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tripalreno4

So how does everyone feel about Age of Sigmar?

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What makes Cadia and all this planets so important? I'm starting war40k and I really like what I'm reading.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

I wonder what setting AoS replaced and is coming back I was referring to...

a setting that, let's be honest, was developed & made up and retconned numerous times over the course of decades, and still had ridiculously large gaps in it.

I love the old WHFB setting, I still engage with it all the time via WFRP but it wasn't some perfectly thought out thing that arrived on day 1 as a perfectly conceived concept with all its history and lore in place, as flawless as if it was communicated to Rick Priestly by god himself. and carved on tablets of stone, obsidian stele, a flaming book or some golden plates.

I mean ages ago I posted a picture of the map of the old world, released around the same point in time of WHFB as we are now into AoS and it was, let's say, still a work in progress... and then, just to take one small example, 20 or 30 years into the game they could barely figure out amongst themselves whether Albion, a country based on the place the people making the game actually lived in, was 1 island, several islands or even existed on maps.

Screenshot 2020-07-16 at 12.04.54.png

Edited by JPjr
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37 minutes ago, Grdaat said:
  1. At least then it would feel like there were actual stakes to a conflict.
  2. They don't really need to so long as they explain in-universe why Cadians act and are recognized as Cadians, and they did just that.
  3. That depends, while it's not often that it happens, there have been many characters killed off who were prominent in the lore, on the tabletop, or both. One of the biggest examples that comes to mind is Aun'Va.
  4. Because both Abaddon and Calgar can die permanently, the Celestant Prime and Lady Olynder cannot.
  1. Yes, it would be a score for books. It would also push many people out of AoS, because their faction was removed. I'd say the books matter less than the people.
  2. I don't know a lot about 40K. You might be correct. Still a missed opportunity for a line refresh.
  3. As said, I am not well versed in the lore, but in AoS, for non-seraphon, non-stormcast order and destruction, dead is dead, and even stormcast souls could be taken.
  4. They can get destroyed, it's just harder.
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also I should say that personally I don't think retcons are (necessarily) a bad thing. 

we're not dealing with the work of a singular auteur here*, we're working with multiple authors writing over several decades to accommodate the commercial whims of a toy company. things that make sense at some point won't at a later date, people will slip things in that seem innocuous that in later times might have massive** ramifications or you know be a bit 😬 when viewed through today's lens and need excising.

there will be good writers and bad writers and it's a constant process of editing and tidying that work, and if something doesn't fit or work and something more interesting can be done without upsetting the entire apple cart then why not. as I said it's not an allegedly infallible  religious text it's some background to why this little plastic soldier is trying to kill this little plastic soldier.

like statues of racist men if bits of lore are no longer relevant or useful to us today then tear it down, future generations can rebuild it if they so want.

 

 

 

*and even then look at Tolkien's Legendarium, one of the most researched and thought out fantasy universes, he was editing, revising & changing stuff he'd written decades before right up to his death.

** relatively speaking, of course

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8 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Do you think the Celestant Prime and Olynder can permanently die? If so I've got some news for you about the battle that happened right before Katakros was released, as well as the end fight of Wrath of the Everchosen...

Also if you think that I haven't read the lore then you haven't read the thread.

EDIT: It's also very poor form to accuse somebody else of not knowing the lore, right after you say that Terra in 40k is a replaceable planet, and that it wouldn't matter if it was destroyed.

Ironically on the 40k lore reddit people feel the opposite, 40k lore is going downhill while it's the opposite for AOS. In my opinion the lore was changed to give the writers a wider space to add or change things. In fantasy nothing changed.  While here, cities can rise and fall, factions can win or lose without the setting being destroyed. People can enjoy their faction being in the sun for a moment, you gave an example the celestant prime vs Olynder.

Those sorts of conflicts is what people largely care about, at the moment from my perspective in the 40k lore reddit people are tired of factions getting slapped by the space marines.  Hence why many dislike the psychic awakening. 

