in other ranges? For example, you could get the following (not exact, but orientative):

  1. 1 x10 unit  of vulkite verserkers (60), 1x5 hearthguard (45), 2 heroes (70) and the chosen axes (25)
  2. 1x10 arkanaut company (50), 1 frigate (80), 1 hero (30), thundrik's profiteers (25)
  3. Any start collecting box is 90, so you could possibly take that plus some specific units and have a 1000 points army.

Personally, I think that those megagargants are sold at a very hefty premium because they are targetting the same publics they went after with 40k knights. For my taste, you get too little "value" compared to a true small collection of units that you could get for the same price. But GW isn't targetting people like me, rather those who are willing to pay the "premium" for that powerful fancy centerpiece.

As long as this type of consumers exist and GW keeps market dominance (so they keep being price setters and not price takers), we will see "overpriced" large models.

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I decided to keep to one grand alliance for AoS. And one faction for 40k (which I don't really play yet). Because I keep it to one GA I can at least put anything I buy and paint on the tabletop if I really want to. At all points. Makes it so I don't need to splurge big just to put an army on the table.

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On 10/7/2020 at 2:04 AM, Talas said:

Set up a budget limit and stick with it. Reevalute every year or so.

This is a reasonable suggestion if you feel as though you are getting fair value for the price that you are paying. Budgeting is always a good idea for personal finance.

My issue with the SoB release is that the consumer is not getting fair value. In Aus they cost $320 AUD, that's not fair value at all.

I can "afford" to buy a kit. I can "afford" hundreds of them today, technically, but why the hell would I when there are better things to spend my money on?

No one, well almost no one, has infinite money. As adults we need to buy/pay off property, make investments, save for retirement etc. So fair value is extremely important when deciding how to use the money that we have for discretionary spending. I could spend $320 on this gargant kit, or I could make that $320 go MUCH further in a myriad of other ways.

IMO the only people  at this point who defend GW pricing either a) do not understand the value of money or b) have infinite money. I suspect it is more a) than b).

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58 minutes ago, 123lac said:

This is a reasonable suggestion if you feel as though you are getting fair value for the price that you are paying. Budgeting is always a good idea for personal finance.

My issue with the SoB release is that the consumer is not getting fair value. In Aus they cost $320 AUD, that's not fair value at all.

I can "afford" to buy a kit. I can "afford" hundreds of them today, technically, but why the hell would I when there are better things to spend my money on?

No one, well almost no one, has infinite money. As adults we need to buy/pay off property, make investments, save for retirement etc. So fair value is extremely important when deciding how to use the money that we have for discretionary spending. I could spend $320 on this gargant kit, or I could make that $320 go MUCH further in a myriad of other ways.

IMO the only people  at this point who defend GW pricing either a) do not understand the value of money or b) have infinite money. I suspect it is more a) than b).

I agree, but don't forget that some people spend millions of dollars on expensive purchases like yachts or sports teams.

 

Therefore $380, if you live in NZ, for a plastic toy is completely reasonable and beyond critism.

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10 minutes ago, EasyArmy said:

I agree, but don't forget that some people spend millions of dollars on expensive purchases like yachts or sports teams.

 

Therefore $380, if you live in NZ, for a plastic toy is completely reasonable and beyond critism.

Haha, I know you're joking but there really are some people who draw these sorts of comparisons with a straight face.

*edit I saw someone on facebook say their trip up Mt Everest cost more than their Warhammer collection, therefore Warhammer is reasonably priced. He must have lost some brain capacity in the high altitude 😂

Edited by 123lac
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1 hour ago, 123lac said:

This is a reasonable suggestion if you feel as though you are getting fair value for the price that you are paying. Budgeting is always a good idea for personal finance.

My issue with the SoB release is that the consumer is not getting fair value. In Aus they cost $320 AUD, that's not fair value at all.

 Exactly my problem with the way prices are going. I've got the money to buy the models, and I have a budget set up to keep everything financially in check and managed. The issue is that one mega gargant is 2 months of hobby budget for a model that, if I were to really work on doing a good job, would probably take me 2 weeks of hobby time to finish. The value just isn't there. For the same cost I can easily get a box of troops, a different big monster, and maybe an elite unit to top it off. I'll get far more hobby enjoyment and time out of those models than I could ever get out of the mega gargant.

