Getting Priced Out

[RuneBrush]

I don't think profit margins are something we can actually talk about with any form of authority because we haven't got a clue how much a miniature actually costs.  We can fairly accurately guess the material cost of a miniature, have a rough idea of the capital for manufacture (i.e. the steel mold) but beyond that it becomes a bit more fuzzy.  Sculptors are going to spend time on it, concept artists, painters etc.  That's before we consider marketing (including WHTV, YouTube videos) or any overhead for running things like Warhammer World's free gaming tables.

Please don't read this as me saying that we shouldn't be going "that's quite expensive for a miniature" (I did this with a release the other day), but let's not pretend the manufacturing cost and profit margins we have in our head are anything but us guessing.

[Baron Klatz]

38 minutes ago, Kasper said:

The price of GW products cover a lot of costs though. Salaries to the sculpter, costs for the PC sculting program that is likely licensed, materials (probably the least), costs of the mold, shipping costs of the product, wear and tear on the machines, rent, advertisements, salaries to the dudes doing the articles/advertisements etc. etc. 

You arent just paying for grey plastic. Even if the gross profit is great, the revenue isnt just meant to cover the cost of sales, but also operating expenses etc. Im sure the shareholders/owners would like some profit too. 

Maintenance and replacing the molds is a huge part of it and major expense which is a big difference to cheaper chinese manufacturers who will keep using the broken molds making poorer quality models.

Biggest costs still though is the upkeep for over 500 GW stores around the world (crazy how big they've grown thinking back to when they celebrated their 100th opening  ) and a thing i've seen no one mention in either discussion is that GW are still in the middle of building a second factory. That's a massive undertaking for plastic models to support (and likely built on the shoulders of Gargants ).

2 hours ago, Marcvs said:

if you are calculating at "prices from GW"  a Gargant army costs 510£ (and you get a spare mancrusher)

Interestingly that is the price of large tournament armies. A top Slaanesh one costs just a bit more.

Great article on it (and further helpful for people looking for a budget army ) :

https://ageofminiatures.com/warhammer-army-cost/

2 hours ago, Cordova said:

I think I saw a fan-made skirmish system for Age of Sigmar on here a while ago, too ...

Ooh, are you talking about AoS Hinterlands? That was great and should be noted the creator of it went on to work for GW and made Warcry.

[novakai]

53 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Honestly I dont really understand the whole WYSIWYG debate. What does it matter to me if your Mortek Guard models have spears but you want to play them as having swords? Absolutely no difference to me. It has zero impact on my overall strategy. The only interest to me is if your dude suddenly got a 3" reach weapon instead of the 1" reach weapon he has been modelled with.

I think outside of competitive game problems, people have the WYSIWYG mentality just to be fair to their opponents and to avoid gotcha moments as much possible.

It more prevalent in 40k because of war gear and equipments 
 

[Kasper]

7 minutes ago, novakai said:

I think outside of competitive game problems, people have the WYSIWYG mentality just to be fair to their opponents and to avoid gotcha moments as much possible.

It more prevalent in 40k because of war gear and equipments 
 

I dont play 40k so I dont know about the rules there at all, so it might be different. I just dont see how weapon profiles in AoS are THAT important, especially if you run through your list prior to the game and say "these guys use spears, so they attack in 3 ranks instead of swords where they fight in 2 but with rend 1 attacks" or whatever. It honestly has no impact on my game whatever the loadout on your dudes is, as long as it doesnt give your killer model extra reach, in which case I might place my hero 3" away from my screen instead. 

It just feels like such a flimsy and weird thing to enforce. I think it is much more broken and impactful to the game to use 3D printet non GW models/proxies/heavy conversions. As an example I absolutely love what Vince V is caple of doing, but the infamous CoS army he posted is so converted I would have zero clue what the different models are supposed to be from just looking at it. Meanwhile that is perfectly OK to bring to a tournament, but your dudes must have the swords equipped, otherwise nobody can tell.. Ooookay.   

