Elite infantry in AoS

[Cookiez]

Hello everyone, my first post here.

I would like to talk about the old elite infantry in Matched Play, which, in my opinion is rather unusable. Take stormvermin - amazing stats, probably the best elite in the whole game, but they cost 280 points for 20 models, 5+ save (4+ against 1 damage attacks) and 5 bravery (can be bypassed easily, but it's still there). Why even bother if i get 3 stormfiends for 300 points, which can shoot 2d3 mortal wounds each and hit like a truck or even like a freight train with dooflayer gauntlets.

Or grave guard, swordmasters... 5 models for 80 points, so probably you should take 10 for 160. I can't see a reasonable point in including them in the list. Ok, tarpits/chaff still works in Age of Sigmar (nothing more amazing to see for me than brutes, wasting their precious turn in which they should come as close to my ranged units as possible or charging stormfiends, smiting to dust 60 points 10 clanrats instead), but then there is a huge gap in overcosted (?) old elite infantry (should the brutes or retributors become the new elite infantry, 3 wounds each?), and in the end we got behemoths and elites of elites, like stormfiends or heavy cav like skullcrushers.

Do you have any other experience, you would like to share?

[Sadysaneto]

Well, you are comparing wfb with aos.

Some got worse, a lot got better.

 

[Payce]

I've played my Dark Elves, and I've played them A LOT, with a block of 20 Executioners and a block of 20 Witches with Cauldron support as my main meatgrinders. What I can say is, they simply outperform everything else, again and again. Once you get the Executioners into battle, you're going to chew through units at an insane pace, especially with a Mystic Shield on them. And having your Witches cause 51 wounds to be saved because of all the rerolls should frighten anyone.

My most regular opponent plays Khorne Bloodbound, and I've firmly learned to fear his Chosen in a similar manner. They simply outperform everything else once they smash into your lines. Interestingly, the huge disappointments for us both have been monsters, neither Hydra nor Slaughterbrute does much, while the elite infantry has become a tactical dance of ours every game to out-manouver each other.

You can compare the Executioners to Retributors and say, "But these are better", but that's really not the point. The point is, Executioners are a flat out horrorshow of a unit to face, and the 40 Bleakswords you can get at the same cost as 20 Executioners simply won't outperform them, ever.

[Nico]

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I would like to talk about the old elite infantry in Matched Play, which, in my opinion is rather unusable. Take stormvermin - amazing stats, probably the best elite in the whole game, but they cost 280 points for 20 models, 5+ save (4+ against 1 damage attacks) and 5 bravery (can be bypassed easily, but it's still there). Why even bother if i get 3 stormfiends for 300 points, which can shoot 2d3 mortal wounds each and hit like a truck or even like a freight train with dooflayer gauntlets.

I would disagree very heavily with this. Elite infantry have always had a role and now their role is even more important given that it's model count that captures objectives.

The damage output of 30 Stormvermin is huge, even without any buffs. The damage output of 10 or 20 or 30 Executioners with +1 to hit from a Hurricanum is taking Archaon off the board and a few other units for good measure (26 mortal wounds for 20 of them). With mystic shield and possibly cover, they are one of the few types of unit that can take a charge from Gordrakk, Alarielle or a Stonehorn and then strike back and half kill or kill it.

Also Stormfiends with guns have weak melee attacks.

 

 

[Cookiez]

I really do agree with the damage output! 30 stormvermin or executioners (maybe 20 here because of the range) are the scariest units in the battlefiend probably. On the other hand though, and that is my main concern, they die as easy as other 1 wound models. MAYBE my opinion is a little bit shifted because, as you can see, I play Skaven, so dealing high rend and high mortal wounds attacks is something normal. Focused fire from jezzails, cannon, stormfiends, some more spells from arch warlock and 30 model unit just won't have a single charge in the game. If I take a first turn, even more models run away, as my opponent won't have a chance to cast inspiring presence - jezzails and cannon can do max 12 dmg per shooting phase, bravery 5 - you can do the math. You just lost a unit worth half of your army.
 

[daedalus81]

Be conscious of the number of drops that you have to try and win choice of initial turn order.  Having bigger more expensive units will help a bit with that.

[PJetski]

Seraphon and Freeguild do infantry properly. They are average for their cost but the multitude of buffs makes them surprisingly powerful.

