Getting Priced Out

[Overread]

GW restricts international trade with its trading partners so that prices don't cross boundaries. So most of the UK ones would not be able to ship to the USA by the agreement they have with GW. Which is also why Element don't ship to Canada-  you need Canadian/USA stores to find for discount .

[Grim Beasties]

Darn, only local place sells everything at sticker price, thanks for the help though

[Sabotage!]

I am not financially priced out of the hobby in that I couldn't afford to make an SoB army, but seeing the prices, even if I were interested in playing them, I wouldn't pay that much on principle.

Now everyone has a different perspective on what value is (or each product has a perceived value in other words).  GW's main games have a pretty low preceived value in my eyes. For example I could buy the Warcry starter around the same time last year for 170$ (the new one is likely to cost similar), which by all accounts is a complete game. You get two full warbands, all the terrain you need, the full rulebook, dice/rulers, even wild monster models. All you need are hobby supplies and you can play the game. Or I could buy one SoB model, for 25$ more and do literally nothing with it until I put together a full army of other (or SoB models). To me that is incredibly low value. Compounding this many armies can get nearly 1000 points of models, or enough to play a substantial game in AoS with a similar investment. You could easily buy a SoD start collecting kit and a few other kits and have a 1k point army, same with Stormcast and several of the more elite armies.

Even if you are just a hobbyist and don't play these games, the perceived value is still really low to most people. A start collecting box of something is going to take most people a lot longer to paint than a single large model.

Personally I don't play AoS or 40k any more. I generally don't think they are that great of game, cost a lot of money, and would take up nearly all my hobby time. GW's specialist and boxed game provide much better value to me. I can paint up a Warcry band in a few weeks, an Underworlds band in a weekend and get playing quickly, in games that I personally enjoy more than AoS and 40k (substantially more than 40k).

3rd Party games provide a lot of these same benefits.

I am able to play Warcry, Underworlds, Relicblade, and Blitz Bowl for about the same price as a single army for 40k or AoS. It gives me multiple games to play, multiple types of things to hobby on, and as an added boon a lot of my buddies who are more into board games actually enjoy these games.  200 dollars would get me a new Underworlds Starter, a new faction for Relicblade, a new Warcry warband, and a box of Blood Bowl models which I could turn into a team for me and one for my buddy.  As opposed to a single model for a single game.

I know this is a bit of a wall of text, but in short: Unless you feel that you absolutely must play AoS/40k, I'd suggest looking into GWs smaller games and game by third parties. They provide a lot more value in ability to play games with less investment and give you a more diverse hobbying opportunity.

[Beastmaster]

Just bought 2 Dreadblade harrows and the Thorns of the Briar Queen. A complete Hinterlands Warband of great-looking miniatures for 39€. I’d say that’s ok. 😊

[RuneBrush]

On 10/12/2020 at 5:12 PM, Greybeard86 said:

Notoriously in the case of the ITC organizers, that previously had their own package of missions (for 40k) and now have instead adopted the GW suggestion.

I read that part of that was because GW reached out to some of the ITC organisers and incorporated some of their ideas/concerns into the new version of 40k which removed the requirement to run different variations in certain tournament settings.

 

[Greybeard86]

10 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I read that part of that was because GW reached out to some of the ITC organisers and incorporated some of their ideas/concerns into the new version of 40k which removed the requirement to run different variations in certain tournament settings.

 

I think we discussed enough their incentives regarding tournaments

[Joseph Mackay]

15 hours ago, Overread said:

GW restricts international trade with its trading partners so that prices don't cross boundaries. So most of the UK ones would not be able to ship to the USA by the agreement they have with GW. Which is also why Element don't ship to Canada-  you need Canadian/USA stores to find for discount .

Gw implemented this rule a few years ago now to stop people from buying directly from the UK, because gw are obviously aware that whatever they’re charging in international markets is more than it should be.

now I’ve already mentioned earlier some of the components that go into the New Zealand pricing for gw products. I wasn’t trying to justify their prices as I agree they’re too much, but rather just explaining why comparing UK price against the exchange rate isn’t accurate or a fair representation of gw costs in the international markets

[Fairbanks]

5 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Gw implemented this rule a few years ago now to stop people from buying directly from the UK, because gw are obviously aware that whatever they’re charging in international markets is more than it should be.

now I’ve already mentioned earlier some of the components that go into the New Zealand pricing for gw products. I wasn’t trying to justify their prices as I agree they’re too much, but rather just explaining why comparing UK price against the exchange rate isn’t accurate or a fair representation of gw costs in the international markets

I got a 40% discount (35% after shipping) on a lot of big box items (Morathi, Alarielle, Verminlord, Keeper of Secrets) buying from an eBay account from Poland a week after everyone caught the initial Covid scare.

