Does Destruction have a viably strong magic list?

[Lord Krungharr]

Seeing the Lumineth Lords coming out, reading about Seraphon magic skink spam, facing Nagash and Tzeentch many times, I'm wondering does Destruction have any strong magic builds?  The Gitz seem to have some strength but nothing quite like those other super duper ones fore-mentioned.  Ogors have some good spells too but no real buffs or bonuses outside the Mawpot and a couple relics; casting additional spells is great but they can never unbind extra spells.  Do the Orruk Warclanns  do magic well?   I can't think of what other Destruction armies there are......

 

[Oceanic_Eyes]

Yeah it's probably just some tailored Gitz lists, and Bloodgullet for Mawtribes. I've always thought it was too bad there's only one Ironjawz wizard, they have a fun looking spell lore.

[Spiky Norman]

Big Waaagh also have the ability to transform waaagh points to +1-2 to cast, and can run the Wardokk that can also give +1 to cast. On top of that is artefacts that can provide + to casts as well as run a Rogue Idol for additional +to cast.

So they can run Wardokk, Prophet and Shaman which are all decent. The Rogue idol also buffs grot casters, if you want to ally in some more casters.

The question is of course whether that all makes it strong enough to be 'viable', but I think it can compare with the rest of the Destruction caster lists.

[PlasticCraic]

I agree with @Spiky Norman although I should point out that you can't ally the Rogue Idol into a Grots army at 2000 points any more, after he got a points hike to 420.

What I'd add is that Wardokks are often worth it for their prayers alone.  What I like about that is you can get juice out of them even if you're facing a dominant magic army that shuts you down.

A Wurggog Prophet can reliably cast at +6:

+1 from Command Trait (or +2 if there are 2+ enemy Monsters within 24")

+1 from Artefact

+1 from Rogue Idol

+1 from Wardokk Dance (works on a 3+ and you can attempt multiple times)

+2 from Big Waaagh (spending Waaagh points)

And that's just the stuff you can bank on, without your opponent being able to do anything to stop it.

That goes up to +7 if you have 2+ enemy monsters nearby, and +8 with Arcane.  

He casts 2 spells (3 on a Balewind Vortex), has a great Warscroll spell and generates CPs.  What limits his effectiveness is that he is relatively easy to kill.

Also the Maniak Weirdnob is good with his inherent rerolls, although he got a points hike to 140 because Destruction, and that's too much for what he is really.

Gits were meant to be an army with strong magic, but they've been power crept out of that.  Their strongest casters are Skragrott and the Arachnarok, both with inherent +1 and access to the Arachnacauldron for a further +1.  The Bad Moon will sometimes help a little too.

They can muck around with your opponent's casting using the Malevolent Moon (in addition to the Bad Moon Battletrait on occasion), but against a truly dominant magic army you'll never get to cast it.  It can give you the edge over mid-tier magic though, and it's a bargain given that it does MWs as well as the anti-magic.

Generally Destruction has good magic in an era of great magic, which isn't a great spot to be in unfortunately.  But if you did want to do a magic army, I'd suggest Big Waaagh as the most able to mix it with the big boys. 

Roll your crazy-gravy Bonesplitterz spells first and if you hit a lucky double, you could force out the buffed / auto unbinds early then have some fun with your own buffed casts.

[Lord Krungharr]

Intriguing; thank you for your ideas.  Got to find me finkin' capp.....and moar teef to spend!

[EMMachine]

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I agree with @Spiky Norman although I should point out that you can't ally the Rogue Idol into a Grots army at 2000 points any more, after he got a points hike to 420.

I think you got @Spiky Norman sentence the wrong way.

He didn't say Ally Rogue Idol in a Grot List. He said, ally Grot Shamans into your Great Waaagh to get more casters.

[PlasticCraic]

 

36 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I think you got @Spiky Norman sentence the wrong way.

He didn't say Ally Rogue Idol in a Grot List. He said, ally Grot Shamans into your Great Waaagh to get more casters.

You are correct @EMMachine, sorry for misunderstanding your point @Spiky Norman!

[Spiky Norman]

14 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

You are correct @EMMachine, sorry for misunderstanding your point @Spiky Norman!

Not a problem. I was simply thinking that some like the possible CP generation from the Fungoid Shaman and maybe it would be worth looking at a basic Mapcap Shaman for the -1 against shooting in a rising shooting meta.

