New player trying to decide on 1st army (Nurgle and StD questions)

[NeoSoul]

Hello!

(Disclaimer):
I couldn't find a faction specific section so I'm asking these questions in the appropriate Grand Alliance forums.  I want to get into AOS and I'm having a hard time deciding on which army to go with as many of them look unique and cool.  I watched a long video that roughly went over every faction but it was slightly outdated (not all of the 2nd edition tomes were out yet back then).  The look of the army is my most important criteria as I love to collect miniatures and want to be motivated to paint them.  However, I still want to play the game, I like strategy games and RTS (I normally do well at them) so since I'm having a hard time deciding based off looks, I'm trying to learn a bit more about the different play styles.  I'm not usually a big fan of cookie cutter builds and metas in games, I know it can change a lot but I'm trying not to totally ignore people's comments about some factions severely underperforming as I'd still probably like to be able to win games once in a while once I get decent at it.  The factions that I'm hesitating most between right now are Orruk Warclans, Slaves to Darkness, Maggotkin of Nurgle and Ossiarch Bonereapers.

This one post is about Maggotkin of Nurgle and Slaves to Darkness so it'll be in two parts.  

Maggotkin of Nurgle:

 

Here are some pros and cons I see so far:

Pros:

- Very unique and flavorful models.  I particularly love the Blightkings type of units and the Glottkin.

- They videos I watched said that they were very durable units.

- The tier lists and videos I saw were normally saying that they weren't very top tier but that they were still good and competitive.

- They can take in a few other Chaos units in their armies if I understood it right and Chaos has many other factions that I find interesting.

Cons:

-  I don't really like the "daemons" type of models and the summoning Gardens so much (visually).

- The info I found seemed to be saying that most of the units I prefer for the looks aren't very good competitively and that you basically have to mostly play daemons units (I don't know if it's still the case).

- They're apparently very slow.

 

So here are my questions for Maggotkin of Nurgle:

1- Would I be hurting myself in terms of mechanics and army potential if I wasn't going with the daemons (or hardly any of them)?  I know this sounds very vain but there's about half of the models that I love and the other half that I dislike so if the looks is a big factor for me and I have to field half or more of my army with models that I don't really like and have to paint them too, it may not be ideal for me.

2- What makes Maggotkin of Nurgle unique and fun to play in terms of game play and mechanics?  Do they have something they're very good at?

3- Any other useful information about them that can make them more appealing than other factions?

 

Slaves to Darkness:

 

Pros:

- The new Start to Collect chaos knights and chaos warriors are quite possibly my very favorite infantry models in the entire game (and Archaon is also one of the coolest large models in my tastes as well).  Some of the other StD "human" sets are quite unique and cool as well as a few demons.

- I don't quite understand how that works yet but it seems like you can incorporate different other Chaos God faction units and gain different bonuses which sounds pretty nice and many other Chaos factions have models that I find interesting as well.

- The Everchosen (Chaos Knights/Warriors?) that are my favorite models seem to be fairly durable and have many units that have good mobility?

- Archaon is supposed to be very powerful (but also fragile) and I could get a full army without having to paint an endless amount of small models I think.

Cons:

- My biggest worry is that tier lists and videos seem to put them as being absolutely terrible for competitive play.  Are Chaos Warriors/Knights as terrible as what people say?  They do almost no damage and can only do something good if all the stars align?

- I don't really like some of the older models like the Marauders (the older Chaos Warriors also aren't as nice but still much better than most of the other older models I've seen).

- I like monsters and beasts and it seems like this faction doesn't have many of these, mostly humans in really cool armors.

- I'll definitely want to get Archaon if I play this faction and it seems like he's a pain to carry around.

 

So here are my questions for Slaves to Darkness:

 

1- My main concern as I wrote above is the viability of the faction.  Several of the local players are also rather new to the game but play some factions that are considered to be strong at the moment (Seraphon, Stormcast, Fyreslayers) and I don't know if I go with the starter kit up against theirs, if I'll love my models but end up very frustrated if it's as loopsided as some people make it sound.

2- I don't quite understand where StD stand for in terms of lore.  It seemed like they were basically humans that are cheap frontlines for the different Chaos gods?  Does this make them a bit "flavorless"?

