Getting Priced Out

[Mattrulesok]

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Steal all you can comrades. 

 

In other news I bought a giant from mantic for £25 that fits the bill perfectly and saved me £95 🤑

[Saxon]

15 hours ago, Cordova said:

Actually casting the models is cheap, but designing the models and making the moulds is less so.  According to N1SB on the Bolter and Chainsword who's gone through their accounts, their profit margin is in line with Lego - about 75% (obviously, that includes logistics, store costs, pensions, etc), which is still seriously high.

Designing models? They'd be making a fortune on those potato space marine releases they've been vomiting out lately which look like half baked attempts to Frankenstein two existing kits together to make a new one. 

[Kirby]

8 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

These should all be humans on the same scale.

Thanks for the comparison.  I think they would be fine as long as im consistent.  If 100% of the human infantry are from the same range it would work.  Doesnt matter too much if the elves and dwarfs have different proportions.

[Rodiger]

2 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

I’m not justifying their ****** release model early on for Necromunda, but there’s no justifiable excuse for copyright infringement. If everyone used that PDF instead (for whatever reasons they try to justify it), gw would just kill the game like the last time

Not to get into an online tit for tat, I think Necromunda would be fine off the sales of the gangs, weapon upgrades and the scenery. The rules for the original version are free and people can use the new models etc for that.

Personally I've stopped buying rule books. I have a shelf full of books that are pretty much useless rules wise. Army books are great as a 1 off purchase if you like the Army, the fluff, art, pictures are all wonderful, but the next editons book largely just repeats all this and you only get a few pages of updated stuff, and Army books are expensive compared to books. And that few pages of new content just isn't worth the money for me to buy a new one. Yes you get the rules, but the rules have a life span, they get an FAQ pretty quickly then updated again in a yearly book that you also have to purchase. And after all of that you're lucky if you get more than 2 years out of it. The 40k indexes were great. When I play 40k I just use them, I'd much prefer that model of rules release, but much cheaper. 

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Kirby said:

Thanks for the comparison.  I think they would be fine as long as im consistent.  If 100% of the human infantry are from the same range it would work.  Doesnt matter too much if the elves and dwarfs have different proportions.

Oh yeah, that would be fine. It would even enhance the feeling of puny humans standing firm in a setting that's larger than life. As an aside, Oathmark also has dwarves and elves on the same scale, and using LOTR dwarves and elves would also work (though they are slightly smaller). If you do use things like the Hurricanum and Karl, simply replace wizards with Frostgrave Wizards (1 for male, 2 for female) and put a regular standing commander for Karl. You may need to make some swords/halberd heads (though Perry's War of the Roses already has lots) and shields though.

 For detailing/design of the Frostgrave wizards, here's what's on that sprue (which you get two of for 13€), pleasy pay attention to the different races and ages in the head selection:

 

[zilberfrid]

3 hours ago, Mattrulesok said:

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Steal all you can comrades. 

In other news I bought a giant from mantic for £25 that fits the bill perfectly and saved me £95 🤑

So you supported the designer that didn't overcharge you. Good on you!

There's nothing wrong with making a design that's scaled to work with GW's products.

There's nothing wrong with using a full army of internally consistent designs that are a different scaling from the official models as an AoS army as long as base sizes and height match (they even featured one using LotR stuff and I think Kairic have also been used in Cities).

There's nothing wrong with kitbashing your heroes from infantry because you think hero pricing is a ripoff.

There's nothing wrong with using GW models with a ruleset from a different company (that's how GW started anyway).

There's nothing wrong with just using the free AoS rules instead of buying battletomes.

There's nothing wrong with borrowing a book every once in a while if you want to play.

I just don't like mindlessly copying an entire design or books. That's how invasive DRM is justified.

[Beastmaster]

Just realized yesterday that I have enough stray miniatures from different factions to field four distinctly different Hinterlands warbands. 
Can‘t use basic AoS rules for cheaper. 

[Scurvydog]

10 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Or, gw discontinue an army because nobody is buying their models

I understand the point and it really is a bad spiral when this happens. If an army has a combination of old models, expensive models and/or poor rules, sales will not be good and GW has been prone to put such armies at the wayside rather than go all in to improve the product. 

