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Gorthor21

Being musician and standard bearer

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I am look at buying a box of chaos knights and it popped in my head.  Can one model be both the standard bearer and musician at the same time?  
The chaos knight box comes with the parts to do this and I haven’t seen any rules that would state it to be otherwise.  What are your ideas?

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Rules for musicians and standard bearers tend to be a bit confusing, and they differ according to different warscrolls.
Chaos knights' warscroll says that 1 model (every 5) can be standard bearer and 1 model (every 5) can be musician: so, IMO, the model can't be the same.

Never seen anything like this, in fact it would be kind of weird... Core rules say that "Command models must be represented by appropriate Citadel Miniatures if they are included in a unit", and it would be logical for me to see 1 model for each role.

Keep in mind that old kits contains a lot of extra bits...

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The way it is worded it sounds like it can be the same model to me.  I understand that it’s implied they should be different models but the wording is similar to the original warscroll for liberators that says one in five can take the special weapon options so the prime could be equipped with it.   I know they updated it with later iterations of the warscroll.

im not trying to pull a fast one on anyone and there isn’t any real benefit as the model can be removed and you loose the benefits of both options. I thought it would make the unit look cooler if there were more lances instead of the horn and standard taking up so much space in the front rank.

i know it’s a carry over from wfb with the command groups being specified in the core rules and this has only carried over with the older kits.

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No as @Fulcanelli said. The appropriate citadel miniatures can be assembled as either a Chaos Knight, Doom Knight, Icon Bearer or Hornblower according to the kits description. There are no models available for an ‘Icon Hornblower’ although I do concede such a model could be invented and easily kit bashed.

Does this question need to be FAQ’ed? Maybe, is a fair question.

P.S. This is a good one for the rules questions section of the forum.

Edited by Greyshadow
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So one argument for it must be appropriate citadel miniatures which can be interpreted as must be assembled  as per instructions as the second argument posits Or that they simply have to be citadel manufactured products which they would be.

i understand why it would make sense to follow conventional thought  I just always hated the Hornblower on the chaos knights even back when they were multipart metal sets.  Why couldn’t it just be in his left instead of a shield.  
rules debates aside I might as well convert the thing to his left hand.

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This is one of those annoying areas that GW really needs to clean up and has been messy ever since they did away with Old World (where it was very clear how it worked). 

 

Some warscrolls do suggest that the same model can be both or at least do not suggest that such cannot be done. Heck go back to AoS at launch/1.0 and there wasn't even a limit on how many musicians or standard beareryou could have. In theory every model could be both at the same time except for the 1 leader model. 

In the vast majority of cases players expect both to be separate and distinct roles within the unit. Even if its not spelled out on the warscroll its how most interpret it and how most would expect GW to rule on/change with FAQ/Errata/new editions. 

 

 

Personally I am also not a fan of the whole "1 in every X" approach either. I don't think having 3 standard bearers in  15 model unit looks good. It looks, for most units, daft. Yes the rules allow it, but personally I stick to "1 per unit". for those specialist roles for musicians and standards. Special weapons I'm more open too because having more specialists with a different weapon doesn't look visually jarring. This is my personal view though, not cannon nor rules at present. 

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I wasn't suggesting we have to assemble our models as per the instructions just that there isn't an appropriate citadel miniature for an Icon Bearer Hornblower hybrid. I have Chaos Knights coming up in my painting queue soon. I don't mind he Hornblower model but you could convert it so the horn is strapped over the shoulder or attached to the saddlery or something like that

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I was thinking of converting him so that he is holding the horn in his left hand instead.  Having built them do you think this would be difficult?

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In a technical RAW sense you can. However the RAI is very, very clear in addition to the benefit being minimal. Should GW clarify the rules in the future to make it such that music and standard must indeed be different you will be stuck with a unit that now lacks one of them. Finally, it is something many would consider bad sportsmanship, though obviously this can vary with the community.

I would recommend against it.

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18 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

In a technical RAW sense you can. However the RAI is very, very clear in addition to the benefit being minimal. Should GW clarify the rules in the future to make it such that music and standard must indeed be different you will be stuck with a unit that now lacks one of them. Finally, it is something many would consider bad sportsmanship, though obviously this can vary with the community.

I would recommend against it.


If you don’t mind me asking, how is it bad sportsmanship?

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7 hours ago, Overread said:

This is one of those annoying areas that GW really needs to clean up and has been messy ever since they did away with Old World (where it was very clear how it worked). 

 

Some warscrolls do suggest that the same model can be both or at least do not suggest that such cannot be done. Heck go back to AoS at launch/1.0 and there wasn't even a limit on how many musicians or standard beareryou could have. In theory every model could be both at the same time except for the 1 leader model. 

In the vast majority of cases players expect both to be separate and distinct roles within the unit. Even if its not spelled out on the warscroll its how most interpret it and how most would expect GW to rule on/change with FAQ/Errata/new editions. 