Take the Saurus Guard as an example. Normally 5 models for 100 points, 1 W, 4+ save that ignores Rend-1, 2 attacks @ 3+/3+/-1/1 and 1 bite @ 5+/4+/-/1, really nothing special by themselves.

But put them near a hero and they have a 3+ save. If that hero is an Eternity Warden they get +1 Attack. Astrolith Bearer/Sunblood lets them reroll hits, Bloodclaw Starhost gives them +1 bite attack, Oldblood gives them reroll wound1, Scarvet on Carnosaur gives them generate attack on hit6, Skink Priest gives them rerollable run + charge + save, Eternal Starhost gives them +1 Save and D3 damage if they don't move... the buff stacking is out of control.

It is really fitting with the Order flavour of "United we stand against all odds!" and I love it

[daedalus81]

Stormvermin are 14ppm with 2" weapons.  Saurus Guard are 20ppm and 1" weapons.  

You obviously can assign them to only one battalion and give one command ability, but otherwise you listed about 760 points of support for what should be about a 400 point unit to make it worthwhile.

I can think of a lot of ways to get effectiveness out of my army for 700 points aside from buff stacking.  It's a different way to play for sure -- and that is great regardless.

[Cookiez]

21 minutes ago, PJetski said:

But put them near a hero and they have a 3+ save. If that hero is an Eternity Warden they get +1 Attack. Astrolith Bearer/Sunblood lets them reroll hits, Bloodclaw Starhost gives them +1 bite attack, Oldblood gives them reroll wound1, Scarvet on Carnosaur gives them generate attack on hit6, Skink Priest gives them rerollable run + charge + save, Eternal Starhost gives them +1 Save and D3 damage if they don't move... the buff stacking is out of control.

And all that doesn't matter because of mortal wounds. You just sinked X points in a elite infantry unit.

[Sadysaneto]

26 minutes ago, Cookiez said:

And all that doesn't matter because of mortal wounds. You just sinked X points in a elite infantry unit.

thats why chaff is important. No unity is safe in AOS, any one can go to hell in one combat phase. Thus, use cannon fodder to screen.

[rokapoke]

9 minutes ago, Cookiez said:

And all that doesn't matter because of mortal wounds. You just sinked X points in a elite infantry unit.

So the only units worth taking, in the entire game, must be those with a save against mortal wounds, right?

[Nico]

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Take the Saurus Guard as an example. Normally 5 models for 100 points, 1 W, 4+ save that ignores Rend-1, 2 attacks @ 3+/3+/-1/1 and 1 bite @ 5+/4+/-/1, really nothing special by themselves.

Nothing special - that's basically amazing. Better armour than 90% of Death heroes and monsters and 98% of Chaos Heroes and Monsters.

Of course, as you say, the presence of Kroak and a Skink Priest turns them into a 2+ rerolling 1s invulnerable ball.

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And all that doesn't matter because of mortal wounds. You just sinked X points in a elite infantry unit.

However, what are mortal wounds even better at countering - yes it's heroes, monsters and monstrous cavalry?

At least 4 blocks of elite infantry can get ward saves, namely Phoenix Guard, Hearthguard Berserkers, Stormvermin with Thanquol and even Grave Guard near the general with the command trait. Maybe 3 monsters have outright (to both wounds and mortal wounds) ward saves in the game and two of those are Phoenixes and the other a Dread Maw.

 

[FullMetalRPG]

Once again I find myself agreeing with my pal @Nico. Stormvermin wreck face. A block of Stormvermin benefiting from the various buffs available due to unit size and proximity to heroes will crew through lesser powered units and has the ability to overwhelm objectives. Because you have to play to objectives models like Stormfiends with high output but few actual bases on the table will be limited to annihilation style rolls because they simply don't have the manpower to exert control over the board.

The old tank and flank strategy has not gone away. List building is going to based on balancing your swarm infantry that can bog down objectives with your elites that can cut through enemies like a wheat thresher. Of course your opponent will be attempting to do their army's version of the same. And this is where the tactics come in. It sounds like @Cookiez already has a robust tactical life dueling with your Khorne opponent. Right on, don't let anyone get away with saying there's no tactics in AoS!

[PJetski]

35 minutes ago, Nico said:

Nothing special - that's basically amazing. Better armour than 90% of Death heroes and monsters and 98% of Chaos Heroes and Monsters.

