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Capturing objectives


Third

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Hi

I'm pretty sure I read a FAQ somewhere on this subject, but now I can't seem to find it.. 

If I ambush 6" from the table edge, can I capture an objective which is 12" from the table edge? To my knowledge, a single model can "make the distance" 🙂

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On 7/24/2020 at 4:12 PM, RedMax said:

I guess that you have to deploy within 6" (so all point of the bases completly within 6" of table edge).

If objective is 12" of table edge, as said @jamie.white , your deployement will not allow you to be within the 6" of objective, you will be just outside. So except if you can move after (or charge) or have an ability allowing you to make a small move int the objective way, you'll have to wait for your next movement phase to be able to get into the objective (and I guess this is the whole intend of the rule).

 

On 7/24/2020 at 4:15 PM, jamie.white said:

The rules on taking objectives cover this . Remember you have to be within 6 not 6 away . There is a difference . I am not sure if there is an faq covering this though . 

You are wrong. "Within 6 inches" includes "6 inches away". Here is the relevant part from the Core Rules:

 

"[...]So, for example, a unit is within 12" of another unit as long as any model from one unit is 12" or less from any model from the other unit[...]"

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 2)

 

On 7/28/2020 at 12:08 PM, Bululu said:

i would say yes, 1 miniature can be within 6'' of the objective and the edge, because the 6 belongs to both places there doesnt exist a space that separes both places, its like if you have a ruler       0 -------|------- 12      the | on the middle is 6'' and within 6 let you touch that | and that thing is also within 6'' of the objective, there is no imaginary space that separes that place.   The | spot is both within 6'' of the objective and the edge so it is a valid capture and ambush point for 1 minituare to get in. At least that is my opinion.

You are absolutely right about this. Even without the actual rules at hand, you provided an intuitive and elegant explanation to the problem. Another person voting you down without even discussing your argument shows that you left no real room for a counter argument. 

 

On 7/24/2020 at 2:35 PM, Third said:

Hi

I'm pretty sure I read a FAQ somewhere on this subject, but now I can't seem to find it.. 

If I ambush 6" from the table edge, can I capture an objective which is 12" from the table edge? To my knowledge, a single model can "make the distance" 🙂

Your intuition is correct. If an "Ambush" ability states that the unit has to be wholly within 6 inches of the battlefield edge, the following Designers' Commentary clarifies the meaning of it:

 

"[...]A: A model is wholly within a certain distance if every part of its base is within the stated distance[...]"

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf, page 3)

 

In combination with the quotation about "within" above we can see that "wholly within 6 inches of the battlefield edge" means that one point of the models circular base can be exactly 6 inches away from the battlefield edge. Lets put the model on a line with the objective and let the line be perpendicular to the battlefield edge. Since in your example the center of the objective is 12 inches away from the battlefield edge, it means that it is now exatly 6 inches away from the "6 inch point" of the models base we discussed beforehand. Since "exaclty 6 inches away" is included in "within 6 inches", the model is now within "capturing distance" of the objective.

I am sorry that multiple people were trying to tell you that you are wrong and did so without any backup from the rules. We should always be wary when people speak from intuition alone and fail or not even try to connect their statement with the actual rules of the game.

I hope my explanation is clear and that you can make use of this knowledge during your future games.

Edited by Isotop
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i would say yes, 1 miniature can be within 6'' of the objective and the edge, because the 6 belongs to both places there doesnt exist a space that separes both places, its like if you have a ruler       0 -------|------- 12      the | on the middle is 6'' and within 6 let you touch that | and that thing is also within 6'' of the objective, there is no imaginary space that separes that place.   The | spot is both within 6'' of the objective and the edge so it is a valid capture and ambush point for 1 minituare to get in. At least that is my opinion.

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42 minutes ago, jamie.white said:

No - you have to be within 6 of the objective . If you only move 6 you aren’t within 6 of the objective you are just outside 

Thing is, I'm not moving, I'm deploying within 6" of the table edge. 

Also, I was asking for a source or maybe for an FAQ, not for an answer. Thanks for it anyways though, I'll keep looking 🙂

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yes, it is possible.

But, holy ******, have fun figuring out the right point. thanks to circles on both sides I would think, that is impossible to finde the right spot. Also I would understand if your opponent would say "I dont think this model is in the right spot for holding that objective."

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1 hour ago, Isotop said:

 

You are wrong. "Within 6 inches" includes "6 inches away". Here is the relevant part from the Core Rules:

 

"[...]So, for example, a unit is within 12" of another unit as long as any model from one unit is 12" or less from any model from the other unit[...]"

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 2)

 

You are absolutely right about this. Even without the actual rules at hand, you provided an intuitive and elegant explanation to the problem. Another person voting you down without even discussing your argument shows that you left no real room for a counter argument. 

 

Your intuition is correct. If an "Ambush" ability states that the unit has to be wholly within 6 inches of the battlefield edge, the following Designers' Commentary clarifies the meaning of it:

 

"[...]A: A model is wholly within a certain distance if every part of its base is within the stated distance[...]"

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf, page 3)

 

In combination with the quotation about "within" above we can see that "wholly within 6 inches of the battlefield edge" means that one point of the models circular base can be exactly 6 inches away from the battlefield edge. Lets put the model on a line with the objective and let the line be perpendicular to the battlefield edge. Since in your example the center of the objective is 12 inches away from the battlefield edge, it means that it is now exatly 6 inches away from the "6 inch point" of the models base we discussed beforehand. Since "exaclty 6 inches away" is included in "within 6 inches", the model is now within "capturing distance" of the objective.