Now, to go back to a previous point. It wouldn't be the end of the setting if Terra fell, why? Because they would be forced to adapt.  Half of the Imperium does not actually have any access to astronomicon, yet the setting still carries on. Those in nihilus now make multiple small jumps instead of large ones. The setting is large enough to allow such changes. 

Many felt before the fall of cadia that if chaos gets past it they will overrun the galaxy, but guess what? The opposite happened, they got blunted pretty quickly so the setting can carry on as I said.  

So your argument to me is falling flat on it's face. To me the point of making AOS larger is to allow more room for "your dudes" instead of being the stooge of a elector count or one of the many characters. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, JPjr said:

a setting that, let's be honest, was developed & made up and retconned numerous times over the course of decades, and still had ridiculously large gaps in it.

I love the old WHFB setting, I still engage with it all the time via WFRP but it wasn't some perfectly thought out thing that arrived on day 1 as a perfectly conceived concept with all its history and lore in place, as flawless as if it was communicated to Rick Priestly by god himself. and carved on tablets of stone, obsidian stele, a flaming book or some golden plates.

I mean ages ago I posted a picture of the map of the old world, released around the same point in time of WHFB as we are now into AoS and it was, let's say, still a work in progress... and then, just to take one small example, 20 or 30 years into the game they could barely figure out amongst themselves whether Albion, a country based on the place the people making the game actually lived in, was 1 island, several islands or even existed on maps.

Screenshot 2020-07-16 at 12.04.54.png

I never said it was perfect, just that it was fleshed out. I also never said that it was immediately fleshed out or that it didn't have retcons along the way, it obviously did, but the holes in the setting were patched up (until 8th edition and End Times anyway) and the writers didn't approach it with the intention of leaving everything as vague as possible so that they could have all the freedom in the world.

Even that map you link shows more effort to flesh out the setting than anything in current AoS because it's trying to show you the full scale of the setting, and making it clear that this is it. AoS has only recently started to include maps, but even then they're only for small portions within it.

What I'm really hoping for is that AoS continues to add maps to the setting to show us what's going on within it, showing us something like the surroundings of Hammerhal it and why that place can't be replaced if it's destroyed would be a great step forward in terms of investment and world building.

9 hours ago, JPjr said:

also I should say that personally I don't think retcons are (necessarily) a bad thing. 

we're not dealing with the work of a singular auteur here*, we're working with multiple authors writing over several decades to accommodate the commercial whims of a toy company. things that make sense at some point won't at a later date, people will slip things in that seem innocuous that in later times might have massive** ramifications or you know be a bit 😬 when viewed through today's lens and need excising.

there will be good writers and bad writers and it's a constant process of editing and tidying that work, and if something doesn't fit or work and something more interesting can be done without upsetting the entire apple cart then why not. as I said it's not an allegedly infallible  religious text it's some background to why this little plastic soldier is trying to kill this little plastic soldier.

like statues of racist men if bits of lore are no longer relevant or useful to us today then tear it down, future generations can rebuild it if they so want.

*And even then look at Tolkien's Legendarium, one of the most researched and thought out fantasy universes, he was editing, revising & changing stuff he'd written decades before right up to his death.

** relatively speaking, of course

Retcons are going to happen, but as I said before, I'm surprised at the speed they're happening. Retcons in Fantasy were usually separated by 4-8 years, which is enough to gather feedback on what worked and what didn't. AoS seems to think that if it stops putting out constant content it'll shrivel up and die.

9 hours ago, Beliman said:

What makes Cadia and all this planets so important? I'm starting war40k and I really like what I'm reading.

Cadia was essential in preventing the warp from overtaking large parts of the galaxy, and without Terra humanity has no access to relatively safe FTL travel.

1 hour ago, shinros said:

Ironically on the 40k lore reddit people feel the opposite, 40k lore is going downhill while it's the opposite for AOS. In my opinion the lore was changed to give the writers a wider space to add or change things. In fantasy nothing changed.  While here, cities can rise and fall, factions can win or lose without the setting being destroyed. People can enjoy their faction being in the sun for a moment, you gave an example the celestant prime vs Olynder.

