Jump to content

Starting BoC - an anti-magic / lumineth list


Kirby

Recommended Posts

Hey,

I’ve been thinking about picking up a small anti magic list that will mainly play against Lumineth. I’d like to start at 1000pts.  As you may know LRL are all about magic. Also, their Scinari Callathar has a nasty trick whereby she can throw LRL loses back at you during the battleshock phase.

Things I learned today:

Cygors eat Lumineth for Breakfast. Cygors can attempt to unbind two spells, and the caster receives 1mw if the unbind is successful.  Meanwhile, the leader of the LRL battleunits are wizards with 1 wound if their unit has 5+ models.  So, a successful unbind will in fact kill the unit leader, remove a special ability or attack, and reduce the units MW output by half.  Sounds good so far.  
 

Phantasmagoria is a needlessly difficult word to spell.
All units from this battalion can attempt one unbind if <9” from the caster.   Units gain the Tzeentch keyword and can be used in either army.
 

ORGANISATION
A Phantasmagoria of Fate consists of the following units:
 •  1-4 BEASTS OF CHAOS HEROES in any combination
 •  3-9 units chosen in any combination from the following list: Bestigors, Gors, Tzaangors, Ungors, Ungor Raiders
 •  0-9 following list: Bullgors, Centigors, Dragon Ogors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Tzaangor Skyfires, Tuskgor Chariots
 •  0-2 Cygors or Ghorgons in any combination


Brayherd can alpha strike. And Warherd and Thunderscorn too!!!

Breyherd Ambush battle trait allows 1 in 2 Breyherd units to deploy <= 6” of an edge, and >9” from the enemy at the end of the first movement phase.

Bestial Cunning command trait allows 50% of units in reserve to wait until their second movement phase.


Darkwalkers have got the moves.

Shadow Beasts ability from the  Darkwalkers  sub faction offers same functionality as Bestial Cunning, AND Warherd and Thunderscorn gain Ambush ability.

Savage Encirclement cmd ability allows player to remove a unit that is <9” from enemy at the end of a movement turn.  They may redeploy anywhere that is >9” from the enemy.


What I’d like to build:

Two start collecting boxes and a herdstone gives me a one drop army.

Quote

Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos
- Greatfray: Darkwalkers

Leaders
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
- General

Battleline
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
10 x Ungor Raiders (80)

Behemoths
Cygor (140)
Ghorgon (160)

Battalions
Phantasmagoria of Fate (180)

Total: 960 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 73
 

 

What I’d like to do:

  • Maintain minimal size units to maximize ambush and minimize effects of battleshock
  • Take the first turn due to 1 drop.
  • Discourage Lumineth battleline wizards with a deep strike cygor, and a deep strike ghorgan’s Swallow Them Whole ability (remove a model that is <1” after combat phase if roll equal or higher than their wnds - that’s a 1+ for wardens and sentinels, 2+ for dawnriders).
  • Flatten the LRL Scinari Callathar in one go with a lucky shot from a cygor boulder. Cause otherwise she will seize upon low bravery.
  • Deploy one unit of bestigors near the herdstone to avoid battleshock if things don’t goto plan in turn 1.
  • use 2nd unit of bestigors to deep strike any LRL Sentinels that are away from the main deployment area. Then, if any survive teleport them back with Savage Encirclement.

 

It all seems too easy! Well... probably not.  What am I missing here?  Is this possible?  How could I build upon this first 1000pts
 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
On 9/1/2020 at 3:36 PM, Kirby said:

 

 

What I’d like to do:

  • Maintain minimal size units to maximize ambush and minimize effects of battleshock
  • Take the first turn due to 1 drop.
  • Discourage Lumineth battleline wizards with a deep strike cygor, and a deep strike ghorgan’s Swallow Them Whole ability (remove a model that is <1” after combat phase if roll equal or higher than their wnds - that’s a 1+ for wardens and sentinels, 2+ for dawnriders).
  • Flatten the LRL Scinari Callathar in one go with a lucky shot from a cygor boulder. Cause otherwise she will seize upon low bravery.
  • Deploy one unit of bestigors near the herdstone to avoid battleshock if things don’t goto plan in turn 1.
  • use 2nd unit of bestigors to deep strike any LRL Sentinels that are away from the main deployment area. Then, if any survive teleport them back with Savage Encirclement.

 

It all seems too easy! Well... probably not.  What am I missing here?  Is this possible?  How could I build upon this first 1000pts
 

There's some really smart ideas in here - I've not thought of Cygors being a hard Lumineth counter, but you're right! Us cloven ones are always lamenting the lackluster Cygor rules, but this looks like a place where they can finally make their mark! As someone who is fanatically devoted to the herd's ruination of Elves, I'm happy to impart some additional bestial cunning your way.