Edited October 7, 2020 by Kasper

[sandlemad]

30 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I don't think profit margins are something we can actually talk about with any form of authority because we haven't got a clue how much a miniature actually costs.  We can fairly accurately guess the material cost of a miniature, have a rough idea of the capital for manufacture (i.e. the steel mold) but beyond that it becomes a bit more fuzzy.  Sculptors are going to spend time on it, concept artists, painters etc.  That's before we consider marketing (including WHTV, YouTube videos) or any overhead for running things like Warhammer World's free gaming tables.

Please don't read this as me saying that we shouldn't be going "that's quite expensive for a miniature" (I did this with a release the other day), but let's not pretend the manufacturing cost and profit margins we have in our head are anything but us guessing.

On the specifics on manufacturing costs and upkeep and such, yes, but we do know that GW makes a very tidy profit despite all that and has done for a few years now. Their investor statement from only two months ago explicitly said that 2020 has been "the best year in Games Workshop's history, so far", even with covid's disruption. It's when we see stuff like the chart below (credit to N1SB on B&C for his excellent work) showing them doing extremely alright that price increases rankle a bit. They're under no obligation to pass any of this on to the customer of course, they're not our friends and by design they're meant to get as much of their customers' cash as they think they can, but still.

 

I get what you mean about not wanting to speculate into the nitty gritty but equally I think we should be cautious when talking about their retail presence and their studio and their artists as though these are some sort of burden that GW has to endure (or as a noble charitable enterprise, as it was framed in the other thread) rather than part of the reason why they do well. Their retail presence and the size of the studio has varied over the years and prices have only gone in one direction.

Edited October 7, 2020 by sandlemad

[Kirby]

8 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

A kit like the Greatswords is also barely edging out good due to the extra bits lifting a box of Guards, but kits like the Guard and Handgunners are so low quality that they can't stack up. They are way lower quality than sets like the Warlord Landsknecht kits, while being about double the price per model.

How well do the Landsknecht fit with CoS in terms of scale?  Would they look out of place on GW bases?  My CoS SE already make my COS elves look tiny!

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, Kirby said:

How well do the Landsknecht fit with CoS in terms of scale?  Would they look out of place on GW bases?  My CoS SE already make my COS elves look tiny!

The Landsknecht set is a historical one, so it's quite a bit slimmer and better proportioned than the old Empire kits.

It's not the height that's wrong, it's the proportions. I'll make a picture tonight.

[Charleston]

Well, I am playing the game on a budget and made different experiences. To put them in a short summary: New Releases feel more expensive. Althrough Quality got up, I often can´t reason the higher pricing, which is why many brand new factions like idoneth or lumineth are in a point where I can´t reason the expanse for myself. This comes also by the fact, that due to the death of warhammer a load of old stock is around on second market for quite cheap and affordable prices. I already had the opportunity twice to buy out some miniatures from buds who left the hobby.  Also, I play in a local group that is not tied to a lgs or gw store and to be honest, the second market is flourishing. Also Trade deals often are worth it. I was already able to cut half of my necron force for a whole FEC army of comparable size!

Meanwhile I also noticed that there is often that hype and desire to always build and play something new. Nevertheless, this can easily lead to financial exhaustion and also fatigue when you don´t have time to play with all that stuff.

[Popisdead]

That's a natural evolution of the hobby.  Mortgages, and braces for kids are more important than a luxury hobby.  

I haven't spent much to be honest.  Barely anything over the last few.  I painted what i owned and repurposed (Cities of Sigmar looking at you) units put into Legends with conversions.  Generally it's a battle tome which well,. since I'm not playing Space Marines isn't every 9  months.  I really like the guy who runs the local GW and I feel bad I rarely buy anything these days since I know it helps supports him.

If you don't chase the meta, paint what you own, and practice with your army and play for enjoyment over going 5-0 it's a pretty decent hobby to be in all things considered.  

I feel these issues arise from lack of personal control with finances and dislike you're getting older over actual prices.  Pretty cheap hobby compared to say, hot rods, or gambling in Vegas or partying on the weekends.  

[zilberfrid]

@Kirby

Left to right: '90's Bretonnian Archer, Kairic Acolyte, Frostgrave Cultist, Warlord Landsknecht, Greatsword. Tried to get them to the same height.

