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SleeperAgent

What would you like to see for 3rd edition?

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On 8/18/2020 at 12:08 AM, Bayul said:

That's not what I suggested. I meant points specifically. You could still buy the rest of the physical battletome and would only miss one page, which soon after the purchase will be obsolete anyway. I could refer to X-Wing TMG 2nd Edition as a counterargument: FFG took this step and it was the most impactful and acclaimed change for the game. The community is always looking forward for those point changes. Going online can't seriously be considered as "barrier" nowadays, especially for wargaming hobbyists.

If going online to look at points is a barrier then you must be like 80 years old or something.

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5 hours ago, 123lac said:

If going online to look at points is a barrier then you must be like 80 years old or something.

Erm, let's not be ageist here!  I know plenty of people in their older years who are completely happy doing stuff online and many in their mid-thirties who prefer something physical in their hand.  The physical/digital debate is purely down to personal opinion 😉

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6 hours ago, 123lac said:

No more rule books.

Like literally, no more printed rules. None.

The rules for 3rd should be via an app.

No. Just no. That would also mean no printed lore except BL books. I like more to read a book than to constantly look into my phone or tablet. And book has no risk of dead battery because you forgot to charge it.

57 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Erm, let's not be ageist here!  I know plenty of people in their older years who are completely happy doing stuff online and many in their mid-thirties who prefer something physical in their hand.  The physical/digital debate is purely down to personal opinion 😉

Exactly. I'm not even in my 30s and I prefer physical books.

 

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I love how the Middle-Earth SBG's priority roll and turn structure (I-Move/You-Move, I-Shoot/You-Shoot, Fight!) keeps the benefits and hedge-your-bets competitive strategy of the double-turn while also eliminating the chance for a player in more-casual-games to sit there for twenty minutes doing nothing while their opponent gets to do everything twice in a row and blow half their army of the board. Best of both worlds! Plus, it improves the pacing of the game overall, with shorter stretches of player downtime.

Stop defending the double-turn. Start pushing for MESBG turn structure in 3rd Ed!

Edited by acr0ssth3p0nd
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48 minutes ago, acr0ssth3p0nd said:

I love how the Middle-Earth SBG's priority roll and turn structure (I-Move/You-Move, I-Shoot/You-Shoot, Fight!) keeps the benefits and hedge-your-bets competitive strategy of the double-turn while also eliminating the chance for a player in more-casual-games to sit there for twenty minutes doing nothing while their opponent gets to do everything twice in a row and blow half their army of the board. Best of both worlds! Plus, it improves the pacing of the game overall, with shorter stretches of player downtime.

Stop defending the double-turn. Start pushing for MESBG turn structure in 3rd Ed!

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I'm all for something like this, alternating activation's. But I am 100% against the 40k "turn order stays the same all game" rule.  Especially with shooting becoming a bigger part of the meta. All melee armies would just fall to F tier if they have to cross the battlefield into enemy fire multiple turns just to hit for the first time.

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They could always give Petrifex their +1 save back and change the command ability like they should have done in the first place.

The +1 save fits with their lore of being made from more durable bone than the other legions, the command ability is just added craziness that has no lore reason to exist.

Wishful thinking I know, but currently they are more the Petrifex shafted than the Petrifex Elite.

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1 hour ago, El Syf said:

They could always give Petrifex their +1 save back and change the command ability like they should have done in the first place.

The +1 save fits with their lore of being made from more durable bone than the other legions, the command ability is just added craziness that has no lore reason to exist.

Wishful thinking I know, but currently they are more the Petrifex shafted than the Petrifex Elite.

I don’t know your still pretty tanky with the rerolling 1s for save in the combat phase.

it’s basically a free commandtraits that your whole army gets to use for free.

although your infantry may not like it as much as the stuff before

1 hour ago, SleeperAgent said:

I'm all for something like this, alternating activation's. But I am 100% against the 40k "turn order stays the same all game" rule.  Especially with shooting becoming a bigger part of the meta. All melee armies would just fall to F tier if they have to cross the battlefield into enemy fire multiple turns just to hit for the first time.

Yeah that is true.

Armies like Khorne daemons in 40k were even considered under F tier.

This might have changed with the current  terrain rules.

although depending on what kind of battlefield your playing, it could look differently.

as for aos.

the double turn really does give us a certain distinction from the 40k system.

Still it can be pretty hard when fighting an already more supreme army (like seraphon) that can just literally shoot you of the table with a double turn at the beginning.

maybe, making it a bit harder to get the double turn, would be a good idea ,

or maybe it’s a bad one.

Edited by Skreech Verminking

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9 hours ago, 123lac said:

No more rule books.

Like literally, no more printed rules. None.

The rules for 3rd should be via an app.