Making a one drop army and using the darkwalkers great fray is an incredibly powerful move. Dominating the movement phase is the way to win with BoC. However, your list might not be able to fully benefit from darkwalker movement shenanigans. The command ability can only be used by units within 18" of a darkwalkers hero. Your list only has the one hero (the GBS), and against a lumineth list it's probably not going to be very effective. At 5 wounds with a 5+ save, you can bet your life savings that any half competent opponent will turn it into a cloven pin cushion turn one or two.

Taking only one GBS means you arn't capitalising on the herdstone's summoning mechanic. In a 1k game, summoning extra units is incredibly powerful.  Leave a hero to camp at your herdstone to generate primordial call points (most players put 10 ungors there too to be sacrificed). With a list that's already highly mobile,  bringing on extra units from the board edges to support your deployment will win you games.  Being able to summon screens, objective grabbers, ranged attacks and pinning units is where the real mastery of the Beastmen is developed. You have access to some of the best chaff units in the game - for free. It can't be stressed enough that playing chaff units effectively is the key to BoC. 

The other thing your list isn't capitalising on is one of the best abilities in the BoC book.  The Bray Shaman's 'Infuse with Bestial Vigour' adds 3" to brayherd units within 12". This should be utilised by running a Bray Shaman with one of your Brayherd units to effectively make them cavalry. The darkwalker command trait grants an additional +1 to run rolls, so if you pair up a bray shaman general with your Bestigors they get a 9" move with +2 to run with a charge on top. Bestigors do an additional attack on the charge to boot. A nice little tactic is to run your Bray Shaman with your Bestigors for the movement buff, get them into charge range, and then use 'Savage Encirclement' on the Bray Shaman to get them off the table and away from the fighting. However, that does mean that your bray shaman won't be able to cast next turn, or use their movement buff, so if you're going to do it, make sure you can do without them next turn.

To conclude the last 3 paragraphs - take two bray shamans. You should have two if you get two boxes.

I love the idea of taking the Ghorgon to eat unit champs, but unfortunately like many other Beastmen players this will probably set you up for disappointment.  The Ghorgon's move characteristic starts at 8" and degrades pretty quickly as it only has a 5+ save. This means that against a ranged army, it's likely to become incredibly slow on turn one or two. By the time Ghorgons get into combat, they're usually not very effective. Taking the Darkwalkers greatfray and ambushing them is one way to get around this, but then you're often relying on making a 9" charge. It's great if it goes off, but usually it doesn't. Even if they do get into combat, that 5+ save usually means they take a pasting from whatever they go into. If you ambush a Ghorgon from the board edge behind something squishy, the most likely scenario is that you'll fail the charge and the squishies will run off next turn. If it's something a bit tougher, your opponent is likely to stand their ground. Ghorgons can smash units to pieces if you roll well, but they arn't very reliable. They're a fiddly glass hammer unit that takes some micro management to get working in your favour. It's a riot when it works, but in my experience, taking another unit of 10 Bestigors for 20 points less is always the better investment (more reliable killing power, movement and objective capturing).

As you've said you want to do this with start collecting boxes, I'm not going to be 'that guy' and recommend you spent the best part of £100 on top of your initial investment. If you want to/are rich enough to do that then I've got a ton of decent purchase suggestions for you, but in the real world, money is actually a thing. I love your idea of building an 'anti lumineth' army with 2 boxes though, so here's how I'd change your list to fit with the initial idea. Drop the Ghorgon and extra command point to take 2 Cygors and 2 Bray Shamans. I think I've justified the second Bray Shaman, but justifying the second Cygor will take a bit of explaining.

You've read the 'Soul Eater' ability of the Cygor, but the second ability deserves a mention here. 'Ghostsight' gives you re-rolls to hit against wizards. As I understand it, the entire Lumineth army are wizards. In a match up against Lumineth, the Cygor is even more terrifying then you first mentioned - they get re-rolls to hit army wide. Those D6 damage boulders are usually pants because of the 4+ to hit, but against lumineth they're killer! This re-roll also applies to melee, so if they want to engage the Cygors head on, they're still a pretty scary prospect. Against almost any other army, the Cygor just isn't worth taking, but against Lumineth, they'll 'eat them for breakfast'.

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks @Dolomedes for the thoughtful feedback.  I've taken a few days to digest your advice, but I feel I'm hitting a brick wall.

First, the positives 
 

On 9/24/2020 at 11:49 PM, Dolomedes said:

Making a one drop army and using the darkwalkers great fray is an incredibly powerful move. Your list only has the one hero (the GBS), and against a lumineth list it's probably not going to be very effective. 

 

Quote

Leave a hero to camp at your herdstone to generate primordial call points (most players put 10 ungors there too to be sacrificed)... Being able to summon screens, objective grabbers, ranged attacks and pinning units is where the real mastery of the Beastmen is developed. 