We are seeing this a lot with seraphon right now, which has good rules right now, but has a good amount of really bad and old sculpts. Kickstarters and alternatives are popping up everywhere due to a demand GW seems to either not care or not being agile enough to meet.

GW releases the giants at crazy prices and what happens? Mierce Miniatures for example does a 50% sale on all their giant-esque miniatures, which are also of very high quality resin (which brings GWs finecast to shame, and even forgeworld).

I am completely on board with actually wanting to stick to GW, I enjoy the sense of place and the factions and don't want a  game that is just bring whatever to count as whatever. If GW releases some new saurus knights I would prefer to buy them from GW, even at higher price than alternatives, but brand loyalty only goes so far, when they clearly are either ripping people of or trying to sell vastly inferior products to premium prices (looking at you Salamanders!).

[Beastmaster]

Wasn’t that impressed by Mierce resin (I’ve got their Walrusmen, and while the minis are nice and detailed, the harpoons were quite bendy and breaky. I broke every one of them at least once while trying to straighten them. Just no fun to work with. Never happened with anything GW). I vastly prefer GW plastic, honestly. But not at all cost.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Beastmaster

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

Just no fun to work with. Never happened with anything GW

Well, you‘ve never had a finecast miniature? It‘s the worst ^^
 

ofc plastic is superior to resin imo

Edited October 8, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Greybeard86]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

I am completely on board with actually wanting to stick to GW, I enjoy the sense of place and the factions and don't want a  game that is just bring whatever to count as whatever. If GW releases some new saurus knights I would prefer to buy them from GW, even at higher price than alternatives, but brand loyalty only goes so far, when they clearly are either ripping people of or trying to sell vastly inferior products to premium prices (looking at you Salamanders!).

This is usually an issue and I feel similarly about it. I do think that, sometimes, 3rd party models do look out place.  Certainly the proportions used by GW make it hard to combine...

But I am willing to sacrifice that aspect so that GW feels the pressure of the competition. It will only be better for us if they do not think they have free reign.

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

There's nothing wrong with using a full army of internally consistent designs that are a different scaling from the official models as an AoS army as long as base sizes and height match (they even featured one using LotR stuff and I think Kairic have also been used in Cities).

I think there is. I’m in it for the experience. I want my opponent to have decently painted models and a table full of painted terrain. 
Besides the obvious playing a nice opponent, having the same intention for the game, COVID proof location etc, which all comes first. 

your army can be perfectly internally balanced in proportions, but if the difference between our armies is too great it does hurt my enjoyment. So imo there is definitly a line that can be crossed there. Luckily most 28mm heroic scale matches eachother well enough. 

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, Kramer said:

I think there is. I’m in it for the experience. I want my opponent to have decently painted models and a table full of painted terrain. 
Besides the obvious playing a nice opponent, having the same intention for the game, COVID proof location etc, which all comes first. 

your army can be perfectly internally balanced in proportions, but if the difference between our armies is too great it does hurt my enjoyment. So imo there is definitly a line that can be crossed there. Luckily most 28mm heroic scale matches eachother well enough. 

Yes, I would say you'd have to use 28mm miniatures, but 28mm human scaled and whatever scale the Kairic acolytes or Excelsior Warpriests are at differ greatly, so I wouldn't use them in the same army. Similarely, metal Longbeards (17mm eye level) and modern dwarves (24mm eye level) are a vastly different scale.

That's on GW, not the player using them.

[novakai]

1 hour ago, Greybeard86 said:

This is usually an issue and I feel similarly about it. I do think that, sometimes, 3rd party models do look out place.  Certainly the proportions used by GW make it hard to combine...

But I am willing to sacrifice that aspect so that GW feels the pressure of the competition. It will only be better for us if they do not think they have free reign.