Except things did change in Fantasy, cities fell, Bugman lost his brewery, characters got killed. Why care about that sort of conflict in AoS when it leads nowhere and doesn't matter?

Quote

Those sorts of conflicts is what people largely care about, at the moment from my perspective in the 40k lore reddit people are tired of factions getting slapped by the space marines.  Hence why many dislike the psychic awakening.

Now, to go back to a previous point. It wouldn't be the end of the setting if Terra fell-

Hold the phone, I never said it would end the setting, just the Imperium.

Quote

why? Because they would be forced to adapt.  Half of the Imperium does not actually have any access to astronomicon, yet the setting still carries on. Those in nihilus now make multiple small jumps instead of large ones. The setting is large enough to allow such changes. 

And they still export their Psykers because without the Emperor, they'd be vulnerable to outside influence. Daemonic invasion, Enslavers, that sort of thing and given how many Psykers are appearing right now, it would be an attack from all angles that the Imperium would not survive.

Hell, the Enslavers on their own could wreck the vast majority of it if there was nobody to alter the weaker Psykers.

Also there are still types of Astronomicon beacons in the Dark Imperium that act as a sort of booster for the Emperor. There was even an Alpha Legion book where they were trying to find it, alongside the other Chaos Space Marines.

Quote

Many felt before the fall of cadia that if chaos gets past it they will overrun the galaxy, but guess what? The opposite happened, they got blunted pretty quickly so the setting can carry on as I said.  

Do you think they're not still running rampant? They are, the only things that set them back a little bit was the Primaris Marines, Guilliman and the Custodes finally coming out. Without those (and Guilliman's crusade) that would've been it.

Quote

So your argument to me is falling flat on it's face. To me the point of making AOS larger is to allow more room for "your dudes" instead of being the stooge of a elector count or one of the many characters. 

Firstly I'd suggest you do more reading on why the Imperium needs the Emperor, and secondly AoS has an odd identity crises where it wants to be about the player's armies, but at the same time keeps changing its mind to go back to its standby heroes. It also doesn't help that they keep doing timeskips and seem to avoid any cohesive timeline like it's a plague.

I will say that I do love the idea of making armies that play off the existing ones in the setting, but that's yet another thing AoS needs to flesh out more. The current rules make it hard to personalize your army and the new build-a-character rules were just disappointing.

Edited by Grdaat
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5 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Cadia was essential in preventing the warp from overtaking large parts of the galaxy, and without Terra humanity has no access to relatively safe FTL travel.

But this doesn't make Cadia more special than, for ex.,  Excelsis.

If Excelsis falls under Gordrakk, Azyr will be in danger and it's one of the biggest cities in Ghur with a giant splinter of Malus, even Tzeentch is a bit worried about that.

I know that 40k has a lot of books and codex to support Cadia (I bought  the Dark Eldar trilogy two days ago btw, realy excited to read it!),  but let's be honest here, Excelsis is 3 years old  with just a few notes in some battletomes and (I think) 2 books. It's not even fair to compare them.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Cadia was essential in preventing the warp from overtaking large parts of the galaxy, and without Terra humanity has no access to relatively safe FTL travel.

Er what? So far in the books and supplement material the only people who are having trouble travelling is Imperium Nihilus who don't have access to the astronomicon.  

At the moment the Cadian system has been fortified and has turned into another warzone where chaos and the Imperium are slapping each other again and warbands have essentially broken off to raid worlds. In way NOTHING has changed. I also hold the opinion GW are doing nothing with Nihilus or the tear since now, according to vigilus and other material there are stable routes to get to the other side of the rift. 

War of the Spider:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/12/war-zone-cadiagw-homepage-post-2/

Start of 8th:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/06/new-warhammer-40000-war-zone-cadia-may6gw-homepage-post-4/

Quote

Except things did change in Fantasy, cities fell, Bugman lost his brewery, characters got killed. Why care about that sort of conflict in AoS when it leads nowhere and doesn't matter?