 

 

Personally I am also not a fan of the whole "1 in every X" approach either. I don't think having 3 standard bearers in  15 model unit looks good. It looks, for most units, daft. Yes the rules allow it, but personally I stick to "1 per unit". for those specialist roles for musicians and standards. Special weapons I'm more open too because having more specialists with a different weapon doesn't look visually jarring. This is my personal view though, not cannon nor rules at present. 

It looks good in big blobs like Grots or Skavens, but in Ogors, Ardboyz they look like a rave.

I hate the "special weapon in the leader of the unit because the rules don't say anything..." For my, a Moonclan Stabba Boss with a net or a Stormcast leader with a huge hammer looks awful and antiaesthetic.

Edited by Nezzhil

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In case of Standardbearers and Musicians, you could say that " appropriate citadel miniatures" means, that they have to be build like in the guide, but it could also simply mean "If you have a Bannerbearer that guy should have a banner, or a Misician should have a Drum, Horn or some other sort of Instrument on its model.

You could think to put both on the same model (maybe as well as a special weapon), but there are a view points to think about (some from a gaming point some from a lore point:

  1. With the exception of the equipment the regular models have anything should be seen on the model if it is special (putting all on one model could mean that the model looks overloaded)
  2. You will lose multiple abilities at once when the model is slain (and there are abilities where the attacker can pick specific models.
  3. In the lore sometimes the banner is raised at the same time as for example the Horn is blown or Musician has to play a drumbeat with the Order of the units leader. Will the model be able to do all of this at the same time (+ maybe defending himself against enemies) if he has Banner and Instrument
  4. We do not know what GW is planning. Maybe rules will be more specific in the future or Musicians and Standardbearers get their own Weapon Profile (we allready have this in case of the Alarith Stoneguard because their Standardbearer doesn't use the two Handed weapon the other models in the unit use. So it is safer when specific models have the role instead of putting everything on one model.

 

12 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

I hate the "special weapon in the leader of the unit because the rules don't say anything..." For my, a Moonclan Stabba Boss with a net or a Stormcast leader with a huge hammer looks awful and antiaesthetic.

In case of the Boss I would not deny it completely. I mean, I could make sense to have 1-2 Unit Champion with a Special Weapon (A Liberator Prime with a Greatsword because he was using a two handed sword in his mortal life). It's only getting wierd when basicly all champions have a special weapon, because the stats are better thanks to +1 Attack of the Champion.

GW had partly made changes in the last years so that some times the champion only gets a bonus on specific weapons, or has access to weapons that the rest of the unit doesn't

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Anyway, despite I really love banners, I agree that sometimes musicians are unpleasant to the eye, especially in a minimal size unit (e.g. 5 models)... 
So, as suggested by @Greyshadow, at times I simply glue a trumpet on the back or at the belt of the model.

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Trying to draw this back to the original question (does feel like it's gone off at a bit of a tangent).

image.png.8ba75a6d0f2332afbe8c6036f27ce3ab.png

My own interpretation is that you are upgrading the model.  It doesn't say that 1 in 5 may be given a horn or standard, instead it's an assigned "role".

As an aside, I'd always suggest having "upgrades" on separate models as this future-proofs you against any warscroll changes.  As an example the Leader of a unit of Blood Warriors (+1 attack) used to be able to be given a Gorecleaver.  That got removed in the last version of the warscroll and the Leader and Special Weapon had to be separate miniatures.

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I haven’t assembled the Knights yet but I was planning on using my classic knights rather than buying the new Start Collecting ones. I would suspect swapping the hand the horn was held in would be pretty straightforward with the classic knights but could be a bit more difficult with the new ones @Gorthor21.

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3 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

As an aside, I'd always suggest having "upgrades" on separate models as this future-proofs you against any warscroll changes.  As an example the Leader of a unit of Blood Warriors (+1 attack) used to be able to be given a Gorecleaver.  That got removed in the last version of the warscroll and the Leader and Special Weapon had to be separate miniatures.

It wasn't removed that the Chaos Chapion of the Blood Warriors could have a Gorecleaver but it was removed that he get's an additional attack on the Gorecleaver (so he has no advantage when having one).

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11 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

It wasn't removed that the Chaos Chapion of the Blood Warriors could have a Gorecleaver but it was removed that he get's an additional attack on the Gorecleaver (so he has no advantage when having one).

Stand corrected!  Still shows that future warscroll changes can invalidate modelling options

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12 minutes ago, Greyshadow said:

I haven’t assembled the Knights yet but I was planning on using my classic knights rather than buying the new Start Collecting ones. I would suspect swapping the hand the horn was held in would be pretty straightforward with the classic knights but could be a bit more difficult with the new ones @Gorthor21.

Oh I figured you had from what you said. I like the new ones but the older plastics have that nice 10 man unit for what I feel they will charge for five in the future.  
The skullcrushers come with a left handed horn that looks better to be frank.  If I have one in my cavernous bits box then I can just file the Khorne rules off of if need be.  
I posted this to the rules board but it hasn’t had nearly as many useful replies as this thread.