Please no, I would have no problem if there would be Documents that could be downloaded and printed if needed, but not App only.

Even without Corona, I coundn't play App only because my 5 year old smartphone can't deside if it likes to charge the battlery full or if it stops at some point and at least in my case the App is crashing again at the start since last update. You would be at the mercy of the app developer if you can play your next game or not (or if the App is shut down everything would be simple gone), what is not the case with Books. There are still players playing WHFB because they have a physical book, the app instead would be long dead.

On 9/2/2020 at 11:06 AM, Overread said:

Thing is some of those artefacts are not allowed with all subfactions because they might cause imbalance in the army. So if you made them universal you'd also result in them changing to be more bland. 
 

If a subfaction boosts close combat then the artefact that also boosts close combat a lot might not be allowed with it. IT looks really neat to have, but that's because its getting toward being a broken bit of balance. Instead its in the general pool so that the general army which doesn't have the close combat bonus, can have some close combat enhancement, even if its just on one model. 

Maybe subfactions should really be like Cities of Sigmar or Hedonites of Slaanesh (so you wouldn't be forced to take one fix Command Trait and Artefact, instead having 3-6 Command Traits and Artefacts) on their own. That way we could have the flair of a specific subfaction and still more flexibility than the actual system.

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9 hours ago, 123lac said:

No more rule books.

Like literally, no more printed rules. None.

The rules for 3rd should be via an app.

You're overlooking how important printed material is. 

1) A book can sit on a shelf in a store. This in turn can have a big splash of art on the front; lore and artwork and painted models inside. It's an ideal publication to entice a customer to part with money and buy before they've bought a single model. It's the kind of thing they can dip into at leisure right in that instant. There's no "oh go home and look at it on the computer" or "look at it on your 3inch screen". They might like the lore; the artwork; the painted models; the stats; the game. That's a lot of different avenues to reinforce and person with to lure them into being a gamer. 

2) A book is much easier to reference larger bodies of text and information, especially when you are new to this information. An experienced player might only need to check one or two stats for their army or an ability description - ideal things for an app. A new person needs a more broader ability to view and read and digest that information that a page shows far more clearly than an app on a 3inch screen. More to the point the book can be read anywhere, whilst if you want it on a bigger screen you've either got to have a tablet/laptop or go home to your PC. 

3) A book doesn't run out of power.

4) A book doesn't crash randomly or have hissy fits if the internet doesn't work (or isnt' present)

5) A book doesn't require paying for after you've bought it. Either on a recurring subscription service for the app and/or for the actual data connection on a mobile device. 

6) As noted above apps tend to stick to the latest version of rules only; historical versions are likely lost or at the whim of the company. You can't play 8th edition on the app when its updated to 9th edition even if you really hate 9th edition and all your friends do. Or you just want to muck around with a different version of the game etc...

7) Many pepole find it easier to flip through a book for information on different pages rather than an app. For general reading; for general referencing in a game or even for things like army building where you might be jumping around.

In general for most armies, the points updates and FAQ/Errata documents are only a few A4 pages long; sometimes even just one side of A4. It's not a huge amount to print out and slip into the pages of a battletome to carry with you and reference. The updated information is the only big bonus that apps bring at present; some have some neat features like dice rolling and such; but in general its convenience for some and a barrier/problem to others. Maintaining both print and digital at the same time gives everyone what they want and is superior to pushing people either way.

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Rules-wise, I'm too new to have any real opinions on this. A lot of rules and interactions  I don't like are more likely to be the result of my inexperience than anything else. Otherwise... I want a Narrative System like Crusade for 40k. Yes, there are flaws because it's brand new, but I really feel like a crusade system really lends itself to epic fantasy.

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On 8/25/2020 at 10:33 AM, Ganigumo said:

("my archer can see your wizard's staff over your troll so I can shoot it")

FWIW, I'll point out that it's even worse/better than that. If the toe of my archer can draw a line between the legs of the troll and to the hem of your wizard's dress, I can shoot it.

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

FWIW, I'll point out that it's even worse/better than that. If the toe of my archer can draw a line between the legs of the troll and to the hem of your wizard's dress, I can shoot it.

😆 That sure puts it in perspective! (So to speak.)

The rules weren't so bad back in the day when shooting was less commonplace. It actually made shooting units useful. As the game stands now though, yeah, some work needs to be done there.

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Keep the main rules in the main rulebook, that's awesome and fine and totally understandable. Sell General's Handbooks yearly or twice-yearly as the only "official" source of battleplans and Matched Play rules - I'll buy that.

But the faction rules, points, and warscrolls should absolutely use the internet as their main method for delivery, allowing for frequent updates, revisions, and patches. Printed battletomes can still be a thing, but more as a container for lore and hobby guides, and perhaps coming with a themed three-ring binder with inserts containing the rules that you can swap out if there's a "patch". You can print the updates yourself or buy the nice-quality GW ones.

