Getting Priced Out

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

53 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Heroscape was doing fine, until Wizards Of The Coast got their hands on it and forced Dungeons And Dragons down everyone’s throat. Everything released after that point was something from D&D rather than the Heroscape universe. It lasted 2 or 3 waves after that and then they canceled it because they wanted to focus on D&D instead. Heroscape had about 10 waves of releases plus expansion boxes (like a castle building set) and exclusives before the D&D takeover, for comparison 

Huh the more you know, I just remembered a friend of mine had the starter set as a kid and just never saw any other instance of it afterwards. Guess it just didn't catch on in my local area growing up. Bit of a shame to hear WotC killed, then again I doubt they cared much over their cash cow money from magic.

[zilberfrid]

I haven't played it, and it came out at the awful timing of April this year, but I have yet to read a negative review of Oathmark, for people that like games bigger than skirmish.

[MarkK]

3 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I haven't played it, and it came out at the awful timing of April this year, but I have yet to read a negative review of Oathmark, for people that like games bigger than skirmish.

Interested in Oathmark too, quite like the range, especially the light infantry elves. The previewed skeletons look great.

I recently got the Warlords of Erehwon rulebook after hearing good things. Haven't played as game yet, but liking the look of it. As I said in the rumour thread I could probably build two armies using Oathmark mini's for the price of one new giant.

[Kramer]

12 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

but it just looks bad in comparison because the proportions don't fit with other vendors (and the sculpts don't hold up).

That was my point. 
If you make the choice to go to another vendor it’s on you to make sure it fits. 
 

12 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

e, the producer of the game forces the choice between tossing the old models or going for another vendor that didn't mess that up so badly.

Or, controversially, use the models they produce instead of tossing them or getting other models. But if you do get models from other producers it’s on you to make sure they fit.

but it’s a super subjective line to draw. So it’s fine if you and me differ on this. 
But I do get the GW models only in events and do support that, as long as conversions are allowed. 

[zilberfrid]

47 minutes ago, Kramer said:

That was my point. 
If you make the choice to go to another vendor it’s on you to make sure it fits. 

I agree, and it's making GW models less interesting for me because I don't play Warhammer. Things like Snotlings do still work, (because they are at a proper goblin level now), as well as things like Ogres that I don't mind getting bigger.

48 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Or, controversially, use the models they produce instead of tossing them or getting other models. But if you do get models from other producers it’s on you to make sure they fit.

I don't have my metal dwarves at home, but I'll make a picture of two models GW calls Longbeards. You can't put them in the same unit because GW is bad at keeping a scale, so if you want extra models; the old ones are no longer in production, and the new ones don't fit. I'll also add in an Atlantis female dwarf. She'd fit better than their own product.

[EccentricCircle]

Since I'm mainly an rpg player I have quite an eclectic mix of scales and styles in my collection. ( off the top of my head Reaper, mantic, midlam, Perry, warlord, wargames foundry, gripping beast, frostgrave, WotC, Wizkids and more. Plus warhammer models from three decades which gradually get larger through time, and lots of Lord of the Rings stuff.) 

Scales range from true 25mm for the historical stuff, to pretty much 30mm for modern warhammer and a lot of Reaper figures. Some are heroic, some not. If you put really small figures by really bug ones it looks ridiculous, but I've found that if you mix them up a lot, and use different thicknesses of base and terrain, they can look ok at tabletop scale. I'll try to post my Araby Freeguild/cities army if I get time later, as an example. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by EccentricCircle

[RuneBrush]

15 hours ago, Overread said:

Part of it is that GW never took out loans to expand. A lot of the big highstreet names take out big loans as they expand which lets them expand at a very rapid rate. However it also leaves the firm holding huge amounts of debt. What tends to happen over and over again is that the economy at large has a downturn, which results in the brand having a downturn and their income starts to hit their ability to repay the loans. Ontop of that you've still got upper managers who want good pay and rewards. So the company has a high operating cost and when it comes to the loans they can't just downsize it all. It kills many of them.