Counterpoint time though: "Exchange rate isn't a fair/accurate representation" is GW shill and a failure on Brits to understand why the Colonies are pissed with you (again).

Below is a list of prices I found from a White Dwarf for Betrayal at Calth, roughly 5 years ago, and an item from today (Battlezone Manufactorum Vertigus). The price ratio between UK and other countries hasn't changed in 5 years.

Why is that important? Because the exchange rate between the GBP and USD has changed massively in the last 5 years:

(Euro highlighted because Jan 2015 - Sept 2016 was a bubble of sorts and 2020 rates closer match that of 2014)

To compare:

Yes, there are some approximations for the Exchange Rate (which changes daily).

What you'll find when digging through GWPLC's Annuals is that the start of Brexit is the beginning of record profits for GWPLC. In one of the documents you will find that this change is due to an increase in the USD compared to the GBP.

Summary: The US pay a "Brexit Tax" on GW products.

[Mattrulesok]

On that it's worth noting I bought a mantic giant for £25 in the UK and out of curiosity was checking how much it cost back at home (Oz) and the first place I found it was selling it for $45 or roughly £25. So why can a little company like Mantic sell for the same price internationally but GW need to add an extra 50%?

[JackStreicher]

32 minutes ago, Mattrulesok said:

On that it's worth noting I bought a mantic giant for £25 in the UK and out of curiosity was checking how much it cost back at home (Oz) and the first place I found it was selling it for $45 or roughly £25. So why can a little company like Mantic sell for the same price internationally but GW need to add an extra 50%?

Ripping people off of course 🤷🏼‍♂️

[SleeperAgent]

1 hour ago, Mattrulesok said:

On that it's worth noting I bought a mantic giant for £25 in the UK and out of curiosity was checking how much it cost back at home (Oz) and the first place I found it was selling it for $45 or roughly £25. So why can a little company like Mantic sell for the same price internationally but GW need to add an extra 50%?

Because you aren't paying the extra 50% for the mini. You are paying for GW marketing, GW stores, GW payroll, and GW's new factory.

 

There will be a defining moment someday soon. If they open up the UK factory at full staff and production and prices don't go down, it was all a lie. Here's hoping prices go down when they are able to do everything themselves. If the trend continues with price rises, I could see most of their product lines starting to die.

[Overread]

1 hour ago, SleeperAgent said:

Because you aren't paying the extra 50% for the mini. You are paying for GW marketing, GW stores, GW payroll, and GW's new factory.

 

There will be a defining moment someday soon. If they open up the UK factory at full staff and production and prices don't go down, it was all a lie. Here's hoping prices go down when they are able to do everything themselves. If the trend continues with price rises, I could see most of their product lines starting to die.

GW already produces everything (save for endless spells and terrain) in-house. The New Factory isn't to allow them to produce at home, its allowing them to expand their production capacity. They also invested in a new warehousing system and site as well. Which I assume means that with the new factory and warehouse they'd be able to produce at a greater volume for a longer period of time and to produce larger overseas shipments to reduce the chances of overseas sites running out of stock.

So it like as not won't have any impact on prices at all. It wasn't made to allow GW cheaper production (if anything its increased their overheads) its to allow them greater production as a result of them increasing their range significantly and their increasing customerbase. 

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, SleeperAgent said:

If they open up the UK factory at full staff and production and prices don't go down, it was all a lie. Here's hoping prices go down when they are able to do everything themselves.

There is absolutely no way GW is going to reduce prices on their range. Flatline them for a year, maybe, or keep new releases floating around the current price point, possibly. After all they already produce almost everything in-house. There's no reason to think they'll pass whatever savings they're making onto the customer.

I don't think it's exactly a lie though? The idea that recent price increases have been a reluctant thing on the part of GW because they had to pay for a new factory in Nottingham or because there's other externalities, that's more of a speculative GW fan/apologist argument than something the company's ever stated. Only time I can recall any explicit acknowledgement of a reason was when they tied a price rise to the global cost of metals, which sort of led to finecast, and of course the prices never went down again.