I'm not really too fussed right now, it's not like I was planning on starting up a Lumineth or Sons army anyway. However if we see all the future armies and resculpts getting priced in these ranges then... well the game doesn't really have much of a future for me. I can still make the rounds and expand my current collections for a while but I'll be off to try something different before too long.

Edited by Grimrock
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9 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

 Exactly my problem with the way prices are going. I've got the money to buy the models, and I have a budget set up to keep everything financially in check and managed. The issue is that one mega gargant is 2 months of hobby budget for a model that, if I were to really work on doing a good job, would probably take me 2 weeks of hobby time to finish. The value just isn't there. For the same cost I can easily get a box of troops, a different big monster, and maybe an elite unit to top it off. I'll get far more hobby enjoyment and time out of those models than I could ever get out of the mega gargant.

I'm not really too fussed right now, it's not like I was planning on starting up a Lumineth or Sons army anyway. However if we see all the future armies and resculpts getting priced in these ranges then... well the game doesn't really have much of a future for me. I can still make the rounds and expand my current collections for a while but I'll be off to try something different before too long.

Fortunately there are so many affordable alternatives models, starting at $12 Canadian upwards, of giants ranging from 105-190 mm that there is no reason not to build a SoB army. 

 

No reason not to play the army if the desire exists.

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5 hours ago, 123lac said:

This is a reasonable suggestion if you feel as though you are getting fair value for the price that you are paying. Budgeting is always a good idea for personal finance.

My issue with the SoB release is that the consumer is not getting fair value. In Aus they cost $320 AUD, that's not fair value at all.

I can "afford" to buy a kit. I can "afford" hundreds of them today, technically, but why the hell would I when there are better things to spend my money on?

No one, well almost no one, has infinite money. As adults we need to buy/pay off property, make investments, save for retirement etc. So fair value is extremely important when deciding how to use the money that we have for discretionary spending. I could spend $320 on this gargant kit, or I could make that $320 go MUCH further in a myriad of other ways.

IMO the only people  at this point who defend GW pricing either a) do not understand the value of money or b) have infinite money. I suspect it is more a) than b).

While I agree that megagargants are overpriced for what they give you (see my previous post), I think this is a bit unfair. One could make similar comments about people buying certain luxury brands (say for shoes, or handbags) instead of simply  premium / high quality.

GW operates in a similar manner, they (over)hype with marketing a model, and they have powerful marketing tools through all the fluff / lore machinery they have assembled over the years; plus the rules on the table.  At that point, it is no longer plastic, or the number of models, or the quality of the sculpt; it is the mega gargant! It is a son of B, the powerful unit with tons of special rules that makes more or less equally powerful as a whole unit of elite troops. See? Now you have people comparing it in price per point to other armies. 
 

It is this capacity of GW to modify its value above what it is in terms of the physical good that allows them to have such high prices (and margins). And this is the same that luxury brands do. So people do understand the value of money, it’s just that we have all bought, to different degrees, into the GW fantasy. Otherwise, let’s be frank, in terms of pure plastic there are infinitely better value propositions out there.

Essentially, GW operates under a monopolistic competition model. It strives to create product that is different from that of the competition in both physical shape (the whole heroic scale),  functionality in game (all the conventions forcing official models in tournies), and the fluff around the model (it is not a giant, it is a son of B; cannot be compared to previous behemoth models with similar plastic and detail). 
 

As consumers, we suffer from this in terms oh higher prices and being more at the mercy of the company (they discontinue ranges, what will you do? It is THE dominant company). At the same time, GW products typically had a lot more support than other companies, that co e and go, and are globally known (both play and resell value). There aren’t many player sponsored games achieving that (chess, and more, bit wargames?). Given the IP and trademark mined field it will be hard for anything like that to emerge. Funny enough, GW was originally a bit like that, they just blatantly copied the popular fantasy tropes and made them into an absurd universe. Now they turn around and want to copyright this aggressively, potentially killing any new company that may wish to do the same.

anyway, rant over :P

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Coming from the view of AUD pricing its just shy of 1000 dollars to start the aemy if you take three big bois and there is still no battle line in there, now do other armies end up costing that much? Sure but you can at least play a smaller game or build up the force i just don't feel you can do that with SoB.

 

Imagine walking into a GW picking up the book thinking its dope getting psyched then turning around to buy a model for it. Its a far cry from buying a box of snake ladies or some skeletons

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Thing is gargant or knight armies are always going to be that way. Because they might not work so well at lower point matches they are going to be top loaded. At the same time you might only own a handful of models. That means you can likely build and paint them in a fraction of the time of a skaven clan-rat swarm based army. 

