The value of Alarith Stoneguard...

[Siegfried VII]

Greetings guys and gals!

I've now played 14 games with Lumineth Realmlords so I have at least a good basic grasp of the army and have also done lots of math-hammer..

A unit that didn't catch my eye much was the Stoneguard as initially planned to leave the "moooo" part of the army out, but have warmed up to them when I saw actual mini pics from people who have assembled them rather than the factory ones gw had provided thus far...

The problem is that game-wise I find this unit to be really really bad.. Initially I compared them to wardens. A unit of 10 Alarith vs a unit of 20 Wardens. With 40 more points the wardens exceel in almost every aspect. Their damage against a 4+ save unit is 11,53 versus the 7,78 of the Stoneguard and that is without them having power of hysh. They are a wizard who can cast and dispel and unbind, they have +2 movement, they are double the number of models for objective grabbing with the same number of wounds as Stoneguard, have 3" reach wich is brilliant and get the shinning company rule.

Stoneguard on the other hand has only the -1 rend ignore and the tectonic force (which is not that powerful imo) and that is that. In order for them to reach the damage potential of the wardens you need to feed them 1 command point in each cc phase or for them to be more resillient you need a battalion which adds more points to them and can be situational..

What added assault to injury was when I went ahead and compared them to Liberators.. As most of you know Liberators are a very bad unit and a bane for all stormcast players (I'm one of them too) and endless discussions have been done regarding that fact.

Now if you compare the two units 5 Stoneguard against a 4+ save unit deal 3,89 versus the 2,67 of the Liberators. I find this difference almost inconsequential as it is very low anyways.. Again Stoneguard has the -1 rend ignore which is great but Liberators have the re-roll 1s to saves and the Lay low the Tyrant which all in all is a bit worse. On the other hand Liberators have +1 to movement and are 10pts cheaper and an innate battleline unit.

All things said Stoneguard ARE better than Liberators but only by a small margin.. So I came to the sad conclusion that our "Elite" infantry unit is in reality slightly better Liberators...

This topic is not meant as a rant.. What I'm really looking for is for us to have constructive discussion regarding this unit which may lead us to better utilize this unit (or reject it if that is not possible) and make it work on an acceptable level. Of course one could just field a unit that he/she just thinks is pretty, but this topic is mainly for gaming discussion so I don't take into consideration at the moment the cool factor of them..

Do you agree with my assesment so far, am I wrong and haven't seen a different angle? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter! 🙂 

 

[Yondaime]

57 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Greetings guys and gals!

I've now played 14 games with Lumineth Realmlords so I have at least a good basic grasp of the army and have also done lots of math-hammer..

A unit that didn't catch my eye much was the Stoneguard as initially planned to leave the "moooo" part of the army out, but have warmed up to them when I saw actual mini pics from people who have assembled them rather than the factory ones gw had provided thus far...

The problem is that game-wise I find this unit to be really really bad.. Initially I compared them to wardens. A unit of 10 Alarith vs a unit of 20 Wardens. With 40 more points the wardens exceel in almost every aspect. Their damage against a 4+ save unit is 11,53 versus the 7,78 of the Stoneguard and that is without them having power of hysh. They are a wizard who can cast and dispel and unbind, they have +2 movement, they are double the number of models for objective grabbing with the same number of wounds as Stoneguard, have 3" reach wich is brilliant and get the shinning company rule.

Stoneguard on the other hand has only the -1 rend ignore and the tectonic force (which is not that powerful imo) and that is that. In order for them to reach the damage potential of the wardens you need to feed them 1 command point in each cc phase or for them to be more resillient you need a battalion which adds more points to them and can be situational..

What added assault to injury was when I went ahead and compared them to Liberators.. As most of you know Liberators are a very bad unit and a bane for all stormcast players (I'm one of them too) and endless discussions have been done regarding that fact.