GW in contrast doesn't have the loans; if they need to downsize to save costs then its 100% all in house. 

Would absolutely agree with this.  It's the same attitude that my current and previous employer has taken - if you can't afford it, you can't have it.  I've had some great conversations over the years with them and it's such a simple concept, but really easy to be swept along in the current day of borrowing.  Another line of thinking is that when there's a downturn that's the point to invest if you've money in the bank.

It's also worth pointing out that over the years GW has been very shrewd in what they've invested in - plastic development is a good example, GW invested huge amounts of money into improving their plastic production facilities (including brining it in house), the end result is that they're able to produce vastly superior products in comparison to their competitors.

[Overread]

In many ways GW's niche protects it and lets it also deal in that way of business. I think a lot of the "big names" like clothing brands get wrapped up in the competitive market so much that they feel they must expand rapidly and with big loans so that their competition (which often is much bigger than them) doesn't overrun them by repeating the same idea faster. Of course its a self defeating cycle because their competition is likely loaded up with debt too so they are all in the same boat, which means they all tend to sink together. 

GW has a powerful brand and I think there's likely a few firms going "Darn I wish we'd noticed that market" right now. But at the same time its not a market they can scale up to "national level" supply and demand. If anything its the kind of market you'd see someone from "Dragons Den" type shows passing over because the profits aren't potentially great enough for them. Which means GW could grow slower. They didn't need to worry that Sony or Nike was going to release their own model line in a few months and put it in every store nation wide at a slightly cheaper or equal price. 

[zilberfrid]

There are lots of companies making minis at a cheaper price. GW just has momentum.

There's simply a store that caters to the product, and lots of players so you can easily find a game.

The game mechanically fits an image they want to paint with their models, and this works for them. This differentiation is bigger than with other games I've read.

They do have high quality in their recent sculpts, but it's not overwhelming compared to recent Renedra castings.

I consider consistency and balance more important than that differentiation, so I play different games.

I also prefer human shaped humans to the higher detailing of GW's recent stuff, so except for a few select sets I prefer different vendors.

[Overread]

I think GW has more than momentum. I also think that we have to consider that many of their competition are much smaller and whilst this nets them much smaller markets, it also means that their operating costs are much lower. GW are by no means tight to the wire in running, but at the same time they do run a much larger organisation. One that produces books, art, stories, fluff, events, stores on the highstreet. Places where we can go and play the game. 

I also think that one big thing people overlook is that GW doesn't rest on its profits. Sure they have shareholders and higher staff who get good profits from the sales; but at the same time GW has always reinvested its profits back into themselves and into the hobby. The reason we see such huge strides taken in plastic casting and development; why we can see them outputting so many new models (that we want to buy); so many new games and such. All that is because Gw invests back into itself which is a win win for them and us. 

[EccentricCircle]

Part of the reason they have that momentum is down to what is called "network externalities". Essentially, in order to play a game, you need to be able to find other people to play it with you.

The more people play a game the easier it becomes to play that game, and so the more people will play it, creating a positive feedback loop.

For games with smaller fanbases, the niche remains small, or even shrinks as potential players aren't able to find people to play with, so drop out.

There is an argument to be made that GW's games aren't the best on the market, far more innovative and pleasant to play games are out there. However they have such high network externalities that a vast and loyal fanbase will always come back to their games, no matter how much they might complain about the rules, and wish they played something else.

 

This is why games like Warhammer, D&D and Magic continue to have such a huge market share. Smaller companies need to work much harder to compete without that built in audience.

Edited October 9, 2020 by EccentricCircle

[JackStreicher]

15 hours ago, Hannibal said:

You´re now at 175 hours of fun for a max 650 Euros invest, equaling in roughly 3,70 per hour.

assuming painting is fun to that person, which is an assumption you cannot make. It might as well be a chore to a person that prefers playing over painting, out of a sudden your calculation is actually wasted time and not quality time. Seldom people are in this hobby because they enjoy every aspect of it.