Okay what cities fell, then what happened? Has chaos taken over the land of an elector count and held it? Has the vampire counts ever amounted to anything than making mean faces at the empire? Had the dark elves ever taken a portion of Ulthaun and held it? Forcing the High elves to turn to allies for help? Have we ever seen a lizardman waging war in the empire? Have we ever seen the Tomb Kings invading anywhere important other than protecting their tombs? I could go on. 

While is AOS, we have this happening. Different armies face each other, each alliance have great wins and permanent losses since the realm-gate wars. Each faction gets their time in the sun and also allows a player to have "your dudes" easily fit into the setting. Ironjaws have taken back the Ghur allgate, pushing back both Chaos and making an enemy of Sigmar. Archaon held the realm of metal realmgate, while also killing a recurring character from the novels, Sigmar has basically taken Ashqy by storm. While Death have essentially taken back their allgate and made a beachhead for further invasions within the allpoints itself (chaos waste equivalent). Something Sigmar hasn't done. Those are some of the tangible events I listed off my head. 

Quote

 

And they still export their Psykers because without the Emperor, they'd be vulnerable to outside influence. Daemonic invasion, Enslavers, that sort of thing and given how many Psykers are appearing right now, it would be an attack from all angles that the Imperium would not survive.

Hell, the Enslavers on their own could wreck the vast majority of it if there was nobody to alter the weaker Psykers.

Also there are still types of Astronomicon beacons in the Dark Imperium that act as a sort of booster for the Emperor. There was even an Alpha Legion book where they were trying to find it, alongside the other Chaos Space Marines.

 

According to Blood of Baal psychic awakening, the blood angels are handling the training of Psykers since they cannot easily access the Black Ships due to the rifts. Of course people are exploding. Enslavers haven't been relevant in years, don't see the point of addressing that. 

Commonly across most material, sections of Imperium Nihilus have banded together and make small jumps because most navigators cannot see the light provided by the Astronomicon. 

Quote

Do you think they're not still running rampant? They are, the only things that set them back a little bit was the Primaris Marines, Guilliman and the Custodes finally coming out. Without those (and Guilliman's crusade) that would've been it.

I'll reference my previous point again, according to warzone cadia warbands are still just raiding. Chaos is still throwing itself at the "new" wall in the warzone. Where is this massive chaos offensive by the traitor legions overrunning the galaxy and getting to terra? Seems to be GW is focusing on the Tyranids heading to terra according to psychic awakening Pariah. So what exactly are chaos doing save for that last warzone on Vigilus where Abbadon couldn't properly handle even Calgar? 

[Watch station Hadrax-3-7, Sol System southern border-sector 64/H]

"But now… Throne, I do not know how to describe what we are seeing. Xenos craft… living xenos craft, vast leviathans of the deep void are spilling like vomit from the storm’s maw. The stuff of the warp clings to their hides then tatters away as though it cannot touch them. Tendrils writhe in the dark of space. Compound eyes glitter, impervious to the killing cold of space. They have… scented us, I think. They swarm closer by the hour, and I am not fool enough to believe beasts so nightmarish could be benign. What is, in this damned galaxy? Please, for the love of the Emperor, if anyone receives this be advised, there are hundreds of these living ships, maybe thousands, and they are pushing for the Sol Sector. Emperor save us all."

Quote

 

Firstly I'd suggest you do more reading on why the Imperium needs the Emperor, and secondly AoS has an odd identity crises where it wants to be about the player's armies, but at the same time keeps changing its mind to go back to its standby heroes. It also doesn't help that they keep doing timeskips and seem to avoid any cohesive timeline like it's a plague.

I will say that I do love the idea of making armies that play off the existing ones in the setting, but that's yet another thing AoS needs to flesh out more. The current rules make it hard to personalize your army and the new build-a-character rules were just disappointing.

 

Seems Nihilus is surviving just fine without being able to truly see the Emperor's light, perhaps if Terra falls to the Tyranids we might actually get some tangible grim darkness into the setting again. (I doubt it, Tyranids constantly lose.)