I'll have to pick a new one and put a guard body next to a Warlord body, the latter are much more human shaped.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by zilberfrid
Better image

[EasyArmy]

14 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

@Kirby

Left to right: '90's Bretonnian Archer, Kairic Acolyte, Frostgrave Cultist, Warlord Landsknecht, Greatsword. Tried to get them to the same height.

I'll have to pick a new one and put a guard body next to a Warlord body, the latter are much more human shaped.

That 90's Bretonnian archer looks really fantastic. What an amazing sculpt to have held up so well for so long.

[zilberfrid]

23 minutes ago, EasyArmy said:

That 90's Bretonnian archer looks really fantastic. What an amazing sculpt to have held up so well for so long.

The archer is a better sculpt than the Handgunners or the Guard.

Added: Archer, Greatsword, Landsknecht, Guard.

Edit added 2nd picture: These should all be humans on the same scale.

Edited October 7, 2020 by zilberfrid

[EasyArmy]

29 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

The archer is a better sculpt than the Handgunners or the Guard.

Added: Archer, Greatsword, Landsknecht, Guard.

Edit added 2nd picture: These should all be humans on the same scale.

I really appreciate the aesthetics of the Warlord Landsknecht. I read in the product description that the box contains metal and plastic - are the arms metal?

As it relates to this thread topic I have felt "priced out" of purchasing most Games Workshop products for a few years now - the last expensive model I purchased was the the Glottkin in 2016 and even at that cost I felt it was pushing my tolerance. 

I'm really enjoying painting and assembling Victrix models these days. Much less expensive and I really enjoy the style of sculpt. Highly recommend.

[zilberfrid]

34 minutes ago, EasyArmy said:

I really appreciate the aesthetics of the Warlord Landsknecht. I read in the product description that the box contains metal and plastic - are the arms metal?

The Missile troops https://store.warlordgames.com/collections/landsknecht/products/landsknecht-missile-troops are all plastic, as are the Pikemen https://store.warlordgames.com/collections/landsknecht/products/landsknechts-pikemen, but other troops are metal.

They are 22 euro per 30 models and because they are human shaped, they are compatible with other historical models (like the perry sets, which are even cheaper per model) as well as the Frostgrave Soldiers 2 and Wizards 2 sets if you want some diversity, as well as Oathmark for goblins, dwarves and elves.

I'd say a Freeguild army of 80 guard, 30 Greatswords (foot knights), 60 handgunners, 20 Pistoleers 2 generals (also Foot Knights) and a few wizards (Frostgrave) would cost about (in pounds) 60+40+20+40+12=172 pounds (with 10 guards, 6 foot knights and 6 wizards to spare). Compared to some 140+82.50+105+80+80+20+25=532.5 if you purchase it from GW. If you add in a few things like Griffins, Hurricanums etc, it evens out more.

And in this list, I do think the historical/frostgrave team has the better sculpts.

Edited October 7, 2020 by zilberfrid

[LoopyZebra]

Just some personal thoughts on this subject:

I found playing skirmish games like WarCry to be more enjoyable and far cheaper than large games of AoS. I still collect and paint AoS miniatures, but I am less likely to purchase the models necessary for a full army. Price is a significant barrier for me to building a 2000 point AoS list. I am not a tournament player but instead prefer games with friends - Warcry is better for that.

Usability in multiple systems has also been a concern for me - one thing I do like about some GW products is that I can use the models for multiple games: AoS, Warcry, Underworlds, Warhammer Quest, Gorechosen, etc. I tend to avoid products that only have one use.

This is a matter of personal opinion, but I think GW miniature sculpts are far better than any competitors. I've bought miniatures from several other manufacturers. They are often far cheaper than GW, but they tend to have less dynamic poses, fewer details, and particularly annoying mold lines or casting issues. I usually pick up CMON board games, who give tons of models with cool designs, but the nature of them being board game pieces often means that the final product is lower quality. Smaller miniature companies also frequently cast in metal and resin, which I do not enjoy working with as I prefer plastic models. I am willing to pay a certain premium for plastic, dynamic, high quality sculpts that GW produces.