3- Can StD incorporate a few models from an other Chaos faction (that point was unclear to me)?

4- What makes Slaves to Darkness unique and fun to play in terms of game play and mechanics?  Do they have something they're very good at?

5- Any other useful information about them that can make them more appealing than other factions?

 

[Overread]

2- I don't quite understand where StD stand for in terms of lore.  It seemed like they were basically humans that are cheap frontlines for the different Chaos gods?  Does this make them a bit "flavorless"?

 

Basically the Age of Myth ended when Chaos stormed into the Mortal Realms en-mass. A huge uprising and demonic invasion that tore into every single faction and drove many to destruction. Thus started 500 years of the Age of Chaos. The Gods retreated for the most part and areas of the realms were steadily destroyed and conquered and corrupted. By the time you reach the Age of Sigmar, when Sigmar marches forth from his Azure realm with legions of Stormcast, many of the peoples of the world are broken. 

Those who remain, which ranges from wild tribes all the way to civilised nations, are mostly in the thrall of Chaos in some form. They represent the bulk of humanity in the realms and are "slaved" to chaos even if they worship gods who are not "one of the great four". In the shadows Greater Demons pretend to be other gods to secure those believers. You see this a lot through the "Warcry Warbands" who represent minor factions who worship other gods, but who all are reflections of Chaos. They quest and fight and campaign to join the legions of the Slaves to Darkness. 

So at one end you've got these humans (some wild some from grand nations) who fight and pillage to join the legions and rise through the ranks. At the other end you've got Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights - men and women who are fully corrupted by the powers of Chaos and are fully devoted to the legion and one of the four great gods. In addition there are corrupted who show blessings of chaos through powers, extra wriggling limbs and other mutations of the body and mind. 

In short they are absolutely full of flavour and represent one of the greatest forces in the Mortal Realms. Their peoples spread through every realm; corrupted and spreading their corruption and blight. From the Warbands who hardly realise what they do through to Warriors besotted with their gods. 

 

 

If you want a nice idea then get the novella "Warqueen" its a great read and gives you a real sense for how people can be corrupted and turn to Chaos and its own internal power struggles and the like. 

[sfe667]

I started AoS at Christmas, and the new Warrior/Knight sculpts were the thing that sold me on StD. Having Archaon and the Varanguard in the model range was a positive too from a Rule of Cool perspective. 

Are they competitive right now, if you measure them on the basis of whether they can win tournaments? I'm in no way experienced enough to assess that, but a listen to the recent Just Play podcast (which focuses on the competitive side of the game) says that they'll struggle to win them outright. That being said, they have so many different ways to put 2,000pts on the board you will always be able to adjust to whatever local meta you're playing in. Personally, I started with the typical blocks of Warriors/Knights/Marauders, but have recently moved to Archaon plus 3x 3 Varanguard and it's loads of fun - and considered to be one of the most competitive lists in the book too.

To answer one of your questions, yes, you can Ally in any model from the four main Chaos god armies, which gives you lots of options. As a common example, you can run a Khorne Bloodsecrator and it will give the +1atk buff to any StD model running with the Mark of Khorne (like Marauders) or anything with the Khorne keyword (like Archaon). You'll see Kairos running in a Cabalists army, for example.

Are they particularly good at something compared to other factions? No, not really. Archaon & VG are super elite, so that's quite unique, but I wouldn't say there's anything that StD offer that other armies can't also do. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing if you're playing for the enjoyment of the hobby with similarly skilled friends, as whilst they don't do much that's 'best in class', they offer a load of tools to choose from to keep things interesting:

- Teleporting + the 97% chance of a successful 9" charge with Marauders means they always offer a deep strike threat. Buff a block of 40 with reroll hits/wounds and they'll delete pretty much anything.

- They have fantastic board control. Be'Lakor can lock a unit down to two turns, the Khorne DP can halve runs & charges in an 18" bubble, Whispers of Chaos can stop a unit moving, the Sphinx cat can force a unit to go last in the combat phase, Realmscourge Rupture halves the movement characteristic, etc. It can be quite oppressive against melee armies.

- You can make a true cavalry army! It'll be extremely expensive to put on the board, but Knights/VG/Chariots/Horsemen along with the mounted heroes look great.