I am sorry that multiple people were trying to tell you that you are wrong and did so without any backup from the rules. We should always be wary when people speak from intuition alone and fail or not even try to connect their statement with the actual rules of the game.

I hope my explanation is clear and that you can make use of this knowledge during your future games.

Thank you!!!

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On 7/24/2020 at 2:35 PM, Third said:

If I ambush 6" from the table edge, can I capture an objective which is 12" from the table edge?

Ok, so @Third you have answer to your question.

Answer from @Isotop is that, yes,  you can. He put a lot of effort to to convince us. So let's say this is correct answer and look at what it imply. For me this is a correct answer only in an ideal world as it work only if all distance are exactly et precisly the maximum of what they could be.

So Objective need to be exactly at 12 of the table edge (not 12.00001 or it will not work)

Unit that ambush need to come exactly at 6 of the table edge (and not 5.999999 neither 6.000001) and with the nearest edge of 1 mini base exactly on the point were is crossing the "6' away from edge line" with "line that is connecting objective to table edge within 12" (there is only 1 point and you need to have the tip of your model base here, as base are round, if you are exactly at 6' from table edge but at 0.0001' away of this crossing line, you are no more withing 6' of the objectif).

For me this is not possible to achieve this in a real world with model and using tap mesuring tool.

Anyway, I agree that you could "state" it to force it to happened:

-> when placing objective on the table, be clear with your opponent: "this objective is exactly at 12" of table edge" (and at this moment, you opponent already understand what you'll intent to do ;) )

-> when you setup your ambush unit, be clear also: "this unit/mini is exactly at 6' from table edge and at 6' from objective"

If your opponent agree or does not complain about the 2 previous statement (which should be the case in most of FLGS), I'm with @Third, if your unit have a move of 6, it is possible to consider it beeing at 6' of the objective after move (obliviously if unit is able to go straig to the objective center without having to avoid any obstacle or deal with any relief).

Now, if you dont state and clearly say to your opponent when placing objectif and your unit that you intend to have them at this exact distance, for me this is not possible to achieve and I would not blame opponent to deny this if you didnt really clearly say for each or this steps that you intented to be here/at this distance.

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7 hours ago, Isotop said:

 

You are wrong. "Within 6 inches" includes "6 inches away". Here is the relevant part from the Core Rules:

 

"[...]So, for example, a unit is within 12" of another unit as long as any model from one unit is 12" or less from any model from the other unit[...]"

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 2)

 

You are absolutely right about this. Even without the actual rules at hand, you provided an intuitive and elegant explanation to the problem. Another person voting you down without even discussing your argument shows that you left no real room for a counter argument. 

 

Your intuition is correct. If an "Ambush" ability states that the unit has to be wholly within 6 inches of the battlefield edge, the following Designers' Commentary clarifies the meaning of it:

 

"[...]A: A model is wholly within a certain distance if every part of its base is within the stated distance[...]"

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf, page 3)

 

In combination with the quotation about "within" above we can see that "wholly within 6 inches of the battlefield edge" means that one point of the models circular base can be exactly 6 inches away from the battlefield edge. Lets put the model on a line with the objective and let the line be perpendicular to the battlefield edge. Since in your example the center of the objective is 12 inches away from the battlefield edge, it means that it is now exatly 6 inches away from the "6 inch point" of the models base we discussed beforehand. Since "exaclty 6 inches away" is included in "within 6 inches", the model is now within "capturing distance" of the objective.

I am sorry that multiple people were trying to tell you that you are wrong and did so without any backup from the rules. We should always be wary when people speak from intuition alone and fail or not even try to connect their statement with the actual rules of the game.

I hope my explanation is clear and that you can make use of this knowledge during your future games.

wow this one got hot, thanks for the cover!

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@jamie.white in full honnesty, I'm sure the rules for objectif and ambush are desgined this way with intend to make this case not allowed:

  • 12' of table edge for objectif
  • 6' for holding objectif
  • Ambush at 6' of table edge
  • Ambush ability happening at the end of movement phase to ensure you are not moving this turn

All this specific restriction "scream" to me that rules writers dont want people abusing of such mechanics and taking all objectif turn 1 or directly "holduping" rear table objectif in 1 turn like that, but working used (at 6' or less instead of less than 6' away from) let the door open.

If someone I'm playing against explain clarly what he is doing when seting up in a game like that, I think I would be OK. not such a big game changer and many faction (at least Stormcast, Sylvaneth and Nighthaunt) can setup on the table without any restriction regarding table edge distance or objectif distance...

...at least except if a FaQ state this is not allowed.

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45 minutes ago, Third said:

I'm not moving, I'm deploying within 6" of the table edge.

I guess that you have to deploy within 6" (so all point of the bases completly within 6" of table edge).

If objective is 12" of table edge, as said @jamie.white , your deployement will not allow you to be within the 6" of objective, you will be just outside. So except if you can move after (or charge) or have an ability allowing you to make a small move int the objective way, you'll have to wait for your next movement phase to be able to get into the objective (and I guess this is the whole intend of the rule).

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