Now if you compare the two units 5 Stoneguard against a 4+ save unit deal 3,89 versus the 2,67 of the Liberators. I find this difference almost inconsequential as it is very low anyways.. Again Stoneguard has the -1 rend ignore which is great but Liberators have the re-roll 1s to saves and the Lay low the Tyrant which all in all is a bit worse. On the other hand Liberators have +1 to movement and are 10pts cheaper and an innate battleline unit.

All things said Stoneguard ARE better than Liberators but only by a small margin.. So I came to the sad conclusion that our "Elite" infantry unit is in reality slightly better Liberators...

This topic is not meant as a rant.. What I'm really looking for is for us to have constructive discussion regarding this unit which may lead us to better utilize this unit (or reject it if that is not possible) and make it work on an acceptable level. Of course one could just field a unit that he/she just thinks is pretty, but this topic is mainly for gaming discussion so I don't take into consideration at the moment the cool factor of them..

Do you agree with my assesment so far, am I wrong and haven't seen a different angle? I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter! 🙂 

 

Did some games, 3 units of 10 Alarith of ymmetrica are almost unkillabe and hold objectives better than any unit thanks to tectonic force

you are looking at 20 wound 3+ with aetherquarz, ignoring rend and reroll if you take the batalion, and 3 attacks at .2 rend if you a stone mage and a cow

They are your anvil, not your hammer, put some archers behind and you are good

 

Stoneguard are the second strongest unit in the tome imho, the first place is for the sentinels

[whispersofblood]

The obvious problem with the faction as a whole is getting to and taking other people's objectives. I don't think going down the Alarith skill tree helps you with this problem. And, it's not even possible to pursue without playing Ymetrica so it's a whole set of choices I'm dubious about.

That being said I've been using SotM and Avalenor together and it's been great. The lack of mobility on Stoneguard was the last straw for me. 

[Siegfried VII]

4 hours ago, Yondaime said:

Did some games, 3 units of 10 Alarith of ymmetrica are almost unkillabe and hold objectives better than any unit thanks to tectonic force

you are looking at 20 wound 3+ with aetherquarz, ignoring rend and reroll if you take the batalion, and 3 attacks at .2 rend if you a stone mage and a cow

They are your anvil, not your hammer, put some archers behind and you are good

 

Stoneguard are the second strongest unit in the tome imho, the first place is for the sentinels

The battalion effect means that your Stonemage must be running behind Stoneguard in order to give them the ability and the +1 attack costs a whole cp for just one combat phase. Also with only 4 movement they lack the speed to get to an objective and play the role of the anvil.. In my opinion their stats are really sub par compared to their cost.. Still I haven't actually used them yet so there some testing to be done for sure but the numbers don't do them justice in my eyes so far...

[Thiagoma]

Yeah, on paper i cant figure out what is the deal with the Alarith.  Lumineth have slow sturdy battleline and a even slower and sturdier elite and i cant figure out what is the unit in the army that actually is suposed to kill stuff.

[OkayestDM]

13 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

The battalion effect means that your Stonemage must be running behind Stoneguard in order to give them the ability and the +1 attack costs a whole cp for just one combat phase. Also with only 4 movement they lack the speed to get to an objective and play the role of the anvil.. In my opinion their stats are really sub par compared to their cost.. Still I haven't actually used them yet so there some testing to be done for sure but the numbers don't do them justice in my eyes so far...

Speed is definitely a big drawback for them, and certainly inhibits their ability to serve as an effective anvil.  Nevertheless, all of their abilities definitely prime them for that role. The speed of Hysh spell can help with moving them into position, but that requires relying on an unbindable buff. I imagine they'll be quite good once folks have gotten a handle on utilizing them properly but, like much of the army, they're a tricky business.

 

On a side note, the +1 to attack command ability might actually be better spent on a mountain cow than on a unit of Stoneguard (definately better than a 5-man unit, probably better than or equal to a 10-man unit.) Especially if the stonemage is close enough to the mountain to keep him fighting at peak efficiency.