Also  I suspect GW knows many won't build a gargaent army right off the bat. Instead I think they expect people will buy one Gargant for their current army as an ally. Then if they get an army from another Grand Alliance they might get a second one. Now they've got two models that fit into two different armies, but which are already half way to a 2K full Gargant army of their own. So now getting 1 more and some aleguzzler gargants isn't a huge barrier of entry. I suspect this is how they expect many will build them - its more an army people build on the side rather than perhaps one they set out to build. 

 

And at the same time there are going to be those who want a gargants army more than anything and will set out to build it. In the end I suspect the 2K cost is going to be fairly similar to some armies. Some will be cheaper and some more expensive to hit that line. 

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1 hour ago, Overread said:

Now they've got two models that fit into two different armies,

Mhm I don‘t know, GW might think like that, yet I am expecting people either to buy one model and use it as counts as in other GAs or to build their own generic one which will also be used as counts as 🤔

they really shot themselves in the foot with that price.

Edited by JackStreicher
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2 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

While I agree that megagargants are overpriced for what they give you (see my previous post), I think this is a bit unfair. One could make similar comments about people buying certain luxury brands (say for shoes, or handbags) instead of simply  premium / high quality.

GW operates in a similar manner, they (over)hype with marketing a model, and they have powerful marketing tools through all the fluff / lore machinery they have assembled over the years; plus the rules on the table.  At that point, it is no longer plastic, or the number of models, or the quality of the sculpt; it is the mega gargant! It is a son of B, the powerful unit with tons of special rules that makes more or less equally powerful as a whole unit of elite troops. See? Now you have people comparing it in price per point to other armies. 

It is this capacity of GW to modify its value above what it is in terms of the physical good that allows them to have such high prices (and margins). And this is the same that luxury brands do. So people do understand the value of money, it’s just that we have all bought, to different degrees, into the GW fantasy. Otherwise, let’s be frank, in terms of pure plastic there are infinitely better value propositions out there.

Essentially, GW operates under a monopolistic competition model. It strives to create product that is different from that of the competition in both physical shape (the whole heroic scale),  functionality in game (all the conventions forcing official models in tournies), and the fluff around the model (it is not a giant, it is a son of B; cannot be compared to previous behemoth models with similar plastic and detail). 

As consumers, we suffer from this in terms oh higher prices and being more at the mercy of the company (they discontinue ranges, what will you do? It is THE dominant company). At the same time, GW products typically had a lot more support than other companies, that co e and go, and are globally known (both play and resell value). There aren’t many player sponsored games achieving that (chess, and more, bit wargames?). Given the IP and trademark mined field it will be hard for anything like that to emerge. Funny enough, GW was originally a bit like that, they just blatantly copied the popular fantasy tropes and made them into an absurd universe. Now they turn around and want to copyright this aggressively, potentially killing any new company that may wish to do the same.

anyway, rant over :P

About the looks being different, I think Mantic did a better job of it than GW:

Shadowhulk.jpeg.92895bae4f101a196de5d59198b23062.jpegKoW-Northern-Alliance-Frost-Giant-isolated_WEB.png.575ee1872835c1645f5ddfcb469df59b.pngKOW-Giant.jpeg.bb696f2bf9131e6b26828b230151158b.jpeg

These three are from the same set, the same size of a mega gargant, and the three of them are the price of one mega gargant.

Edited by zilberfrid
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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

These three are from the same set, the same size of a mega gargant, and the three of them are the price of one mega gargant.

 

And if you just stick to the basic, cheapest Mantic giant (the third one, which still has some customisation options!) you can literally get a full SoB force for a price of a single GW mega gargant.

My advice for anyone getting priced out would be, as some already mentioned, is asking yourself if you're really hell bent on playing in GW stores and tournaments. Because if not, there are a lot of alternative models, many of them of similar quality. Personally, hen I've started my current army projects I decided to go GW only, but I've come to regret it and probably won't be doing it ever again. Too many good options on the market.

Also, I've been GW's customer for years, but in all honesty, i feel personally offended at the notion of SoB warscroll cards. 4 units, 3 mercenary companies (that a] you won't use if you want to play SoB, b] are technically the same as 3 of those 4 units!) for that price? That's beyond reason.