Of course, as you say, the presence of Kroak and a Skink Priest turns them into a 2+ rerolling 1s invulnerable ball.

At their point value Saurus Guard are really nothing special without buffs. Liberators are a very close comparison as they have similar defensive and offensive stats but double the wound count for the same point/model cost. The buffs you can give to Guard make them better than Liberators.

[Nico]

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At their point value Saurus Guard are really nothing special without buffs. Liberators are a very close comparison as they have similar defensive and offensive stats but double the wound count for the same point/model cost. 

Maybe it seems like small beer, but having rend on the Saurus Guard (and an extra (two) attack(s)) and ignoring -1 rend (and bravery 10 for lolz) does elevate them a lot over Liberators.

[Wailslake]

5 hours ago, Cookiez said:

Why even bother if i get 3 stormfiends for 300 points...

Because the Stormvermin models are so nice! Really great looking unit on the field.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

In AoS there isn't really a clear cut between elite and core units. It's more like:

Chaff: Nasty skulkers

Horde chaff: Grots

Line Infantry: Orruks

Assault infantry: Savage orruks

Heavy infantry: Orruk Ardboys

Elite infantry: Orruk brutes

[FullMetalRPG]

@The Jabber Tzeentch I take your point. It's like, Blightkings: core infantry, or heavy infantry? Both at the same time? I dunno.

[shinros]

6 hours ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

In AoS there isn't really a clear cut between elite and core units. It's more like:

Chaff: Nasty skulkers

Horde chaff: Grots

Line Infantry: Orruks

Assault infantry: Savage orruks

Heavy infantry: Orruk Ardboys

Elite infantry: Orruk brutes

Yeah I don't consider graveguard to be very "elite" in a sense they just have a different role. Honestly I think it just depends on the faction and how they play. 

[someone2040]

I get good use out of elite infantry, and all my armies have some sort of them from the Age that was. They are glass cannony though, as while most have a 4+ save they generally only have a 4+ save.

I would think 20 Stormvermin would be a pretty decent investment at 280 points (I think they can hit on 3+ somehow right?). Likewise, I wouldn't snub my nose at Swordmasters who can re-roll 1's to hit and re-roll saves in the shooting phase.

 

Are they the equivalent of Retributors, Brutes or other large elite infantry that have a few wounds and kick out damage? Well, they're probably just a bit different. Those models tank up a bit by having a few extra wounds, while your elite 1 wound infantry tank up by having more bodies available.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

@The Jabber Tzeentch I take your point. It's like, Blightkings: core infantry, or heavy infantry? Both at the same time? I dunno.

For Mortal Nurgle I would think something like:

Chaff: Chaos hounds

Horde chaff: Chaos Marauders

Line Infantry: Chaos Warriors

Assault infantry: Chaos Chosen

Heavy infantry: Blightkings

Elite infantry: NA

They don't really have the elite infantry, Blightkings just don't have the reliable damage output against anything with armour.

[Ollie Grimwood]

If people are targeting your Stormvermin with mortal wound attacks they have either got an absolute shed load of them or they are making a big mistake and not targeting nastier stuff that needs it. In which case I'd say they are fulfilling a rather useful role by drawing off those attacks which probably won't destroy them but would do to the other stuff. I doubt the lesser infantry units would cause enough concern to do that

[FullMetalRPG]

6 hours ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

For Mortal Nurgle I would think something like:

Chaff: Chaos hounds

Horde chaff: Chaos Marauders

Line Infantry: Chaos Warriors

Assault infantry: Chaos Chosen

Heavy infantry: Blightkings

Elite infantry: NA

They don't really have the elite infantry, Blightkings just don't have the reliable damage output against anything with armour.

Dude,  that was a very enlightening breakdown, I have been entertaining the idea of Chaos Chosen but I'm not really sold on them yet. Thanks as always for you insights.

[daedalus81]

Assault Infantry doesn't really belong as a categorization, I think - as assault infantry tend to be elite line-breakers.  Chosen I would personally place as elite.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

Dude,  that was a very enlightening breakdown, I have been entertaining the idea of Chaos Chosen but I'm not really sold on them yet. Thanks as always for you insights.

Chosen are pretty good, I've used a unit of five as a strike and buff unit. They do decent damage and the buff they give nearby units like chaos warriors can really help