- Whilst there isn't an easy 'best' allegience choice, with most purely OK, they allow you to mix things up from game to game. Ravagers gives you summoning, Despoilers is useful against shooting armies, Cabalists gives much-needed +'s to spell casting, Hosts lets you see who gets the first turn in a battle round, and Empty Throne gives you a useful way of nabbing objectives with smaller units. I'd argue the internal balance in the book is actually pretty good, notwithstanding the fact that a LOT of the warscrolls will never see the light of day unless you enjoy the fluff over being viable!

Overall, I'm glad I chose them as they are undeniably a great model range, with a load of tools to keep things interesting. It's also extremely easy to keep things interesting by running other Chaos models in StD, or even to run StD as the bulk of models in one of the other Chaos factions (less Skaven). That latter point might be one of the biggest issues that StD will have in terms of keeping the army competitive however; anything they do with the point cost - the core models are arguably pointed quite high compared to other factions - means they also affect the balance of that unit in other factions. Their points also feel like they're balanced around the various buffs they can get, but with the small bubble range, average spell casting, and the 3+ Warshrine requirement, it's not a guarantee the unit will have those buffs at the time they need them. 

Apologies for the long post but hopefully it's helpful? Don't buy the army if you are only interested in winning a high percentage of games, but they are definitely a) viable, b) versatile, and c) aesthetically great.

[Skreech Verminking]

Slaves to darkness, might actually be a good choice for you.

with Slaves-td you have a huge range of tough and killy units like Chaos warriors, Knights, and more.

And with the recent start collection, you’ll even get some great looking models.

What makes slave-td so great is basically their dedication to a single chaos gods, will will grant you access to other allegiance abilities with your army, if you so desire.

So starting with slaves-td basically means, starting a Nurgle army at the same time if you really wanted to do that.

Now both armies won’t do terrible in casual play.

But if your going to participate at a tournament, taking first, second or third place (unless there are only 4-5 participators), won’t be really easy in the current meta.

Then again, no army really is that great at winning tournaments, unless your either playing KO, Seraphons or Lumineth.

So unless your looking for an Army that wins by like more then half of the time, slaves might be the right army to take

Edited August 17, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Scurvydog]

It is true many StD units can easily be put into the other god specific armies, it is a bit less so the other way, yet can still be useful. 

StD is great to get a lot of value from the models and do different things, they have rather varied playstyles built into their sub factions, even though they lean towards some specific models, a lot of units can be used for everything, like warriors, marauders and knights for example. You can also take a StD army and run them as a Khorne army, using that books allegiance for some interesting synergies and using their unique judgements (undless spells) with the warshrines. The warshrines are priests basically, but StD got no prayers, Khorne does however and massively increases their potential.

Keep in mind though, that many things require the Salves to Darkness keyword, for example the mentioned warshrine, all the buffs it provides is only applicable to the StD keyword. Also the other way around, for example the Nurgle book will mostly do things to Daemons or Rotbringers specifically. Some units are fantastic allies though, like Bloodsecrators giving +1 attack for Khorne units in range and a Harbinger of decay providing a 5+ ignore wounds save in a 7" bubble, however except for cases as these, it will probably be best to focus on StD units, find a preferred playstyle, and then see what god keywords suit the best and then what might be cool allies.

I did not start my StD to be hyper competetive, a sort of balanced army is decent, but will not go 5/5 in most cases. They can't easily snipe support heroes, they can't really brawl with dedicated armies for that, like Fyreslayers, and they will be shut down in the magic phase by magic armies like Seraphon or Tzeentch. They do have answers to these armies individually, but it is not really possible for a 1 size fits all kind of build needed for a semi consistent 5/5 army.

Is your meta magic heavy? Then tzeentch can provide a 4+ ignore spells save near your general. Is shooting the issue? Then Nurgle with the -1 to be hit with missiles aura can help. They sort of got an answer to everything, but that answer might not be entirely enough all the time, but the army can most certainly win games, it has some cool and strong units, lots of hobby potential too, which is why I went with it recently.