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I know it’s fairly obvious but it’s worth checking out eBay, probably won’t see any cheap Gargants on there for a while but I’m sure they’ll crop up, people still list stuff they don’t know the value of. Got a launch box of Lumineth for £69 new which I was pretty pleased with.

I have to confess I thought the hobby was expensive back in the late 90s early 2000s but Jesus it’s worse now.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

About the looks being different, I think Mantic did a better job of it than GW:

...

These three are from the same set, the same size of a mega gargant, and the three of them are the price of one mega gargant.

Those are like, next level european/spanish competition level paint jobs. They look stunning, but sometimes it becomes hard to see what the models look like without that level of skill 🤣

I find the GW in house paintjobs usually to be a more fair representation of what things will look like painted 😆

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I am hopeful other armies won t reach prices of SoB or lrl. GW  has always had some armies that were a  much higher $$ investment that others and I see these last two as such. It s a shame that they released these two consecutively in a global pandemic where many people struggle financially. This may unfortunately have been a factor in gw pricing decision. Considering less people will buy their new releases this year, they are trying to recoup their cost and meet their numbers with less buyers. It may have been the wrong decision I have no idea but I feel for our sob and lrl players

Edited by azdimy

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1 hour ago, azdimy said:

Condidering less people will buy their new releases this year,

Shows you how much they care about the consumers- it‘s not like GW just had the best year ever despite COVID 🤷🏼‍♂️

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14 hours ago, 123lac said:

IMO the only people  at this point who defend GW pricing either a) do not understand the value of money or b) have infinite money. I suspect it is more a) than b).

Or c) Have finite surplus money and place their own value upon it. 

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6 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Or c) Have finite surplus money and place their own value upon it. 

Sorry, but this falls into a) as it involves wasting a finite resource.

Curious to know what the 'priced out' point is for some of the more die hard fanboys. Is it $1000 for one kit? $2000? $5000? There has to be a point, unless you're a billionaire.

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7 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Shows you how much they care about the consumers- it‘s not like GW just had the best year ever despite COVID 🤷🏼‍♂️

Global pandemic = absolute gold rush for GW.

 

image.png.1ba72f4466e5f3cb56367a9a11597b6f.png

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50 minutes ago, 123lac said:

Sorry, but this falls into a) as it involves wasting a finite resource.

Curious to know what the 'priced out' point is for some of the more die hard fanboys. Is it $1000 for one kit? $2000? $5000? There has to be a point, unless you're a billionaire.

I don't know that I'd say I'm priced out in general, but I'm priced out of this army in that the main model for it is, in my opinion, not worth the money. Can I afford to grab a few? Sure! Would I have buyer's remorse instantly? You betchya!

I suspect that once the world gets back to normal-ish, and we can go to conventions and stores safely, we'll be able to walk in, see 10 of this kit on a shelf (the retailer bought a bunch based on hype), and make an offer:

"I see you have 10 megagargants. Probably been sitting there a while. Inventory taxes are due in a month, eh? Tell you what. I'll buy two of them if you throw in a third one for free."

$133 each instead of $195? That's closer to reasonable ($125 would be right, I believe). I'll be priced back in at that point.

Edited by Sleboda
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50 minutes ago, 123lac said:

Global pandemic = absolute gold rush for GW.

 

image.png.1ba72f4466e5f3cb56367a9a11597b6f.png

I'm very much looking forward to their next dip back into the $100 range.  I last bought in at $43-ish. Kicking myself for not getting more then.

If the winter creates supply issues again, there will be a dip. Buy at that point, and then it should shoot up again as people re-hunker down to hobby in safety.

 

We can all come out of this pandemic with new armies painted, and our investment returns paying for our $200 model kits. :)

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51 minutes ago, 123lac said:

Sorry, but this falls into a) as it involves wasting a finite resource.

Curious to know what the 'priced out' point is for some of the more die hard fanboys. Is it $1000 for one kit? $2000? $5000? There has to be a point, unless you're a billionaire.

You classify it as being in a) because you have made the decision that the price for a Megagargant is not fair and therefore anybody who disagrees with your decision does not know the value of money.  But money is simply a means of purchasing things and therefore the value of money per se is subjective.  Your value of money is yours, nobody elses.  If I have a different outlook on the monetary value of a Megagargant, it simply means that I see the value of money differently from you - it does not mean I do not understand the value of money.

You say you could spend  $320 on a Megagargant or make that $320 go much further.  I say I want a Megagargant can I afford to buy one.  It's a matter of perspective.

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