I would complain far less about GW's model prices if I knew they were helping pay for a better game-balancing experience. As a Sylvaneth player who just got their tome last year, knowing I'm not gonna see any revisions for another two years or more before the tome gets another pass is not a good feeling. Heck, even using the General's Handbook as a delivery method for updated rules would be acceptable for me.  I just want a more-frequent update cycle that means nerfs and buffs can be handed out on a smaller scale without needing an entire revamp of the system, and hopefully curb power creep in doing so.

Edited by acr0ssth3p0nd
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On 9/1/2020 at 3:03 PM, Athrawes said:

I'd like to see a removal of command traits and artefacts being forced on you for taking a specific subfaction. 

The books are filled with cool command traits and artefacts that will never be used because not aligning your force to a subfaction is handicapping yourself. 

I disagree. My Ironjawz don't pick a subfaction, and I'm unlikely to use one often for my Bonereapers.  The reason? I prefer the other trait/item options. If I could get the power of a subfaction and combine it with "better" items and traits, things would edge closer to bad balance.

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On 9/2/2020 at 8:36 PM, 123lac said:

No more rule books.

Like literally, no more printed rules. None.

The rules for 3rd should be via an app.

I'd leave the game. Physical books, not just rule books, are treasures for me. Going purely digital would gut a big part of the enjoyment of this hobby for me.

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48 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I disagree. My Ironjawz don't pick a subfaction, and I'm unlikely to use one often for my Bonereapers.  The reason? I prefer the other trait/item options. If I could get the power of a subfaction and combine it with "better" items and traits, things would edge closer to bad balance.

Which fits neatly into my next hope, artefacts need points costs again. There is no way that GW can balance all artefacts to be equal, which makes having them be free a balance nightmare leading to either broken or useless items. 

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Do you recall Arcane Magic and Battle Magic? Hundreds of items, all with point costs. I miss that. Still, even then there were a dozen or so Can't Miss Winners (Black Gem of Gnar, Crown of Command, and others) and 95% of the stuff just stayed home.

Now, I understand the argument that that's a problem for GW to fix with the points they assign. Two issue with that: They can't and they won't.

Can't - As much as I love GW, they have never shown any real ability to get this sort of thing right, and they've had decades to try. At this point, it's pretty much institutional tradition for them to look at gamers with rose colored glasses ("Naw, the players won't take the best stuff all the time or twist our vague wording into a horror show." smh)

Won't - I believe that, despite battalions being a thing, GW doesn't want people building armies without buying models. Every 100 points spent on a magic item is 100 points not spent on models.

 

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20 hours ago, michu said:

No. Just no. That would also mean no printed lore except BL books. I like more to read a book than to constantly look into my phone or tablet. And book has no risk of dead battery because you forgot to charge it.

Exactly. I'm not even in my 30s and I prefer physical books.

 

Ew. 

I hate how much printed material there is in this game. 

Can't stand it and don't want it. 

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32 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Do you recall Arcane Magic and Battle Magic? Hundreds of items, all with point costs. I miss that. Still, even then there were a dozen or so Can't Miss Winners (Black Gem of Gnar, Crown of Command, and others) and 95% of the stuff just stayed home.

Now, I understand the argument that that's a problem for GW to fix with the points they assign. Two issue with that: They can't and they won't.

Can't - As much as I love GW, they have never shown any real ability to get this sort of thing right, and they've had decades to try. At this point, it's pretty much institutional tradition for them to look at gamers with rose colored glasses ("Naw, the players won't take the best stuff all the time or twist our vague wording into a horror show." smh)

Won't - I believe that, despite battalions being a thing, GW doesn't want people building armies without buying models. Every 100 points spent on a magic item is 100 points not spent on models.

 

You’re welcome to your opinion but we simply disagree on these points. I think it’s perfectly doable for GW to reign in artifacts with some alternate system to what we have now.
 

The current system doesn’t work. I find it hard to imagine there are many people who look at the new realm artifacts in the GHB and compares them to even bottom tier battletomb artifacts and say they are equivalent choices and that’s a shame. But instituting even a wimpy points system with a cap would solve that issue.
 

Of all the points balance complaints people have had about GW over the years, and pretty much all of them are close to valid, I can’t recall much vitriol over the points costs of most WFB items. It’s hard to ****** up things that cost 10-50 points. 
 

As to your “won’t” point. You can’t say GW won’t because they want you to spend money on points, you already point out battalions which undercuts your argument, but we also can buy command points and basically buy triumphs with points as well. 
 