I recognized a couple of years ago that I was caught up in the hype process of GW. This is intentionally created - they market their products hard, but then do not have enough stock. This creates a rush to preorder or purchase early, especially for large bundles where there are significant savings over separate purchases. I've found it helpful to making my overall spending lower to step back from the hype and really focus on the projects I want.

Edited October 7, 2020 by LoopyZebra

[Orsino]

4 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I feel these issues arise from lack of personal control with finances and dislike you're getting older over actual prices.  Pretty cheap hobby compared to say, hot rods, or gambling in Vegas or partying on the weekends.  

Expense is all relative isn't it, it's a very expensive hobby compared to hiking or writing poetry. People have different priorities, different incomes, and different ways of hobbying. In my case I'm fortunate to be a slow painter and to enjoy scratch-building terrain which are two things that produce a favourable ratio of time spent to money spent. However if someone says they are disappointed by the price of something I would be inclined to take them at their word, rather than jumping to the conclusion that they lack self-control or are old and bitter, those don't seem like reasonable (or kind) things to assume.

[zilberfrid]

13 minutes ago, LoopyZebra said:

This is a matter of personal opinion, but I think GW miniature sculpts are far better than any competitors. I've bought miniatures from several other manufacturers. They are often far cheaper than GW, but they tend to have less dynamic poses, fewer details, and particularly annoying mold lines or casting issues. I usually pick up CMON board games, who give tons of models with cool designs, but the nature of them being board game pieces often means that the final product is lower quality. Smaller miniature companies also frequently cast in metal and resin, which I do not enjoy working with as I prefer plastic models. I am willing to pay a certain premium for plastic, dynamic, high quality sculpts that GW produces.

I don't know what miniature companies you have tried (and what factions you enjoy), but if you compare what GW makes for Cities, their competitors have them well beat. Guards and handgunners are truly awful compared to what Warlord makes (in the Pike and Shotte plastics that I have), and Greatswords are just on par. Mind you, the Guards and Handgunners sets are about 2.5 times the price of Warlord sets, and the Greatswords about four times the price of the Warlords sets. Moldlines/flash also hasn't been an issue with them (as with other recent Renedra castings). Northstar/Frostgrave do have a bit less detail in the regular soldiers set (than Greatswords), but Wizards are again, on par with GW in detail and better in design (especially for female bodies and faces).

If you pick up boardgames for which miniatures are more of a byproduct, don't compare them with (admittedly) one of the best miniature makers on the market.

This isn't to say that GW doesn't have its strong bits. Necromunda sets have such a slew of bits, and so much character that I don't know of any other company that could make it for that price, the Gutbusters blood bowl team got me four ogres and 10 goblins at quite a low price for their quality, and the Kharadron and Mechanicus designs are really nice.

As for usability, the growing GW designs make them hardly usable in games like D&D except if you use human bodies for Orcs and Goliaths. Neither (as shown above) are AoS humans to scale with other AoS humans. I think that growth is done as much to provide more room for detail, as it is to make them less compatible with other vendors, because quality of them is creeping up

[Joseph Mackay]

14 hours ago, Orsino said:

There is a compendium of all the Necromunda rules as a free PDF online. I won't share it here but a search for "necromunda rules compendium" should find it. 

Which is copyright infringement.

im sorry but if you can’t afford/don’t want to buy the rules then you don’t get to play. It’s that simple.

necromundas release has been badly managed and they keep changing what they’re doing with it, but let’s be real, you only actually need the Rulebook/Dark Uprising and Gangs Of The Underhive (depending on the gang you want). Everything else is optional

[Joseph Mackay]

11 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

GW needs competition, they need those kickstarters we are seeing now to replace model lines they neglect but charge crazy prices for poor finecast products. If people accept 3rd parties in the warhammer hobby, GW will have to work hard to ensure their products are preferred and price is a huge part of that. 