The problem is that they would only feel pressure if their was a competent competitor in their market and for the most part there isn’t a company that is big enough to do so.

privateer press, mantic, covus belli, all lack the marketing reach too do so. Third party can produce models but not rules, paints, or other accessory that GW can produce

Hasbros is probably the biggest powerhouse company around and surpasses GW in market worth but they don’t compete in the miniature War game market

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

The problem is that they would only feel pressure if their was a competent competitor in their market and for the most part there isn’t a company that is big enough to do so.

privateer press, mantic, covus belli, all lack the marketing reach too do so. Third party can produce models but not rules, paints, or other accessory that GW can produce

Hasbros is probably the biggest powerhouse company around and surpasses GW in market worth but they don’t compete in the miniature War game market

This is definitely a huge factor. Through cult following and sheer luck GW became the big name in wargaming and just kinda overshadow the market to a degree. I know a lot of people in some of my nerd circles for D&D and video games that know what warhammer is but don't know any other wargame aside from maybe warmahordes. A lot of this is due to warhammer as a brand being present in so many mediums these days where other companies either don't have the internal interest to branch out or don't have the capital to justify the risk. It feels like GW is reaching the "too big to fail" point in some peoples minds. 

As much as a corporate nightmare as it would be I do think it would shake up the market if Hasbro was to partner or buy up one of GW's competitors and put their resources behind them to pump out and market plastic kits. I think they tried some sort of wargame/boardgame hybrid toy line before that involved building a board with hexes and using different skirmish style armies but it didn't sell well. 

As a side note Corvus Belli has to be my second favourite miniatures company behind GW but would easily take first if they switched from metal to plastic because they've got great sculpts at way more reasonable prices.

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

The problem is that they would only feel pressure if their was a competent competitor in their market and for the most part there isn’t a company that is big enough to do so.

privateer press, mantic, covus belli, all lack the marketing reach too do so. Third party can produce models but not rules, paints, or other accessory that GW can produce

Hasbros is probably the biggest powerhouse company around and surpasses GW in market worth but they don’t compete in the miniature War game market

I'll add to this and say that, when I've tried to get into other 3rd party games/models, I've found it difficult to start. For example, I've started Malifaux, but this took a long time to do as the lore and sets weren't easy to come by (none sold in any local store) and there was no depository of lore to get a good sense of what each of these models are meant to be. GW has that reach, but also that playing space, books and wikis on lore of minor units, and ease of availability (price notwithstanding). 

GW would need a competitor with a big buy in to do all of that on a large scale. It seems, for 3rd party, building up slowly may not work as it's a social game - if the models and rules are great, but there's only one other person the area that play, then you'll struggle. 

[EccentricCircle]

It is slightly crazy that at least in the UK, there is a Games Workshop store on almost every High Street.

Most other game, hobby, and comic shops with similar audiences are small, independent affairs, they are out of the way, and can be hard to find. The few chains like Forbidden Planet are really only found in the largest cities...

But GW is just there, in so many towns, and you can just walk in and say "I'd like a box of Orcs please!" and they go "Sure! which sort?"

While I understand, on the theoretical level, how they got to be that successful, it still amazes me that they have!

Edited October 8, 2020 by EccentricCircle

[zilberfrid]

30 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'll add to this and say that, when I've tried to get into other 3rd party games/models, I've found it difficult to start. For example, I've started Malifaux, but this took a long time to do as the lore and sets weren't easy to come by (none sold in any local store) and there was no depository of lore to get a good sense of what each of these models are meant to be. GW has that reach, but also that playing space, books and wikis on lore of minor units, and ease of availability (price notwithstanding). 

GW would need a competitor with a big buy in to do all of that on a large scale. It seems, for 3rd party, building up slowly may not work as it's a social game - if the models and rules are great, but there's only one other person the area that play, then you'll struggle. 

If you have friends that are interested in tangential stuff, like RPG's and boardgames, it could be quite doable to just get a rulebook and see whether you like it.

Play with paper for a few games, and then buy models that you like, or expand an existing collection and just go.

I could decide some monster faction and populate half of it with Papo dinosaurs (accurate dinosaurs with good detailing), and half of it with monsters from GW.

Someone else could choose dwarves, and outfit their Arkanauts with a few shields while keeping the rifles.

Yet another someone could go for humans, and go full historical.

There even is a a Lego wargame somewhere.

I have quite a few non-GW tabletop shops close, and they do play a lot of other stuff, but 2020 being 2020, I currently only play at a friend's house.

Edited October 8, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Overread]

What's even more amazing is that GW is STILL on the highstreet and still commands decent locations. They've shifted out of the central regions but are still in the easy to find areas. They are perhaps one of the most successful highstreet names and yet at the same time are a huge niche market. They aren't selling books or cameras; nor cloths or shoes. 