 Going one step further, I have seen plenty of lists back when malign sorcery artefacts were a thing, where people were basically buying cheap battalions simply for the 1 extra powerful artifact, which is basically points cost for artefacts already in game just with extra steps.

Edited by Athrawes

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2 hours ago, Athrawes said:

You’re welcome to your opinion but we simply disagree on these points. I think it’s perfectly doable for GW to reign in artifacts with some alternate system to what we have now.
 

The current system doesn’t work. I find it hard to imagine there are many people who look at the new realm artifacts in the GHB and compares them to even bottom tier battletomb artifacts and say they are equivalent choices and that’s a shame. But instituting even a wimpy points system with a cap would solve that issue.
 

Of all the points balance complaints people have had about GW over the years, and pretty much all of them are close to valid, I can’t recall much vitriol over the points costs of most WFB items. It’s hard to ****** up things that cost 10-50 points. 
 

As to your “won’t” point. You can’t say GW won’t because they want you to spend money on points, you already point out battalions which undercuts your argument, but we also can buy command points and basically buy triumphs with points as well. 
 

 Going one step further, I have seen plenty of lists back when malign sorcery artefacts were a thing, where people were basically buying cheap battalions simply for the 1 extra powerful artifact, which is basically points cost for artefacts already in game just with extra steps.

Yeah, giving points to Artefacts wouldn't change much (except that instead of taking the strongest artefact no artefact would be taken to spend the points elsewhere).

I have seen abilites costing points in 4. Edition 40k, where models could buy one or two abilites with adventages/disadventages. But most of the time only Traits that doesn't increase points per model were taken because most of the time the units were getting to expensive. Or when in WHFB shooting units only got musicians because it gave the unit a benefit while Standardbearers and Champion weren't worth taking (because the champion had an extra Attack, but the unit shouldn't get into close combat.

I think, others think differently but I actually like that most of the time a hero can only get one artefact and one command trait. The thing is, most of the time people tried to get the full amount of artefact points into the units (which most in the times resulted in nearly unkillable characters dealing massive amounts of damage, basicly demigods).

I mean did someone really use an artefact that gave a 6+ Aftersave when it costed 15 Points most of the time. It simply wasn't worth the points most of the time. I think it is seen more often because of flair in AoS because you can get it for free, but most likely would absolutly never be used when costing points because there would be other things that would have a better costefficiency.

3 hours ago, 123lac said:

Ew. 

I hate how much printed material there is in this game. 

Can't stand it and don't want it. 

But would it help if you basicly wouldn't be able to get access to the content because your app isn't working at the moment? At least that is the problem in my case. I really hope their is an update soon and it will work again. So right now my books are the only way for me to check the rules and lore (the app is basicly only used to quickly look for something when my books are not available or I need the english translation for reference because my books are german).

I understand the idea that device driven rules would be easier to update and would have less spreading between books, but only have online rules isn't a solution. It would only work when the rules are free to download, not with only an App where you maybe have to pay subscription and only getting the uptodate version or maybe nothing when the game gets discontinued.

In the end maybe 9th age with their free pdfs would be more likely your cup of tea?

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I think some of the dislike of printed material isn't so much a hate of books its a hate of GW's current "here's the core rules - and an army book - and an expansion book - and an expansion book - and a core rules and expansion and points update book" Then we'll repeat all teh expansion books next year and next year etc...

Basically its the volume of material and the confusion it creates when youv'e perhaps 3 or 4 generals handbooks and you're not even sure which block of optional rules are in the "core" game or not. 

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I would still definitely buy the first army book for my army, in physical print. Show of support and to flip through it and all that. However with digital rules, I would likely even give the company MORE money for a subscription to their rules app or whatever they decide (I already buy azyr even though it is seldom updated). But the current strategy of abusive number of books is annoying, difficult to keep up with, and leads to frustrating 'gotcha' moments with things spread all over the place. 

I don't think people want to move all digital- we all appreciate the value of physical books for exactly the reasons listed above (easier the first time, great for new players, fun art, good lore). Just something a little more realistic for everything else. 

I love Warhammer for its physical aspect, but it could learn a thing from video games (which are really the modern translation of a war game at this point), that could improve the physical experience.

 

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2 hours ago, Overread said:

"here's the core rules - and an army book - and an expansion book - and an expansion book - and a core rules and expansion and points update book"

* and in maximum a year from now it will be worthless paper trash and no longer be legal to play with. Sorry for costing you some hundred euros.

Edited by JackStreicher
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My 3 wishlist items:

-Remove Priority roll.

-40k style morale with less morale immunity.

-re-evalute wholly within buffs and attack ranges to make 32mm based horde units better in melee.

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Do people reckon stormcast will be one of the two 3rd edition starter box armies? Who will the villain be? 

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