[Siegfried VII]

7 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

Yeah, on paper i cant figure out what is the deal with the Alarith.  Lumineth have slow sturdy battleline and a even slower and sturdier elite and i cant figure out what is the unit in the army that actually is suposed to kill stuff.

Wardens do enough damage especially with power of hysh on, but again they are slow, The problem with Stoneguard is that they feel inferior to Wardens in all aspects and need much investment from other sources in order to be helpful while the Wardens are self sufficient..

 

2 minutes ago, OkayestDM said:

On a side note, the +1 to attack command ability might actually be better spent on a mountain cow than on a unit of Stoneguard (definately better than a 5-man unit, probably better than or equal to a 10-man unit.) Especially if the stonemage is close enough to the mountain to keep him fighting at peak efficiency.

The command ability of the Spirit of the Mountain unfortunately applies only to Aelf Alarith units so they can't use them on themselves..

[LuminethMage]

If you put your Warden in Shining formation, the Stonegard isn't slower on average, because you can run them. You can't be flat footed in Shining with them, like it can happen with the Warden. Warden don't negate rend 1/2 either, so you do not need a Battalion for the Stonegard to make them more resilient. They are from the start. You can increase it with the Battalion though. Warden aren't as sturdy as a fully buffed Stonegard, but don't need as much effort to keep everything together, and have more flexibility because they are a spell caster. 

Probably there isn't as much space for them in a non-Ymetrica mixed army, in case you don't build your Alarith combo.

But a lot of armies rely on buffing one unit through the roof for one of two decisive battles. You can do that with the Stonegard, you can't do that with the Warden in the same way.  The Alarith combo also gives you one free CP every round after the first one to use it the signature ability for "free". You don't have that with the Warden either. 

________

@Thiagoma Stonegard also do hit quite hard when fully buffed: 3 attacks with -2 rend and chance of 2 damage or MW on a 6. And they wound on a 3, not 4 as the Warden. And you likely have a Spirit of the Mountain/Avalenor nearby with the possibility of double activation when you play Alarith ... . 

Edited September 28, 2020 by LuminethMage

[Yondaime]

Guys dont forget they cost just 100pts for 10 wounds, they are one of the sturdiest battleline only second to mortek and one of the best objective grabber in the game

 

Try running 3 units of 10 and do some games

[whispersofblood]

38 minutes ago, Yondaime said:

Guys dont forget they cost just 100pts for 10 wounds, they are one of the sturdiest battleline only second to mortek and one of the best objective grabber in the game

 

Try running 3 units of 10 and do some games

Mortek are significantly better than Stonegaurd, but that really doesn't matter. AoS isn't actually about killing units, its about killing enough models. 

[Evantas]

The discussion in this thread seems to point towards: 

1. Wardens are generally better than stoneguard, unless you willing to overpay on a little more resilience or you simply don't have 40 more points to spend.  

2. Stoneguard are better in specific builds that builds around their strengths. Specifically Ymetrica and Temple battalion. Even with the points for the battalion and opportunity costs factored, Stoneguard outperform wardens on the defence. 

[overtninja]

I have been planning on using the 10 I have with a Stonemage as basically a mobile wall - scoot them into position on an objective by running and stand there guarding it, teaching anyone who rolls up how to slam. The Stonemage can roll with them and position herself to sling spells to further hamper anyone trying to take the objective.

I've also considered just bringing 5 and having them be my 'home guard', even without a Stonemage they can tank pretty hard and their movement isn't a problem if I'm using them on the backfield anyway. If I don't bring a Stonemage, I can bring my Dawnriders, who are looking really juicy with their 3 lances and 4 hooves each, with an extra 4 guardian swords, as well as being another caster.

I'd consider the Stoneguard to be a semi-mobile bunker rather than an offensive force unless you're going Ymetrica and you want to RP as The Rock.