 

Part of it is that GW never took out loans to expand. A lot of the big highstreet names take out big loans as they expand which lets them expand at a very rapid rate. However it also leaves the firm holding huge amounts of debt. What tends to happen over and over again is that the economy at large has a downturn, which results in the brand having a downturn and their income starts to hit their ability to repay the loans. Ontop of that you've still got upper managers who want good pay and rewards. So the company has a high operating cost and when it comes to the loans they can't just downsize it all. It kills many of them.

GW in contrast doesn't have the loans; if they need to downsize to save costs then its 100% all in house. 

[novakai]

from what i can gather, one of GWs strength is logistics and customer service, most FLGS find them very reliable to work with  and getting product  from them in a timely matter (especially preorders).  this is something most other miniature companies struggle to do.

[Kramer]

4 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Yes, I would say you'd have to use 28mm miniatures, but 28mm human scaled and whatever scale the Kairic acolytes or Excelsior Warpriests are at differ greatly, so I wouldn't use them in the same army. Similarely, metal Longbeards (17mm eye level) and modern dwarves (24mm eye level) are a vastly different scale.

That's on GW, not the player using them.

If you stick to the producers of the game. Yes then it’s on GW. If you decide to go off brand it’s on you. 

[zilberfrid]

25 minutes ago, Kramer said:

If you stick to the producers of the game. Yes then it’s on GW. If you decide to go off brand it’s on you. 

Because GW has increased their scale so badly that they are no longer compatible with a unit of the same name from a previous release, the producer of the game forces the choice between tossing the old models or going for another vendor that didn't mess that up so badly.

I kept my Freeguild stuff around because I though people might like to play it, but it just looks bad in comparison because the proportions don't fit with other vendors (and the sculpts don't hold up). Except for some 20 guard that will become fancy orcs with a headswap, I see no reason to keep my infantry and most of my cavalry around.

[Hannibal]

On 10/6/2020 at 3:15 PM, Grim Beasties said:

So this is a continuation of the SoB price conversation that was in the rumor thread. I've been in this for most of my life, but these prices are getting to the point where I just can't anymore. If anyone has any ideas on how to help spend less for models please let me know, I don't want to leave this hobby but at this rate I might not have a choice.

I´ve said it several times and I´ll repeat it here once more:

 

tabletop as a hobby is far from expensive!

 

You talk about Sons of Behemat. In central Europe you´ll pay 600 to 650 Euros for a 2000 points list depending on the army composition. Lets say you need 100 hours to paint that force. Let´s further assume you play that force over the course of a year, every other week. That´s an additional 75 hours at least. You´re now at 175 hours of fun for a max 650 Euros invest, equaling in roughly 3,70 per hour.

 

How can that be named expensive?

 

I can list so many hobbies that cost way more money than tabletop.

[zilberfrid]

3 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

I´ve said it several times and I´ll repeat it here once more:

tabletop as a hobby is far from expensive!

You talk about Sons of Behemat. In central Europe you´ll pay 600 to 650 Euros for a 2000 points list depending on the army composition. Lets say you need 100 hours to paint that force. Let´s further assume you play that force over the course of a year, every other week. That´s an additional 75 hours at least. You´re now at 175 hours of fun for a max 650 Euros invest, equaling in roughly 3,70 per hour.

How can that be named expensive?

I can list so many hobbies that cost way more money than tabletop.

Tabletop wargaming is not an expensive hobby, but tabletop wargaming with models and rulesets from other vendors is massively cheaper.

Whether you can afford it is only tangentially related to whether it's worth it.

Edited October 8, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Joseph Mackay]

4 hours ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

I think they tried some sort of wargame/boardgame hybrid toy line before that involved building a board with hexes and using different skirmish style armies but it didn't sell well. 

Heroscape was doing fine, until Wizards Of The Coast got their hands on it and forced Dungeons And Dragons down everyone’s throat. Everything released after that point was something from D&D rather than the Heroscape universe. It lasted 2 or 3 waves after that and then they canceled it because they wanted to focus on D&D instead. Heroscape had about 10 waves of releases plus expansion boxes (like a castle building set) and exclusives before the D&D takeover, for comparison