On AOS, it's both. That's what I like about it. You may not obviously, I like that they do both because there are players who care more about what the armies are doing than what Nagash or whatever Sigmar is planning. On the Timeline, I view it in the case of mythology, there are significant events within the Age of Myth, Chaos and now Sigmar. Players can follow those events within the age or play out the battles. Timeline's can also constrain things as well, look at 40k. At the start of 8th we were beyond the Idomintus crusade, then suddenly with PA they went back before the crusade and now 9th? We are actually going back to see the Idomintus crusade.

The setting that you hold in high regard, can't seem to settle on a time either. It's actually a complaint of many on bolter and chainsword. Hence why I prefer how AOS does it. Anyway, I know you will respectfully disagree so how about we leave it that? 

Edited by shinros
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10 minutes ago, Beliman said:

But this doesn't make Cadia more special than, for ex.,  Excelsis.

If Excelsis falls under Gordrakk, Azyr will be in danger and it's one of the biggest cities in Ghur with a giant splinter of Malus, even Tzeentch is a bit worried about that.

I know that 40k has a lot of books and codex to support Cadia (I bought  the Dark Eldar trilogy two days ago btw, realy excited to read it!),  but let's be honest here, Excelsis is 3 years old  with just a few notes in some battletomes and (I think) 2 books. It's not even fair to compare them.

Hey, there's the kind of stakes I was looking for. I wouldn't say that they're on the same level, since as soon as Cadia fell the galaxy was ripped in half, but at least that's something.

As far as establishing them goes, Cadia was established with less time in it's existence compared to Excelsis, so I think it's fair to compare them.

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12 minutes ago, Beliman said:

But this doesn't make Cadia more special than, for ex.,  Excelsis.

If Excelsis falls under Gordrakk, Azyr will be in danger and it's one of the biggest cities in Ghur with a giant splinter of Malus, even Tzeentch is a bit worried about that.

I know that 40k has a lot of books and codex to support Cadia (I bought  the Dark Eldar trilogy two days ago btw, realy excited to read it!),  but let's be honest here, Excelsis is 3 years old  with just a few notes in some battletomes and (I think) 2 books. It's not even fair to compare them.

Despite that Excelsis is one of my favorite cities and it's way too possible that it might go under. Which has me both fearful but excited as it could mean a new global campaign again to decide it's fate.

It's got such great lore and descriptions like it's connections to the spider plantation forts (Callis and Toll books) to supply it's soldiers with steelsilk chainmail, the glimmering currency being a huge part of the economy in both pay and use of prophecy for job efficiency like helping sailors get monstrous catches, the great expedition fighting force at it's disposal despite being a comparative backwater city in a mineral starved realm(20 Steamtanks!),  having my bois the Knights Excelsiors and the White Reaper who puts fear into even undead and just such fun looks at life in Ghur like the harbors made if leather, dung and leviathan bones.

It's advancement in the Age of Intrigue with the construction of skyports for needed Kharadron trade, trade routes to the mobile Crawling City which has become a booming cosmopolitan city after a century being freed from chaos and how the Excelsiors stepped up defenses against Tzeentch by creating force fields that fry the unholy(or just unlucky merchants who get greedy) and there's a ton there to look forward to in it being our big steps into the Realm of Beast being explored with both campaigns and rpg's.

So ever since Gordrakk put his eyes on it I've been on Grindworm pins and needles. xD

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7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Er what? So far in the books and supplement material the only people who are having trouble travelling is Imperium Nihilus who don't have access to the astronomicon.  

Yes, because the Astronomicon is on Terra, no Terra, no Astronomicon at all.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

At the moment the Cadian system has been fortified and has turned into another warzone where chaos and the Imperium are slapping each other again and warbands have essentially broken off to raid worlds. In way NOTHING has changed. I also hold the opinion GW are doing nothing with Nihilus or the tear since now, according to vigilus and other material there are stable routes to get to the other side of the rift. 

Because of the emergence of the previous three players and Crusade I'd just mentioned.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Look up Storm of Chaos.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Has chaos taken over the land of an elector count and held it? 