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11 hours ago, Gorthor21 said:
12 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

In a technical RAW sense you can. However the RAI is very, very clear in addition to the benefit being minimal. Should GW clarify the rules in the future to make it such that music and standard must indeed be different you will be stuck with a unit that now lacks one of them. Finally, it is something many would consider bad sportsmanship, though obviously this can vary with the community.

I would recommend against it.


If you don’t mind me asking, how is it bad sportsmanship?

I most certainly can't speak for NinthMusketeer.  I can speak for myself that making the standard bearer and musician the model does feel like it is gaming the system. It feels that it was very rare to never any real historical army on Earth to have their banners bearers and musicians being one in the same. I could be wrong on that though.  It definitely doesn't feel like model kit ever intended it.  So it very much feels like someone attempting this is doing it for some sort of advantage in game.  Even if that advantage is ease of just position one model instead of two.

Now you can say, 'but there are abilities that can target a specific model making it the double dipping have a drawback.' However, let's be real.  That is very unlikely to happen in that the Champion or any weak link that causes coherency loss is far more a target.  There's a good chance some model standing a particular spot is going to be a better target.  And that's assuming your opponent is even bothering using such an ability on your Warriors/Knights.

So if it isn't that important, why worry about it?  Because AoS is a miniatures game which heavily implies aesthetics are important.  I am having a hard time picturing a musician/standard bearer model not looking like a confused mess even if it was well converted.  So again it comes back to me thinking that a player wanting to do such a thing isn't being exactly sporting and trying to leverage an advantage however small.  I personally don't find myself that interested in a game with someone willing to leverage such things in the gaps and margins of the game.  They seem like a pill and going to the DMV/Dentist seems like a more fun use of my time.  Maybe that isn't the case, but I don't really fancy spend 2-3 hours to find out.

In contrast,  I have a standard bearer for every 10 of my 40 Warriors.  When I field 15 Warriors I leave the 2nd one out.  When I field all 40 in groups of 20 I don't really have a choice in the matter.  At the same time, I made sure my opponent was aware which standard was the one with rules attached and which one was decorative.  Which really doesn't matter as I run my S2D army as Chaos Undivided with plenty of heroes to maintain auras.  So I rarely even roll Bravery tests anyways.  Just like the way weapon choices are written, I don't believe that the designers intend what they wrote in these particular cases.  I certainly don't want to take advantage of poor wording nor have a very confused looking model if and when it gets changed.

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12 hours ago, Gorthor21 said:


If you don’t mind me asking, how is it bad sportsmanship?

The only way I can think of is if the model becomes the last model from the unit left, at which point you are still retaining the abilities of both Banner and musician.  If a unit has two Banner options (such as Ardboyz), you could technically have one model carrying two Banners and playing an instrument - a feat best left to Chaos, I think.

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I didn’t mean to offend anyone asking how it’s unsportsmanlike.  I Thought it was such a minor thing that it wouldn’t really give much of an advantage at all.  If it was the last guy I doubt the +1 to bravery or run and charge rolls would be that big a deal as he would probably run from battleshock anyway.  I didn’t know it would be a thing that would make people not want to play the game with me.

 

i have resolved to either convert it or use the horn from the bloodcrushers set anyway so I guess I won’t be a bad opponent to play against.

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I think it is a fair question @Gorthor21 and you have been wholly polite. I have just made my own scroll using Warscroll Designer for Freeguild Archers because I think they should have the Cities of Sigmar and Freeguild keywords. I added a rule to my scroll that the permission of my opponent is required to field this unofficial update. In friendly games you could ask your opponent if they mind an Iconbearing musician, if you were playing me I’d say no worries.

When you ask these questions most people are answering with a matched play/tournament mindset. I think solving your problem with a conversion is the way to go though. Make sure you post a picture when you have finished your model.

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Just have them as separate models. 
its a throwback  to fantasy battle where the command group was three models, a champion, musician and standard bearer.

the different weapon was do you knew straight  away and without argument who he was.

we don't have a battle standard bearer anymore in AoS so the standard  bearer is the only chance we get do create something cool.

if you make them one dude you run the risk of a guy with a drum on his back operated by ropes on his feet while trying to walk forward holding up a pole with a bit if washing on it.

 

also if they are both one dude, when he dies both benefits are gone.

Edited by Kaleb Daark

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1 hour ago, Kaleb Daark said:

if you make them one dude you run the risk of a guy with a drum on his back operated by ropes on his feet while trying to walk forward holding up a pole with a bit if washing on it.

 

giphy.gif

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I don't get the fuzz.

The rule says: 1 in every 5 models.

That's it. Not even specifying which model, just that you chose 1 out of 5

What you guys write in here, is pure fantasy and opinions but we play the rules as written and not how we want it to be.

You could even have the unit champion have the banner and the horn. No idea where the problem is.

Edited by Kurrilino

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