If you want competitive I would suggest adding in Be'lakor somehow. This guy alone can shut down some "meta" lists by himself if used right. Especially armies like the mentioned fyreslayers, if their big battalion blob of fight first, fight twice hearthguards suddenly can only act on a 5+? Utterly nasty and can give you the fighting chance needed. However you should probably not bring him to beer and pretzels games at the club, people HATE having their fancy cool unit or model completely gimped when needed the most

[Hannibal]

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

Maggotkin of Nurgle:

- They're apparently very slow.

Nope. That simply isn´t true. The Great Unclean One with Bell gives every NURGLE unit within certain inches a speed buff. The first number on the wheel (part of Nurgle allegiance abilities) is also a spedd buff. The Nurgle Tree (part of your Allegiance abilities) allows for run and charge.

 

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

So here are my questions for Maggotkin of Nurgle:

1- Would I be hurting myself in terms of mechanics and army potential if I wasn't going with the daemons (or hardly any of them)?  I know this sounds very vain but there's about half of the models that I love and the other half that I dislike so if the looks is a big factor for me and I have to field half or more of my army with models that I don't really like and have to paint them too, it may not be ideal for me.

You can quite easily go with just the mortals side of Nurgle which also incorporates most of the StD book.

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

2- What makes Maggotkin of Nurgle unique and fun to play in terms of game play and mechanics? 

I collected and still collect them due to flavour. There is nothing unique right now when it comes to gameplay besides the wheel of corruption maybe.

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

Do they have something they're very good at?

They are really good at moving to a spot real fast and then try to refuse to not die. They are ressilient, but others do it better right now (Hearthguard Berzerkers, Phoenix Guard, some others) and these also offer offensive output, something that NURGLE severly lacks.

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

3- Any other useful information about them that can make them more appealing than other factions?

Othe the the models and the flavour I have a hard time trying to find something outstanding.

 

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

- My biggest worry is that tier lists and videos seem to put them as being absolutely terrible for competitive play.  Are Chaos Warriors/Knights as terrible as what people say?  They do almost no damage and can only do something good if all the stars align?

Chaos Warriors are really ressilient, in fact they are almost as ressilient as Plaguebearers compared to their points cost. You can get 15 Chaos Warriors for 270 points, 30 wounds, 4+ rerollable save, 5 ++ save against mortal wounds. 300 points give you 30 PLaguebaerers: 30 wounds, 5+ armour save, 5++ save after save. Same number of attacks but Warriors are slightly more offensive (mathematically). They build a very good anvil IMO.

Chaos Knights are absolutely comparable to other cavalry in the game, though cavalry are not the best unit type out there.

Chaos Sorcerer Lords are a steal IMO, but lack any kind of bonusses to casting.

Marauders are really really good, but the models are ugly. They are extremely fast, especially under Nurgle Allegiance (see above) where they can easily acomplish first turn charges.

Archaon and Varanguard form a good mid tier list with few models. Nice looking, not too shabby.

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

- I like monsters and beasts and it seems like this faction doesn't have many of these, mostly humans in really cool armors.

The Soulgrinder is a nice looking beast, but it is DAEMON in a faction that mostly supports MORTALS.

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

1- My main concern as I wrote above is the viability of the faction.  Several of the local players are also rather new to the game but play some factions that are considered to be strong at the moment (Seraphon, Stormcast, Fyreslayers) and I don't know if I go with the starter kit up against theirs, if I'll love my models but end up very frustrated if it's as loopsided as some people make it sound.

IMO you can´t beat well played Fireslayers as well as Seraphon right now with NURGLE or StD. If that is important to you, look for something different.

23 hours ago, NeoSoul said:

3- Can StD incorporate a few models from an other Chaos faction (that point was unclear to me)?

As allies you can include a lot of Chaos models.

 

[NeoSoul]

Thank you for all of the information!  I just went and got IJ to start with but this info will still be useful once I inevitably consider a second army (I really love the StD and Maggotkin models so it's likely they'll be in my mind for that) : P

[JCar09]

I think u can win a tournament with nurgle and slaves atm.  I win 1 Month ago 16 players tournament with nurgle rotbringers

[Kurrilino]

14 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Slaves to darkness, might actually be a good choice for you.

with Slaves-td you have a huge range of tough and killy units like Chaos warriors, Knights, and more.

 

Please just stop.

This is simply not true

[Skreech Verminking]

4 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

Please just stop.