 

Edit: You are now at 75 hours of additional work  (painting) that isn't paid. A Video game comes straight out of the box and a good one offers you easily 200+ hours of fun. So the Miniature is suddenly a bad deal.

Edited October 9, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Overread]

32 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

assuming painting is fun to that person, which is an assumption you cannot make. It might as well be a chore to a person that prefers playing over painting, out of a sudden your calculation is actually wasted time and not quality time. Seldom people are in this hobby because they enjoy every aspect of it.

 

Edit: You are now at 75 hours of additional work  (painting) that isn't paid. A Video game comes straight out of the box and a good one offers you easily 200+ hours of fun. So the Miniature is suddenly a bad deal.

Aye, but if you hate a core part of a hobby then perhaps the hobby isn't for you. 

Or you mitigate it  by getting secondhand prepainted models; or you commission someone to paint for you. You'd likely also have more free time and dedicate it toward playing more matches so you'd still make up the hours; just more in game time. Or you'd value each hour more highly (derive greater enjoyment). 

 

In the end we all have to work out the cost to engage with a hobby in money and our time. If we come up short on either or both we have to pause and reflect if this is really a good hobby for us at this point in time. Sometimes we have to put hobbies on hold or decide that we like the concept but not the actual experience. Heck I like Magic the Gathering as a concept. I like collecting; I like the card artwork; I like the mechanics of the gameplay. 

But - I'm not very good at playing. I dislike the meta of building decks specifically from chosen cards as opposed to random packs; I don't spot powerful combos readily enough (ergo can't build a powerful deck); and I can't compete at a higher level where I'd feel comfortable with my performance. 

I've had times when its fun with specific groups of people, but in the end its just not a hobby for me unless I'm willing and able to change my attitude and invest more time into learning. Or refocus and abandon some elements (gameplay) and focus more on others (collecting). 

 

 

It's not MTG's fault; its not local clubs fault. No one is to "blame" its just not a perfect fit. 

40K and AoS and GW can be the same for others. 

[EccentricCircle]

3 hours ago, Overread said:

Aye, but if you hate a core part of a hobby then perhaps the hobby isn't for you. 

Or you mitigate it  by getting secondhand prepainted models; or you commission someone to paint for you. You'd likely also have more free time and dedicate it toward playing more matches so you'd still make up the hours; just more in game time. Or you'd value each hour more highly (derive greater enjoyment). 

 

In the end we all have to work out the cost to engage with a hobby in money and our time. If we come up short on either or both we have to pause and reflect if this is really a good hobby for us at this point in time. Sometimes we have to put hobbies on hold or decide that we like the concept but not the actual experience. Heck I like Magic the Gathering as a concept. I like collecting; I like the card artwork; I like the mechanics of the gameplay. 

But - I'm not very good at playing. I dislike the meta of building decks specifically from chosen cards as opposed to random packs; I don't spot powerful combos readily enough (ergo can't build a powerful deck); and I can't compete at a higher level where I'd feel comfortable with my performance. 

I've had times when its fun with specific groups of people, but in the end its just not a hobby for me unless I'm willing and able to change my attitude and invest more time into learning. Or refocus and abandon some elements (gameplay) and focus more on others (collecting). 

 

 

It's not MTG's fault; its not local clubs fault. No one is to "blame" its just not a perfect fit. 

40K and AoS and GW can be the same for others. 

I think Warhammer wins because there is that whole second side to the hobby though. Pretty much everything you said about struggling with Magic is precisely my experience of playing Warhammer (and magic for that matter...)

The reason that I have multiple warhammer armies and am always getting more, whereas I've never collected magic cards is that you can get so much out of warhammer without ever playing a game. I enjoy the collecting, building, painting, modelling, setting up dioramas, and using the minis for other games. I enjoy reading the books, looking at the maps and imagining how my models could fit into fictional worlds.