[Joseph Mackay]

2 hours ago, sandlemad said:

I don't think it's exactly a lie though? The idea that recent price increases have been a reluctant thing on the part of GW because they had to pay for a new factory in Nottingham or because there's other externalities, that's more of a speculative GW fan/apologist argument than something the company's ever stated. Only time I can recall any explicit acknowledgement of a reason was when they tied a price rise to the global cost of metals, which sort of led to finecast, and of course the prices never went down again.

At the time, they explicitly said that Finecast was cheaper than metal and yet every metal kit redone in finecast immediately went up in price by about 20%. in the case of Middle-earth, they tried to hide this by changing the blister packs from 3 models to 4, and bundling the foot and mounted heroes together so at least it looked like a better deal. That didn’t happen with 40K or fantasy though

[Overread]

Finecast was cheaper, but we've no idea what the back-end working with it was like. Considering how many failed castings made (and continue to make) it into our hands chances are it might have been a slower production process with a higher fail rate. Ergo more man-hours. Another aspect was that it wasn't so much the price of metal that was the issue, it was the fact that the metal prices were both generally rising, but also highly variable; which made it hard for GW to forecast costs because their base material was jumping all around. For a big firm making big orders that means big numbers. 

 

That said I agree, GW made a total mess of Finecast. A cheaper, easier material that was supposed to be better on all fronts; but turned out pretty much worse on all fronts* and came with a significant price rise to the consumer. It was honestly one of GW's baffling decisions. Thankfully its disaster has made GW push plastic casting and now we are in a position where they are able and we are willing to have characters cast in plastic; whereas when fincast launched we'd have been seriously disappointed if all those great metals went to pure plastic, esp characters/leaders. 

 

 

*That said when it does work it does hold great detail. It was just more rubbery/soft and honestly regular resins are better and hold just as much fine detail. 

[Saxon]

3 hours ago, Overread said:

GW already produces everything (save for endless spells and terrain) in-house. The New Factory isn't to allow them to produce at home, its allowing them to expand their production capacity. They also invested in a new warehousing system and site as well. Which I assume means that with the new factory and warehouse they'd be able to produce at a greater volume for a longer period of time and to produce larger overseas shipments to reduce the chances of overseas sites running out of stock.

So it like as not won't have any impact on prices at all. It wasn't made to allow GW cheaper production (if anything its increased their overheads) its to allow them greater production as a result of them increasing their range significantly and their increasing customerbase. 

In Oz we are having major issues with supplies. Most stores have had lets say 20% of their items out of stock for months now. 

Paints seem to be the worst. Dryad Bark almost doesn't exist in Australia at the moment. 

[Sleboda]

9 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

Because you aren't paying the extra 50% for the mini. You are paying for GW marketing, GW stores, GW payroll, and GW's new factory.

 

There will be a defining moment someday soon. If they open up the UK factory at full staff and production and prices don't go down, it was all a lie. Here's hoping prices go down when they are able to do everything themselves. If the trend continues with price rises, I could see most of their product lines starting to die.

Ppl have predicted the doom of GW for, literally, 30+ years. Wrong every single time.

Sure, some customers move on, but there are always more joining, plus many who stay.

 

Thet are not  "ripping off" anyone or anything of the sort. It's capitalism, pure and simple. Buy their stuff or don't.

It's not that complicated.

[Indecisive]

I think people should give a look to what else is available, there is other miniatures stuff out there. If you're feeling not so hot about GW, take a step back and look around and peruse other stuff for a while. See where that takes you.

 

 

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

capitalism, pure and simple

Imo it‘s radical capitalism.

[Saxon]

People getting priced out of frustrated with potato rules should have a crack at Warcry. I've been having a lot of trouble in my local gaming group with WAAC players and rules/mechanics available to newer armies i don't enjoy playing against as well as my general declining enthusiasm for AOS. 

First game last weekend and loved it. Quick, simple, quirky missions. Love the missions, the models and the random generation of terrain and twists. Picked the game up quickly and we got 6 people to play 4 games in a few hours which was also nice. Good change of pace from AOS. 

[Beastmaster]

10 minutes ago, Saxon said:

People getting priced out of frustrated with potato rules should have a crack at Warcry. I've been having a lot of trouble in my local gaming group with WAAC players and rules/mechanics available to newer armies i don't enjoy playing against as well as my general declining enthusiasm for AOS. 

First game last weekend and loved it. Quick, simple, quirky missions. Love the missions, the models and the random generation of terrain and twists. Picked the game up quickly and we got 6 people to play 4 games in a few hours which was also nice. Good change of pace from AOS. 