[whispersofblood]

12 minutes ago, overtninja said:

I have been planning on using the 10 I have with a Stonemage as basically a mobile wall - scoot them into position on an objective by running and stand there guarding it, teaching anyone who rolls up how to slam. The Stonemage can roll with them and position herself to sling spells to further hamper anyone trying to take the objective.

I've also considered just bringing 5 and having them be my 'home guard', even without a Stonemage they can tank pretty hard and their movement isn't a problem if I'm using them on the backfield anyway. If I don't bring a Stonemage, I can bring my Dawnriders, who are looking really juicy with their 3 lances and 4 hooves each, with an extra 4 guardian swords, as well as being another caster.

I'd consider the Stoneguard to be a semi-mobile bunker rather than an offensive force unless you're going Ymetrica and you want to RP as The Rock.

Has 10" of movement been enough for this role for you?

[Siegfried VII]

2 hours ago, Evantas said:

The discussion in this thread seems to point towards: 

1. Wardens are generally better than stoneguard, unless you willing to overpay on a little more resilience or you simply don't have 40 more points to spend.  

2. Stoneguard are better in specific builds that builds around their strengths. Specifically Ymetrica and Temple battalion. Even with the points for the battalion and opportunity costs factored, Stoneguard outperform wardens on the defence. 

That is true more or less..

Ymetrrica's advantage is more the fact that Stoneguard become battleline rather than the extra-1 rend ignore in my opinion..

The battalion is good but again very restrictive. Unless you take Avalenor it is very easy for the opponent to just snipe the Stonemage and then you lose all advantages. On top of that it is rather invonvenient to try and have the Stoneguard wholly within 12 inches of the heroes.. If it were 18 inches then it would be fine, but with movement, charges and pile ins I believe it limits your strategic options significantly in my opinion..

[Aelfric]

I haven't played any games yet, but I am aiming for Iliatha, so I am considering making my Stonemage the General and giving them the "Enduring" Command Trait to put them on 8 wounds.  If they also have the named artifact, then they have a 50/50 chance of being a 16 wound hero.  That way, they could hang around a bit with 10 or 15 Stoneguard at the front line.  I may also try out the Sanctum, eventually for even more survivability.

Iliatha may not be the strongest Nation, but I like the 2 abilities you get.  CP is hard to come by and if I can avoid using them for battleshock and affect two units each time I do use one, then that seems quite good to me.  

Also, has anyone tried out the Rune of Petrification yet ? 

[overtninja]

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Has 10" of movement been enough for this role for you?

I have yet to play (or even unpack) my new Lumineth, but just going by their limited movement and inherent durability I'm inclined to use them as a backfield protector role that won't die to deep-strikes, and as a personal guard to my Stonemage, who is going to be ruining my enemy's movement or bravery all the time.

If I really need to rapidly redeploy a unit of Stoneguard for some reason, Speed of Light +run should do it. If it doesn't, then I'm far enough outside position that I'm probably in serious trouble anyway. 😛

[Chumphammer]

Thing about Stoneguard is the synergies. Alone, yeah they are alright and the Wardens maybe better, but as a center line grinder combined with other things they are really solid.

I had 2 x 10 (One each weapon type but future will just be picks) with Avelanor, Stonemage and Cathaller. It made a core the enemy couldnt break (Blades of Khorne)

Stoneguard get a -1 to hit against them to all enermy within 12 of the Avelanor, as well as an additional attack from his command ability.

They are immune to rend 1 (2 if faction) and have a 4+ AS (3+ if Quartz uesed) which is rerollable due to Battalion (if in 12 of Stonemage)

Stonemage gives them Rend 2

Cathaller with protection of Hysh up gives them a 5++

This can make them pretty tanky and have 3 rend 2 attacks each doing MW  on 6 to hit. 