This is simply not true

Well it is what the lore says.

on the table I guess the more killier stuff in your army are knights (after a charge) varanguard, and Barbarians.

for thougness, Chaos warriors really do fit the bill, considering that a unit of 30 Can have 60 wounds with a 4+ save and a 5++ shrug against mortals.

Sure they may not be so tough against seraphons, Ko or lumineth, but at this points, there really aren’t many armies that can survive the current shooting meta armies anyway. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Scurvydog]

3 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well it is what the lore says.

on the table I guess the more killier stuff in your army are knights (after a charge) varanguard, and Barbarians.

for thougness, Chaos warriors really do fit the bill, considering that a unit of 30 Can have 60 wounds with a 4+ save and a 5++ shrug against mortals.

Sure they may not be so tough against seraphons, Ko or lumineth, but at this points, there really aren’t many armies that can survive the current shooting meta armies anyway. 

StD might not be the absolute apex predator of armies right now, but they do have some punch and toughness. Chaos warrior units of 10+ models also get to reroll their saves, as such I like to make a unit of 15, this gives them some nice staying power, combined with a warshrine for a general 6+ shrug, although it does no longer stack with their 5+ shields against MW, StD and the warshrine took a hit with that change.

If you use the warshrine blessing on a unit of nurgle warriors to get 3+ with rerolling saves and 6+ shrug, then you get a very sturdy unit. As nurgle, near a general you can also get -1 to be hit with shooting. Having a lot of armywide access to 5+ MW saves from shields and -1 to be hit with shooting from nurgle, the army can take some blows. If you are in a really nasty magic meta, going Tzeentch could be interesting, as the general then provides a 5+ spell ignore aura, which can really annoy those DoT, lumineth or Seraphon players  

Alternatively speaking of knights, you can also instead go Khorne, run them next to a khorne general to get reroll 1 to hit and +1 to wound. A warshrine can give them reroll hits and wounds, and a bloodsecrator can give +1 attack, making their damage really impressive, but like all other things StD it really needs to support itself. The warshrine and sorcerors is key to this, the buffs are incredibly good and a single sorceror can as an ability provide reroll saves and also has a warscroll spell for reroll to hit and to wound, which takes an average unit to an amazing unit by itself.

[Kurrilino]

Both of you made good points but this is cherry picking and far from reality.

 

In a real game we get maybe 2 spells of the whole game if lucky. There are popular armies out there who just control the magic phase.

Beside that almost every army has now a auto dispell table wide. We can cancel out the magic phase as an advantage point for us.

The warshrine seems nice but there is the nasty 3+ to get the ability off. This shouldn't be a thing at all. This will fail when needed most.

It should have no prayer roll and should work in a bubble to make it reliable.

The sorcerer's ability to provide save rerolls is redundant with the warriors reroll saves.

Knights being great at a first look but they have to few attacks considering their base size. It's impossible to get 10 Knights in combat

Also they have an average save and can easily be killed.

[Koala]

Well, the biggest disadvantage of StD is obviously all the whining here... 

Both Maggotkin and Beasts of Chaos have clearly worse Tournament ratings but their players seem to be more positive.

 

When starting the hobby you should never be TOO concerned with the current power builds. Rules change and the next "meta dominating list, so broken" is just around the corner. In friendly games this does not matter much anyway, AoS is rather balanced.

Follow the RULE OF COOL.

A good looking model will always be exactly that. And fun to build/Paint too!

That one unit you bought because everyone said it was awesome but you never got yourself to paint it? Not so much!

So i would suggest the StD Start Collecting ( as it is a great start for both StD as well as Mortal Maggotkin and the models are just rad). Then you have a few games with them. And THEN you decide, what you want to add. 

Or just start with any other Start Collecting Box you fancy!

 

 

[Ninelives]

1 hour ago, Koala said:

 

When starting the hobby you should never be TOO concerned with the current power builds. Rules change and the next "meta dominating list, so broken" is just around the corner. In friendly games this does not matter much anyway, AoS is rather balanced.

Follow the RULE OF COOL.

A good looking model will always be exactly that. And fun to build/Paint too!

Exactly this, the model you buy will always be that. So if you're not happy with it you shouldn't buy it. 

Otherwise you risk spending a lot of time chasing the meta, if you're cool with that go ahead, but it is a risk.