Looked at the Warcry rules and yes, they are tidy. I just found the warband building a bit too limited for long-time engagement, and I miss the possibility to level up (and injure down) the warband members. Hinterlands (with some houseruling down the road) seems more my alley.

[RuneBrush]

20 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Gw implemented this rule a few years ago now to stop people from buying directly from the UK, because gw are obviously aware that whatever they’re charging in international markets is more than it should be.

The other reason was because third-party suppliers in the US were pointing out that they couldn't compete with UK third-parties.  This also had an environmental impact (it's better to freight a large shipment via sea than individual parcels via air).

7 hours ago, Saxon said:

In Oz we are having major issues with supplies. Most stores have had lets say 20% of their items out of stock for months now. 

Paints seem to be the worst. Dryad Bark almost doesn't exist in Australia at the moment. 

Supply is still an issue wherever you are.  Many places sold through their stock pretty quickly when various countries put lockdown measures in place.  That was compounded by production dropping due to shut factories and many paint manufacturers moving over to bottling up hand sanitiser.  Generally it takes 3 months to ship containers to the other side of the world, so hopefully you should be starting to get stock back in towards the end of this month.

[Kramer]

26 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

Looked at the Warcry rules and yes, they are tidy. I just found the warband building a bit too limited for long-time engagement, and I miss the possibility to level up (and injure down) the warband members. Hinterlands (with some houseruling down the road) seems more my alley.

Hinterlands is great indeed. 
I’m jumping into Warcry in the new box. And I had some of the same concerns. 
the injuries and upgrades are in the champions mode. Or at least they are more pronounced. As I understand it 
what I do love the idea of, that hinterlands lacks, the ‘play your own campaign’ set up. 

[Joseph Mackay]

8 hours ago, Saxon said:

In Oz we are having major issues with supplies. Most stores have had lets say 20% of their items out of stock for months now. 

Paints seem to be the worst. Dryad Bark almost doesn't exist in Australia at the moment. 

Certain new releases are even being delayed here. The last 2 or 3 White Dwarfs were almost a month late, the Space Marine Chaplain on bike is m.i.a and the necron Hexmark destroyer isn’t coming until later November. I don’t understand. Are gw shipping crates full of an individual kit or something? I would have thought that all releases would be shipped together 

[Joseph Mackay]

1 hour ago, Saxon said:

People getting priced out of frustrated with potato rules should have a crack at Warcry. I've been having a lot of trouble in my local gaming group with WAAC players and rules/mechanics available to newer armies i don't enjoy playing against as well as my general declining enthusiasm for AOS. 

First game last weekend and loved it. Quick, simple, quirky missions. Love the missions, the models and the random generation of terrain and twists. Picked the game up quickly and we got 6 people to play 4 games in a few hours which was also nice. Good change of pace from AOS. 

Warcry is a great system. It has some flaws with the randomly generated objectives that can result in a non-game or instant victory for one side but in those cases you can just draw a new card. I think the campaign system is a bit light in regards to gaining xp, upgrades, injuries and fighters dying, but they can always add that later. The instructions for building the terrain was botched in the starter box, in that if you followed the instruction book then the terrain cards were useless.

Where I think Warcry falls apart, is the AoS Warbands. The game was initially announced as just the chaos Warbands, and people complained. I don’t know what actually went down in gw HQ, but in my opinion, the chaos Warbands were all playtested and balanced against each other, but the AoS Warbands feel like they were rushed out to kill the complaints. The AoS Warbands generally have more choices and a lot of things are at a much higher ‘power level’ for their points vs the original chaos Warbands and it feels unfair. The Stormcast shooting models are the worst offenders. I also feel like they could have used Warcry to buff certain models (while paying appropriate points for it) so they actually matched their lore a bit better than they do in regular AoS, but it is what it is. My regular group didn’t get into it because they watched a few of us playing the game and got put off by the apparent imbalance between the chaos Warbands and the AoS ones. My Stormcast friend has no interest in the game because his Stormcast felt op and he didn’t enjoy the experience.

Back on the subject of pricing though, what’s the justification for Warhammer Underworlds Warbands vs regular AoS models. Eg Beastclaw Raiders, Icebrow Hunter (resin) is $73nz whereas the Underworlds warband consisting of an Icebrow Hunter, a Frost Sabre and 3 Gnoblers (all plastic + cards for the game) for $67nz. This kinda proves the whole “price is determined by how many you’d buy” is false because someone might want more than one Icebrow Hunter, but theoretically you’d only want one warband, unless you were buying multiples because they’re better models than the existing resin ones