 

[Siegfried VII]

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

I haven't played any games yet, but I am aiming for Iliatha, so I am considering making my Stonemage the General and giving them the "Enduring" Command Trait to put them on 8 wounds.  If they also have the named artifact, then they have a 50/50 chance of being a 16 wound hero.  That way, they could hang around a bit with 10 or 15 Stoneguard at the front line.  I may also try out the Sanctum, eventually for even more survivability.

Iliatha may not be the strongest Nation, but I like the 2 abilities you get.  CP is hard to come by and if I can avoid using them for battleshock and affect two units each time I do use one, then that seems quite good to me.  

Also, has anyone tried out the Rune of Petrification yet ? 

The sanctum doesn't help with mortal wounds so I wouldn't recommend it , but the 8 wound deal sounds like a good idea!! 🙂 

The Rune while very nice especially on a double turn as there is the potential to score 4 times d3 mortal wounds on enemy units within range, I find it a bit on the expensive side.. I may give it a try though..

[Aelfric]

50 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

The sanctum doesn't help with mortal wounds so I wouldn't recommend it , but the 8 wound deal sounds like a good idea!! 🙂 

The Rune while very nice especially on a double turn as there is the potential to score 4 times d3 mortal wounds on enemy units within range, I find it a bit on the expensive side.. I may give it a try though..

Trying to fit any of the Endless Spells in a list is hard enough, I find.  They seem to be things you add at the end when you don't have enough points to fit in anything else.  If I find I have 70 odd points left, it seems to make sense to either add the two 30 point ones or the Rune.  I suppose the alternative is a CP, but the spells do bring something to the table and they have a blocking function simply as models.

There is no answer to mortal wounds in the Alarith part of the army.  Hopefully, the Sentinels can eliminate the enemy MW dealers before they can do too much damage.  I think 2 units of 20 will become a staple.

[Skreech Verminking]

8 hours ago, overtninja said:

have been planning on using the 10 I have with a Stonemage as basically a mobile wall - scoot them into position on an objective by running and stand there guarding it, teaching anyone who rolls up how to slam

Just hope your not going to face my 340Clanrats in battle 😝

Edited September 29, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Aelfric]

20 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Just hope your not going to face my 340Clanrats in battle 😝

If you're going to slam 340 Clanrats into 10 Stoneguard, I wouldn't mind at all  .

[Gecktron]

I have tried the Stoneguard a few times and they only ever felt kinda worth it in a Ymetrica Alarith battalion. They are still very vulnerable to mortal wounds, but the extra resilience against normal attacks somewhat makes up for it.  Running them close to a mountain spirit and a mountain mage feels absolutely necessary. The 1" weapon range prevents them from really dishing out any damage. I had the most success when I had them tank some chaff while the Spirit clears the objective from the more dangerous units. 

So far, my core has been this: 
Avalenor, the Stoneheart King (360)
Alarith Stonemage (130)
10 x Alarith Stoneguard (200)
Battalions
Alarith Temple (120)

Total: 810 / 2000

Depending on the game size I add some more stoneguard but some sentinels, wardens and dawnriders feel absolutely necessary. 
 

[LuminethMage]

7 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Trying to fit any of the Endless Spells in a list is hard enough, I find.  They seem to be things you add at the end when you don't have enough points to fit in anything else.  If I find I have 70 odd points left, it seems to make sense to either add the two 30 point ones or the Rune.  I suppose the alternative is a CP, but the spells do bring something to the table and they have a blocking function simply as models.

There is no answer to mortal wounds in the Alarith part of the army.  Hopefully, the Sentinels can eliminate the enemy MW dealers before they can do too much damage.  I think 2 units of 20 will become a staple.

If you have Seninels, you can give one or two Protection of Hysh and try to get it off with an Aetherquartz for example (either as a second cast or to make sure it really goes off). Of course that won’t be for the whole game, but one or two rounds with that alone can be decisive. 

Anyone interested in how a Ymetrica plus Teclis build could work (somewhat), check this out. It also shows how tanky fully buffed Stoneguard are.

Of course it’s just a game, dice luck etc.