Yes.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Has the vampire counts ever amounted to anything than making mean faces at the empire?

Yes.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Had the dark elves ever taken a portion of Ulthaun and held it? Forcing the High elves to turn to allies for help? Have we ever seen a lizardman waging war in the empire? Have we ever seen the Tomb Kings invading anywhere important other than protecting their tombs? I could go on. 

There are entire novels that go into those sorts of details if you'd like to look them up.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

While is AOS, we have this happening. Different armies face each other, each alliance have great wins and permanent losses since the realm-gate wars. Each faction gets their time in the sun and also allows a player to have "your dudes" easily fit into the setting. Ironjaws have taken back the Ghur allgate, pushing back both Chaos and making an enemy of Sigmar. Archaon held the realm of metal realmgate, while also killing a recurring character from the novels, Sigmar has basically taken Ashqy by storm. While Death have essentially taken back their allgate and made a beachhead for further invasions within the allpoints itself (chaos waste equivalent). Something Sigmar hasn't done. Those are some of the tangible events I listed off my head. 

Those would be tangible if they needed those specific Realmgates to travel when the Seraphon have shown us you do not. 

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

According to Blood of Baal psychic awakening, the blood angels are handling the training of Psykers since they cannot easily access the Black Ships due to the rifts. Of course people are exploding. Enslavers haven't been relevant in years, don't see the point of addressing that. 

Cannot easily access them does not mean they cannot access them, and Enslavers are still around, saying they're not relevant is just trying to pretend they don't exist.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Commonly across most material, sections of Imperium Nihilus have banded together and make small jumps because most navigators cannot see the light provided by the Astronomicon. 

And they're much more vulnerable while doing this.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

I'll reference my previous point again, according to warzone cadia warbands are still just raiding. Chaos is still throwing itself at the "new" wall in the warzone. Where is this massive chaos offensive by the traitor legions overrunning the galaxy and getting to terra?

Read the Gathering Storm, you see it in there and also see how without the combined efforts of the Imperium and Eldar that they would've permanently killed Guilliman, Cawl, and made very short work of Ultramar and the wider Imperium.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

Seems to be GW is focusing on the Tyranids heading to terra according to psychic awakening Pariah. So what exactly are chaos doing save for that last warzone on Vigilus where Abbadon couldn't properly handle even Calgar? 

He did handle Calgar, have you read it?

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

[Watch station Hadrax-3-7, Sol System southern border-sector 64/H]

"But now… Throne, I do not know how to describe what we are seeing. Xenos craft… living xenos craft, vast leviathans of the deep void are spilling like vomit from the storm’s maw. The stuff of the warp clings to their hides then tatters away as though it cannot touch them. Tendrils writhe in the dark of space. Compound eyes glitter, impervious to the killing cold of space. They have… scented us, I think. They swarm closer by the hour, and I am not fool enough to believe beasts so nightmarish could be benign. What is, in this damned galaxy? Please, for the love of the Emperor, if anyone receives this be advised, there are hundreds of these living ships, maybe thousands, and they are pushing for the Sol Sector. Emperor save us all."

Seems Nihilus is surviving just fine without being able to truly see the Emperor's light, perhaps if Terra falls to the Tyranids we might actually get some tangible grim darkness into the setting again. (I doubt it, Tyranids constantly lose.)

Is that why there's reports of planets falling and fleets going missing? Not exactly what I'd call "doing fine" when their existence is a struggle.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

On AOS, it's both. That's what I like about it. You may not obviously, I like that they do both because there are players who care more about what the armies are doing than what Nagash or whatever Sigmar is planning. On the Timeline, I view it in the case of mythology, there are significant events within the Age of Myth, Chaos and now Sigmar. Players can follow those events within the age or play out the battles. Timeline's can also constrain things as well, look at 40k. At the start of 8th we were beyond the Idomintus crusade, then suddenly with PA they went back before the crusade and now 9th? We are actually going back to see the Idomintus crusade.

What's wrong with exploring a timeline? It helps show how everything is connected and give you a better picture of the setting as a whole, not to mention it catalogues the setting's best triumphs and losses without making the player look for those themselves.