I enjoy that side of the hobby so much that it is more than worth the cost of entry. While I kind of enjoy the art of magic cards and would definitely get into the collecting if I let myself, it lacks any additional draw. Its thus not worth the cost of entry (thankfully, I do not need another geek hobby...) then as you say, rarely, with the right group of people a game can occasionally be fun.

This hobby offers such a multifaceted experience that everyone* can come at it from their own direction, and find something they enjoy in it.

 

*Your mileage may vary, terms and conditions apply.

[Overread]

I agree you can get a lot of satisfaction and enjoyment building and painting from Warhammer. Plus I find that collecting is more fun because GW updates stuff far slower - MTG you can't easily casually collect because each year there's several new blocks of several hundred cards each. It's a fast turn-over of product which, honestly, works well for MTG and the stores that supply it; but it makes casual collecting a bit of a rush. 

 

 

Of course if MTG slowed down and I picked it up casually I'd likely then be saying "It's nice but I wish they released stuff faster"

[Fairbanks]

On 10/7/2020 at 5:40 AM, Scurvydog said:

The sons release is disappointing due to pricing. I expected the big guys to cost the same as archaon

This pretty much sums up my opinion on the price of the big dudes. It's $30 more, you'll need at least 2 if not 3 for a SoB army, a lot of other players might be picking one up for their own army thanks to them being mercs, and they are too pricey to end up in a Discounted Box in the future anyway (Unless we get a Gargant v Gargant game like Imperial Knights Renegade). So I don't really know why it's this high, and that's my complaint. As such, I've changed my design of that army to getting 1 and settling at 1,000 points, instead of possibly going to 2k and getting 3 (what I would have done at a $140-150 pricetag)

I collect every army, and just have an odd, unique stance on the whole "Pricing Out" commentary:

I get the OP's point, because prices have vastly gone up for a lot of new models compared to old ones:

Compare a $36 10-man Cadian unit vs $60 Vulkite Berzerkers. $45 Fellwater Troggoths vs $60 Rockgut Troggoths (New sculpts for the latter). Clampacks used to be $15-20 and now in the $30 range.

Big Boxes have gone up in price every year for the past three and greatly over the past five/six.

(As recently as 2014) Island of Blood: $100

- Aug 2015: AoS Starter Set $125

- Dec 2016: Spire of Dawn (Can't find exact, but everything says ~$100)

- Sept 2017: Blightwar $160 (I swear it was $150, but everything says otherwise)

- July 2018: Soul Wars $160

- Feb 2019: Carrion Empire $160

- Nov 2019: Feast of Bones $195

- 2019 XMas Bundles: $170-185

That doesn't include a few "Starter Sets" like Necromunda or Adeptus Titanicus that are way over $200.

For GW operating costs have increased and the buck gets passed to us the consumer (Why "Raising Taxes on Corporations" doesn't actually "Stick it to the man".) Yes, their revenue has increased enough to keep them profitable, but GW is unusual as a company in which it doesn't carry debt. Thus that extra profit is helping it survive this Covid Emergency.

A few good counter examples that have helped for a collector such as myself:

- Contrast paints reduce the amount of time spent painting, thus the price 'premium' vs regular pots is balanced vs time spent.

- Old Battlalion Boxes vs Start Collecting Boxes. The former are quite boring, but could be rebought to make larger units. SC Boxes are great for initially starting, but (generally) are terrible for growing the army. The Fyreslayers box might be great for savings, but if I'm wanting a 40 man blob of Berzerkers, I don't have a need for the extra 2 Magmadroths, so why would I buy it?

- There are savings every time there is a box set collecting a lot of models vs their individual counterparts. Thus, I'm complaining less about the price of a Start Collecting box going up, and more about how the contents of the Gloomspite Gitz box isn't very synergistic.