But as you also mentioned, the Wardokk is good, and it can be a hard to choice between the two/three.

[Spiky Norman]

It's always fun to tinker around with lists in the Scrollbuilder. So I brewed up the list below, which has a magic focus, but still have 2(/3) hammers and a decent anvil. I made it mostly based off of the models I have available, though, so maybe there could be some better Bonesplitter units to sub in.

What do you think? Specifically the spell selection. Is two movement/teleport spells too much? If so, which other ones would you want?

Is it a good idea to keep Brutish Cunning to use on the Gruntas, Rogue Idol or Brutes, but forego a +1 to cast on the Prophet?

 

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Kunnin' Beast Spirits
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Breath of Gorkamorka
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Brutish Cunning
Orruk Warchanter (110)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
- Chompas
10 x Orruk Brutes (260)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Rogue Idol (420)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 172
 

[OrcaLullaby]

17 hours ago, Spiky Norman said:

It's always fun to tinker around with lists in the Scrollbuilder. So I brewed up the list below, which has a magic focus, but still have 2(/3) hammers and a decent anvil. I made it mostly based off of the models I have available, though, so maybe there could be some better Bonesplitter units to sub in.

What do you think? Specifically the spell selection. Is two movement/teleport spells too much? If so, which other ones would you want?

Is it a good idea to keep Brutish Cunning to use on the Gruntas, Rogue Idol or Brutes, but forego a +1 to cast on the Prophet?

 

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Kunnin' Beast Spirits
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Breath of Gorkamorka
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Brutish Cunning
Orruk Warchanter (110)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
- Chompas
10 x Orruk Brutes (260)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Rogue Idol (420)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 172
 

I like the fact that you make the Megaboss is the general.  Every time that in the army the biggest and the meanest of the orruk is not set as the general gorkamorka kills a kitten. 🐈

Perhaps I'm wrong as I have a lot of experience in competitive games but in the past I've found that what gave me the feeling to have the magic supremacy was the capability to cast and unbind more times than my opponent, rather than the number of +'s that I could have added to the casting roll. Because casting more times overwhelm the unbinding of the opponent and let you reliable cast always some spells without worrying of unbinding. Also when defending, to be able to unbind more than your opponent to cast, place yourself in the position to always try to unbind no matter the odds and therefore sneak some lucky rolls that otherwise i would never worried to tried. Otherwise you end by playing mind games to keep the unbinding potential for what might be about to come and ending by wasting it because the nasty spell or either fail or either is cast with a ridiculously high power.

Just my own experience which could not be correct.

Unfortunately I guess that against lumineth we cannot compete with number of cast and unbind so we can only try to stock pile +'s to cast and unbind as is doing your list.

I'm interested to see how your list does against lumineth. I'm working in a similar list but not as spell focus and I haven't played against them yet.

[PlasticCraic]

One thing I'd really like in here is the Balewind Vortex:

• Early game it gives you a Turn 0 threat with the Prophet's warscroll spell
• If we're investing in +s to cast he has a great chance of cracking that 10+, and it gives him approx 36" range (24" + 1" BWV placement + 5" BWV diameter + 6" BWV extension)
• If you are careful with deployment you might even get to cast it from out of unbind range and still hit a big unit
• Then if the situation dictates, you can dispel it and cast again with the Weirdnob Shaman
• He can start banging out double Green Puke with extended range, teleporting himself around if needs be

A pretty good tool for 40 points I think, especially with the dual use.  So if one wizard goes down, or you've zapped their only big unit, you have a secondary purpose for it.

[PlasticCraic]

Depending on what you mean by viable, I could see myself taking this to an event. 

It's not the best or most efficient Warclans army (imo) but I think you could reliably go 3-2 with something like this:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!

Leaders
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of the Weird
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Breath of Gorkamorka
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk (80)
- Artefact: Mystic Waaagh! Paint
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Kunnin' Beast Spirits
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat

Battleline
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
- Stikkas
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (360)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Behemoths
Rogue Idol (420)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 195

You're generating loads of Waaagh every turn with that little Heroes and the high body count (so you can buff your casting and unbinding even further).  

You can stack +2 to save on your Savage Orruks or Arrow Boys, with enough casts to give them a Mystic Shield too, so they're a real pita (60 wounds on 3+ RR1s, 6++).