7 minutes ago, shinros said:

The setting that you hold in high regard, can't seem to settle on a time either. It's actually a complaint of many on bolter and chainsword. Hence why I prefer how AOS does it. Anyway, I know you will respectfully disagree so how about we leave it that? 

So because GW retcons stuff, you'd rather have nothing be set in stone? I guess that's an opinion, it's just not one I share.

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23 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Yes, because the Astronomicon is on Terra, no Terra, no Astronomicon at all.

Because of the emergence of the previous three players and Crusade I'd just mentioned.

Look up Storm of Chaos.

Yes.

Yes.

There are entire novels that go into those sorts of details if you'd like to look them up.

Those would be tangible if they needed those specific Realmgates to travel when the Seraphon have shown us you do not. 

Cannot easily access them does not mean they cannot access them, and Enslavers are still around, saying they're not relevant is just trying to pretend they don't exist.

And they're much more vulnerable while doing this.

Read the Gathering Storm, you see it in there and also see how without the combined efforts of the Imperium and Eldar that they would've permanently killed Guilliman, Cawl, and made very short work of Ultramar and the wider Imperium.

He did handle Calgar, have you read it?

Is that why there's reports of planets falling and fleets going missing? Not exactly what I'd call "doing fine" when their existence is a struggle.

What's wrong with exploring a timeline? It helps show how everything is connected and give you a better picture of the setting as a whole, not to mention it catalogues the setting's best triumphs and losses without making the player look for those themselves.

So because GW retcons stuff, you'd rather have nothing be set in stone? I guess that's an opinion, it's just not one I share.

Storm of chaos got retconned. It doesn't matter, because GW weren't happy that chaos didn't win. 

Edit:Calgar should of been killed in that encounter, but because he has a shiny new model that didn't happen. Also the vengeful spirit got damaged(almost destroyed) by Aeldari. Forcing Abbadon to leave and in the end the imperials retook the skies above vigilus. Making another invasion more difficult.  Calgar is now recovering in an apothecary tent, directing the war from afar. WOW such a great victory for chaos! Man Chaos had an amazing outcome for their model debut! Here's a new wazone to have Abbadon slam his face in for several years like cadia! Let's be real Calgar is not going to be in that bed for long. 

This whole post shows me you haven't actually read anything properly like Ninth said including whfb. I think we're done. Also nothing tangible happens in WHFB books, they normally preserve the status quo if you actually read them or they tell the history of a character.  If you can point to somewhere on the map where Chaos or Vampire counts have taken something over within the empire I'll rescind my post. I'll wait. Give me something in the current timeline when Karl Franz was ruling. 

Edited by shinros

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2 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Hey, there's the kind of stakes I was looking for. I wouldn't say that they're on the same level, since as soon as Cadia fell the galaxy was ripped in half, but at least that's something.

As far as establishing them goes, Cadia was established with less time in it's existence compared to Excelsis, so I think it's fair to compare them.

Well, we don't know what happens if Excelsis falls.

But if we just look for power-level disasters that changed the setting or the whole game... I think that End Times beats everything followed by Age of Chaos and maybe Horus Heresy and the Fall.

I don't see too much diference, just time to develop the setting.

Btw, I think that we are going in circles and I can't see what you want accomplish with all this posts.

I don't know what to say and whatever I say, I know what you will answer.

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7 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Well, we don't know what happens if Excelsis falls.

But if we just look for power-level disasters that changed the setting or the whole game... I think that End Times beats everything followed by Age of Chaos and maybe Horus Heresy and the Fall.

I don't see too much diference, just time to develop the setting.

Btw, I think that we are going in circles and I can't see what you want accomplish with all this posts.

I don't know what to say and whatever I say, I know what you will answer.

Most of the time in debates one side never relents, but the onlookers might change their minds. 

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23 minutes ago, shinros said:

Storm of chaos got retconned. It doesn't matter, because GW weren't happy that chaos didn't win. 