- Search for pricey heroes in places where there is a cheaper option (Warhammer Underworlds boxes)

- The Looncurse, Aether War, and upcoming Shadow & Pain boxes have pretty much let me know that I shouldn't bother buying any of the overpriced $50 3-man kits, since they'll be sold in a Big army vs army box one day. Now I just have to complain loudly that GW need to print enough so I can get my hands on one.

- If you don't mind other aesthetics bumping in, or your quality of the model you are buying doesn't matter, 100% consider buying from other companies

For that insane person like myself who wants to collect everything, you need to decide what your limiting factors are and build the collection based on that. For me, I like aesthetics and ease of building/painting first, then money, and my patience in this regard is near-infinite, thus I'm likely to buy GW, buy new vs used, and wait for boxes with a collection of models that I'm looking for, instead of buying one off boxes of everything the day they hit the shelves.

Just as a final example, currently my OBR army is just the Feast of Bones half. I'm waiting for the inevitable OBR Battleforce Box (which I assume is probably this Christmas), and might consider a Start Collecting box when it comes out.

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Fairbanks said:

For GW operating costs have increased and the buck gets passed to us the consumer (Why "Raising Taxes on Corporations" doesn't actually "Stick it to the man".)

I mean, I agree with many of the points but... has the UK corporate tax rate gone anywhere but down in the last 10 years?

[Latty]

On 10/6/2020 at 9:15 AM, Grim Beasties said:

So this is a continuation of the SoB price conversation that was in the rumor thread. I've been in this for most of my life, but these prices are getting to the point where I just can't anymore. If anyone has any ideas on how to help spend less for models please let me know, I don't want to leave this hobby but at this rate I might not have a choice.

Befriend store owners who will get you under the table prices

[Overread]

39 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

I mean, I agree with many of the points but... has the UK corporate tax rate gone anywhere but down in the last 10 years?

GW relies heavily on UK trade and employees so chances are they likely pay most of their taxes legitimately. Ergo they are likely not using creative tax havens to get around taxes. Which means even if the UK Corporate tax rate isn't doing much, GW is still likely paying a proper amount of it.
Plus whilst that might not have gone up; wages have; highstreet rental and business rates for the highstreet have also gone WAY up. It's why so many smaller stores are closing down and so many retail names are suffering. Food outlets tend to be ok, but even they can come easily unstuck. The highstreet is just not a good place right now and many stores are having to trade online to make up enough to stay open; or have a very good reputation and niche. 

I've seen most UK highstreets suffering; an increase of food outlets; charity shops (no rates; no tax; often most of the stock and staff are free too or dirt cheap); mobile phone shops (tiny things that only need to sell high priced contracts); whilst hobby, retail and many other shops are dwindling. Even clothing and shoe shops seem to open and close fairly quickly (new hands take over; run out of cash and close down etc...). Hobby shops in general are really struggling - we've seen some newer ones opening paird with food outlets and the like and even they have to push further out of the central business areas - which means less footfall. 

25 minutes ago, Latty said:

Befriend store owners who will get you under the table prices

Which is fine, except store owners giving you discounts are simply hoping that you'll spend more money in volume rather than individual purchases. They want/need X amount out of you in order to stay operational. So they can't give mates-rates to everyone. 

[Fairbanks]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

I mean, I agree with many of the points but... has the UK corporate tax rate gone anywhere but down in the last 10 years?

A tax decrease lowers a company's costs. Lower costs usually begin as increased profits, which then allow a company to invest. Whether they invest in a pay raise for executives (if you have just hired great leadership, you might just to keep them onboard), invest in a way to lower their costs even further, or invest to expand into new areas (new shop and manager somewhere there wasn't), that's a decision for that company to make.

Companies can also use a cost decrease to lower their own prices, making their location more likely to be visited and their product bought. But that's only going to happen if there is an active competitor putting pressure on the company's potential sales.