 

On 9/24/2020 at 11:49 PM, Dolomedes said:

Run a Bray Shaman with one of your Brayherd units to effectively make them cavalry. The darkwalker command trait grants an additional +1 to run rolls, so if you pair up a bray shaman general with your Bestigors they get a 9" move with +2 to run with a charge on top. Bestigors do an additional attack on the charge to boot.

A nice little tactic is to run your Bray Shaman with your Bestigors for the movement buff, get them into charge range, and then use 'Savage Encirclement' on the Bray Shaman to get them off the table and away from the fighting. 

Reframing Bray Shaman supported Bestigors as cavalry is a great idea.    
 

Spoiler

Clarification for my benefit 😉

Bestigors supported by a Great Bray Shaman can run and then charge an average of 21.5"

   6" Movement (Bestigor Unit)
+3" Bestial Vigor (GBS ability.  GBS < 12")

+1” to Run - Banner Bearer (Bestigor unit)
+1” to Run - Nomadic Leader (Darkwalker Cmd trait, GBS General < 12”)

+2d6 charge 

= Averaging 21.5” (9”+ 2" + 3.5” + 7”)


So, starting my list again from the top.  I'll need 2 heroes and some sacrificial lambs goats.  For the time being, I'll stick with Shaman for my anti-magic herd.  Thats 260pts down.
 

 

On 9/24/2020 at 11:49 PM, Dolomedes said:

I love the idea of taking the Ghorgon to eat unit champs, but unfortunately like many other Beastmen players this will probably set you up for disappointment.

 

On 9/24/2020 at 11:49 PM, Dolomedes said:

You've read the 'Soul Eater' ability of the Cygor, but the second ability deserves a mention here. 'Ghostsight' gives you re-rolls to hit against wizards. As I understand it, the entire Lumineth army are wizards. In a match up against Lumineth, the Cygor is even more terrifying then you first mentioned - they get re-rolls to hit army wide. Those D6 damage boulders are usually pants because of the 4+ to hit, but against lumineth they're killer! This re-roll also applies to melee, so if they want to engage the Cygors head on, they're still a pretty scary prospect. Against almost any other army, the Cygor just isn't worth taking, but against Lumineth, they'll 'eat them for breakfast'.

 


With 2 Bray Shaman and 2 Ghorgons, I'd start off with a potential 6 unbinds. It seems that, at 1000pts, I don't need the functionality of the Phantasmorgia of Fate battalion (all units can unbind if caster is <9").  However, more importantly, I lose my 1-drop, extra cmd pt on turn 1, and an extra cmd point on 4+ in my hero phase due to the secondary Knowing Eye artefact.

So, I'm left with the  following.  I've never run or seen BoC on the table, but doesnt seem to be an effective army.   There just aren't nearly enough boots on the ground.  And, I'm not sure summoning could make up for this

Spoiler

Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos
- Greatfray: Darkwalkers

Leaders
Great-Bray Shaman (100)  (General supports Bestigor Calvary)
Great-Bray Shaman (100)  (Herdstone Hero)

Battleline
10 x Bestigors (120)               (Bestigor Calvary)
10 x Bestigors (120)               (Bestigor Calvary)
10 x Ungors (60)                       (Herdstone Sacrifice)

Behemoths
Cygor (140)
Cygor (140)

Battalions
Phantasmagoria of Fate (180)

Total: 960 / 1000


My dilemma is what to cut from the first 1000pts.  Each element cost between 140-180pts.

  1. GBS and Ungors to sacrifice for summoning.
  2. A battalion for 1 drop, and several cmd points throughout the game.
  3. Cygor #2

Usually, this would seem an obvious choice - See you later Cygor!  The threat they present to a small lumineth army seems significant, but are they two many eggs in one basket.  Also, there aren't any significantly cheaper battalions.  Finally, the previous post offer a strong argument for the herdstone summoning. 

As I said in the original post, this was meant to be an anti-magic / lumineth army that didnt break the bank.  But for now, I'm stumped. 🤷‍♂️

EDIT:  After the original 1000pts, what units should I prepare for summoning.   ALL OF THEM!  would be great, but what should I prioritize


Any advice appreciated!

 

Edited by Kirby
Follow-up Question added
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The cygor is,.. disappointing.  I took two in a Darkwalkers Warherd list and they kinda muddled around.  I ambushed mine and that fixed the issue of range and being shot right away.  Also having a couple meant it was pressure as well as two ambushing Ghorgons.

Their BS being the biggest issue even with a rr vs mages.  Also the dmg is 0-3 on avg.  opponent makes a save or you roll a 3 on your dmg.  for 140 points, that's what that model did that turn.  

Ghorgons aren't bad they are just high ceiling low floor and usually they are rugs on the floor.  When they show up man, you can delete 20 infantry in a turn and your opponent shakes their head.  

what you suggested isn't a bad idea and I've used it vs Chaos Dwarfs in the past.  Honestly I would like to encourage you to proceed and report back :D  But,.. I dont' want to be the guy you blame for all this falling short haha.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...