Warchanter generates loads of Waaagh and can buff your Gruntas, then Pebbles.

We have the BWV as described above so between Green Puke, Fists of Gork and the Dakka, you have scope to do damage across multiple phases.

It's a pretty balanced army so you should be in most games, but it does lack a couple of things: you will really miss a Megaboss for access to Mighty D, and you might be better off with a CP for Turn 0 Battleshock protection rather than the BWV for the magic high jinks.  Not cutting edge competitive, but I would call it viable.

[LuminethMage]

Illuminating. : ) 

Just some input from the other side. If you are concerned about the Lumineth - it might not be that big of a deal. It depends a lot on Teclis, and generally which build will be good. If Teclis can't be brought because he is too easy to kill, your typical Lumineth player might have quite a lot of casts (or even pretty few if they focus on the mountain faction), but almost all Wizards can only cast one spell per phase, and among them will be many self-buffs. The bonuses they get aren't very high. So they might not need special attention : )

On the other hand - if a Lumineth player takes Teclis, the magic sub-faction (Zaitrec) and really wants to focus on magic, even a list like the above probably won't work well to compete with them in the magic phase. Teclis alone has 4 auto casts on a 10. Almost all of which can be "musts" to unbind. And on top of this you'll face another 5 to 10 casts per their phase depending on the build. All of them at least with a +2. As @OrcaLullaby pointed out, the volume is likely more of a problem than how many pluses you have on your own casts. This is also true without Teclis, it still will be a lot of casts (could be even more) if the Lumineth player really focuses on maximizing magic. 

And besides that, do you get a lot of bonuses to unbinds? That's also really important. Teclis comes with one auto unbind (must be in range, but otherwise can't be stopped), and unlimited normal unbinds. In addition most of the unbinds will get a +1/+2 on their rolls and will be done by various units. There is also a spell which puts a minus -2 on casters with a 10 radius. So you can't bank on getting that Balewind or some other "must" spell cast. A Lumineth player who focuses on that kind of build - will likely also be able to take out one or two of your squishy casters very fast (except if these builds provide you with great protection against MW). 

If you plan on using your magic to cause damage or any kind of effect on the Lumineth, Teclis has an ability which ignores all spell effects within 16" (get's less once he loses wounds) on a 4+ and cause 1d3 MW in return if an enemy unit is within 18". So that Green Puke might fly right back at you. Even if you get a spell through, you have a 50% chance of it doing nothing for you. And the Lumineth player likely has a 5+ shrug on MW in addition. 

I think Seraphon and Tzeentch might pose similar problems (can always unbind without range limitation, say thank you if you cast spells, a lot of casts, can easily kill some of your Wizards etc.)

I don't know if or how much a build like this would cripple you otherwise, but it might be just better to focus on your strengths (like getting there fast and smashing them really well : )). Because it might not be that helpful against the magic focused factions and you could also very easily meet a shooter focused army instead for example. On the other hand if this look like fun and a pretty well rounded build, then Waaagh on! : ) 

 

[OrcaLullaby]

Actually just thinking that just against magic focus lists Moonclans got potential. Moonclans have a lot of debuf against wizards that can make it really nasty against list that focus heavily in magic. The bad moon gives -1 to cast and unbind to enemy wizards and +1 to cast and unbind to all gloomspites gitz . In top of that there is the a the  endless spell that gives another -1 to cast and -1 to unbind.  Also there is this staff that gives +1 to cast and +1 to unbind for every wizards within 12 inch. They can also bring a cheap tone of cheap wizards. Not at lumineth level but close.

So perhaps is the stronger as an anti-magic faction but rather meh against the rest?

Edited September 13, 2020 by OrcaLullaby

[Malakithe]

Short answer is no. Explained answer: Unless your running a list that includes Teclis, Nagash, Kroak, or any Tzeentch no other faction has 'strong' magic in comparison. There is those guys then there is everything under them which falls under 'decent', 'meh', or 'none'.  

Trying to tailor a list towards heavy casting for Destruction will probably end up with a very inefficient if not non functional list. Shroom boys used to be able to but now with endless spell limit no one really can compete or deal with the big guys on a magic level. 

For Destruction magic is more for support and shouldnt ever be the main focus. The issue even with support magic is it will easily get swatted down if your facing any of the actual magic focused guys.