So why hasn't GW lowered prices? GW doesn't have the exact same competitors for their AoS and 40K products. You can buy other Giants, similar looking Space Marine or xenos armies, you can buy into other game systems. They bank on you playing their game, buying into their 'classic' IP, the quality of their miniatures, etc. There isn't a need to drop prices. Yes, 3D printers will inevitably put a squeeze on them, but not until the resin becomes less toxic, print quality greatly increases for filament printers, and the price per printer drops to where everyone can get one for the same price as a paper printer.  You then have won't have popular momentum to build interest unless you have a place to play with strangers, which the modern day FLGS gets squeezed on as people find deals on product from online stores.

1 hour ago, Overread said:

Which is fine, except store owners giving you discounts are simply hoping that you'll spend more money in volume rather than individual purchases. They want/need X amount out of you in order to stay operational. So they can't give mates-rates to everyone. 

Or they are hoping you spend it there rather than elsewhere. If I'm going to buy it regardless, and everywhere else is offering 15% off, I'm going to the guy who has it for 20% off (unless he's a really shady guy, or has screwed over individuals in the past). If he can sell it for 20% off and stay in business, more power to him.

[Overread]

It's not just a case of GW having less competition - its also the fact that over the last years GW can't keep up with demand. They even bought land and built a brand new factory in the UK to deal with this. So from their point of view the prices are in the right place because they are selling so well they've had to reinvest a huge amount to increase production. A competitor "MIGHT" force GW's prices to lower, but that assumes the competitor won't price at GW's rate. Perhaps they'd like the extra profits or perhaps they also find the running costs and expansion costs great enough that they need a higher price as well.

[Greybeard86]

34 minutes ago, Overread said:

It's not just a case of GW having less competition - its also the fact that over the last years GW can't keep up with demand. They even bought land and built a brand new factory in the UK to deal with this. So from their point of view the prices are in the right place because they are selling so well they've had to reinvest a huge amount to increase production. A competitor "MIGHT" force GW's prices to lower, but that assumes the competitor won't price at GW's rate. Perhaps they'd like the extra profits or perhaps they also find the running costs and expansion costs great enough that they need a higher price as well.

The current prices are, without an ounce of doubt, the result of GW's dominant market position.

I am sorry, the rest of things that you are saying do not line up well with standard industrial organization theory and evidence.

Personally, I welcome any competition GW might have because it will almost certainly benefit us, consumers. Besides that, the thread is a bit an "old man yells at the sun" kind of thing. If the megagargants are "overpriced", and they do not meet their target sales because of it, then they'll just adjust behavior for future releases and do bundles or other similar stuff with gargants in the future.

[Enoby]

I do hope that there will be an equivalent of that 40k Knights duel boxset for the megagargants at some point

[Joseph Mackay]

10 hours ago, Overread said:

Aye, but if you hate a core part of a hobby then perhaps the hobby isn't for you. 

That’s not really yours or anyone else’s decision to make though. People can and should be able to enjoy the hobby however they want to. When I turn up to a game, do I want to see a fully painted army facing off against me? Yes. Do I care if it’s just an army of grey plastic? Not really no, because they aren’t my models and I have no say in what that person does with them.

I have a love-hate relationship with the painting side of the hobby, I’m more interested in playing the game than anything else. I used to paint because I felt like I had to. That’s not to say that sometimes I actually enjoy painting though 

[Grim Beasties]

Hey everyone OP here, just wanted to say extremely thankful for all the great responses. I think after having time to think about it I'm finally able to articulate a response. First off I would like to apologize if I came off as too dramatic, I'm not the best at writing and the news of the pricing came to me at an all ready high anxiety time. But now, with everyone's advice and suggestions I think I know what I'm going to do. I mainly like the narrative, building, and painting side off the hobby, and I definitely have models that I have to finish before I should buy new model. For now I'll keep up with the hobby with books but I'll slow things down. Look for better deals and get some of the less expensive giants at some point and heavily convert them. I've been meaning to look for time to work on scratch terrain and my evolution game.

On the actual issue of pricing, I do feel GW is going too high with its price and I am worried about how it's affecting the industry.

I would once again like to thank everyone for the help and interesting replies.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Grim Beasties