Or, gw discontinue an army because nobody is buying their models

[Orsino]

12 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Which is copyright infringement.

im sorry but if you can’t afford/don’t want to buy the rules then you don’t get to play. It’s that simple.

necromundas release has been badly managed and they keep changing what they’re doing with it, but let’s be real, you only actually need the Rulebook/Dark Uprising and Gangs Of The Underhive (depending on the gang you want). Everything else is optional

I can understand that perspective, I'd generally agree with it, but in the case of necromunda the rules situation was such a clusterf...was such a mess that I feel comfortable with having used the compendium to get started, I don't feel like I'm ****** over GW too badly as it means I've spent a pretty significant sum on models rather than giving up on the game and not spending a penny. You are of course free to find that argument unconvincing.

[Lord Krungharr]

32 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Which is copyright infringement.

im sorry but if you can’t afford/don’t want to buy the rules then you don’t get to play. It’s that simple.

necromundas release has been badly managed and they keep changing what they’re doing with it, but let’s be real, you only actually need the Rulebook/Dark Uprising and Gangs Of The Underhive (depending on the gang you want). Everything else is optional

True, but if all your friends are playing it, and that's how they spend their free time, then one wants to spend free time with their friends and probably playing what they're playing.  Spend what one can, however they can, to play.  

Also random piles of bits are a good cost effective way to assemble interesting armies for cheaper than new.

[zilberfrid]

40 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

True, but if all your friends are playing it, and that's how they spend their free time, then one wants to spend free time with their friends and probably playing what they're playing.  Spend what one can, however they can, to play.  

Also random piles of bits are a good cost effective way to assemble interesting armies for cheaper than new.

If you have friends playing it, house book and models are all you want. Core rulebook is mostly useless and available. You could also possibly just use a bits site for a few bodies and get arms and heads from a friend, or swap sprues if the gang has an extention kit.

If you don't like the pricing/rules/book structure, borrow books or play another game, piracy isn't the moral choice.

Similar with recasting/printing exact copies vs using different models/sculpting them yourself.

Edited October 7, 2020 by zilberfrid

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Or, gw discontinue an army because nobody is buying their models

No one has an onus to buy into a force though. If an army doesn't sell, that's on GW, not their competitors or customers. Tomb Kings infamously didn't sell because they went for multiple editions with poor core models, minimal army book support and glaringly weak rules. GW threw up their hands and discontinued them but that wasn't on the players, the company half-assed it for years and was rewarded with declining sales. You can't trust them to make the right decision, with or without competition.

Also lets not act like GW is helpless here. Look at the Blood of the Phoenix box. Finally GW puts out new plastic aspect warriors but at a serious premium and bundled with older kits. Folks don't buy it because of that. If GW's interpretation of that is "oh well, no point investing in xenos, better release more space marines", then I'm going to be hard pressed to blame competitors or the consumer for what the company does.

[Rodiger]

3 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Which is copyright infringement.

im sorry but if you can’t afford/don’t want to buy the rules then you don’t get to play. It’s that simple.

Then there were suckers like me who bought the base game and all the Gang War books, all were so badly written that as soon as the hardbacks came out they were basically retired as un playable. 

I spent quite a lot on badly written useless rule books, it would have been nice if GW had offered some sort of discount on the hardbacks for people who were stupid enough to buy them and support the game in its early stages. But no, we were expected to buy them again. I refused, that pdf was a lot more usefull than my official rule books were. 

No one made me buy them, but I wanted to play the game and was excited for each as it came out, anf I got stung for it.

I have no issue with people using that pdf. They seemed like the smart ones to me. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Rodiger

[Joseph Mackay]

57 minutes ago, Rodiger said:

Then there were suckers like me who bought the base game and all the Gang War books, all were so badly written that as soon as the hardbacks came out they were basically retired as un playable. 

I spent quite a lot on badly written useless rule books, it would have been nice if GW had offered some sort of discount on the hardbacks for people who were stupid enough to buy them and support the game in its early stages. But no, we were expected to buy them again. I refused, that pdf was a lot more usefull than my official rule books were. 

No one made me buy them, but I wanted to play the game and was excited for each as it came out, anf I got stung for it.

I have no issue with people using that pdf. They seemed like the smart ones to me. 

I’m not justifying their ****** release model early on for Necromunda, but there’s no justifiable excuse for copyright infringement. If everyone used that PDF instead (for whatever reasons they try to justify it), gw would just kill the game like the last time