Nice shifting the goalposts. You asked if something happened and are now pretending it didn't matter. By that metric does the End Times no longer matter because AoS retconned many of the elements inside of it?

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

Edit:Calgar should of been killed in that encounter, but because he has a shiny new model that didn't happen.

Actually he didn't die because of previously established lore that was in place for a while before that fight and which Abaddon likely wasn't aware of.

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

Also the vengeful spirit got damaged(almost destroyed) by Aeldari. Forcing Abbadon to leave and in the end the imperials retook the skies above vigilus. Making another invasion more difficult.  Calgar is now recovering in an apothecary tent, directing the war from afar. WOW such a great victory for chaos! Man Chaos had an amazing outcome for their model debut! Here's a new wazone to have Abbadon slam his face in for several years like cadia! Let's be real Calgar is not going to be in that bed for long. 

Why do you think that was supposed to be a Chaos victory?

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

This whole post shows me you haven't actually read anything properly like Ninth said including whfb. I think we're done.

You're disregarding the past, ignoring what was established and asking questions that are directly answered in the works I mentioned, and you have the gall to say I didn't read the lore?

Read the lore first, then come back here, unless you wish to join NinthMusketeer in claiming that Terra is an unimportant location.

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

Also nothing tangible happens in WHFB books, they normally preserve the status quo if you actually read them or they tell the history of a character. 

Just like what happened with Gorbad Ironclaw- oh wait. Well at least we have a fun backstory with Gorfang Rotgut- oh wait no. Well I'm sure Bugman's Brewery has a treasured history- oh whoops. Well at least we can turn to the minor Empire provinces like Sylvania to see- oh no, not there too! Well at least the Empire capital of Nuln will be untouched- oh damn, not even that!

Nothing tangible happens my ass.

23 minutes ago, shinros said:

If you can point to somewhere on the map where Chaos or Vampire counts have taken something over within the empire I'll rescind my post. I'll wait. Give me something in the current timeline when Karl Franz was ruling. 

Brass Keep (Chaos), Castle Templehoff (Vampires) Castle Drakenhoff (Vampires). There were attempts to fight them off while Franz ruled, but they ended in failure, with the last one ending with the capture of Volkmar the Grim in 8th edition.

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13 minutes ago, shinros said:

Most of the time in debates one side never relents, but the onlookers might change their minds. 

That's the main thing in spite of the tiresome circles. 

And sometimes you get really great info posts like with MaatithoftheBrand's useful posts on stuff that taught me about the Starborne Seraphon essence I didn't know before. Really made yesterday worth it despite the time sink in posts. xD

Regardless it's best to just drop it. These huge threads are turn offs to onlookers because they know wall texts await.

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26 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Well, we don't know what happens if Excelsis falls.

But if we just look for power-level disasters that changed the setting or the whole game... I think that End Times beats everything followed by Age of Chaos and maybe Horus Heresy and the Fall.

I don't see too much diference, just time to develop the setting.

Btw, I think that we are going in circles and I can't see what you want accomplish with all this posts.

I don't know what to say and whatever I say, I know what you will answer.

The only thing I'm trying to accomplish is having a discussion about what people like in the setting and how they feel about it.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Nice shifting the goalposts. You asked if something happened and are now pretending it didn't matter. By that metric does the End Times no longer matter because AoS retconned many of the elements inside of it?

Actually he didn't die because of previously established lore that was in place for a while before that fight and which Abaddon likely wasn't aware of.

Why do you think that was supposed to be a Chaos victory?

You're disregarding the past, ignoring what was established and asking questions that are directly answered in the works I mentioned, and you have the gall to say I didn't read the lore?

Read the lore first, then come back here, unless you wish to join NinthMusketeer in claiming that Terra is an unimportant location.

Just like what happened with Gorbad Ironclaw- oh wait. Well at least we have a fun backstory with Gorfang Rotgut- oh wait no. Well I'm sure Bugman's Brewery has a treasured history- oh whoops. Well at least we can turn to the minor Empire provinces like Sylvania to see- oh no, not there too! Well at least the Empire capital of Nuln will be untouched- oh damn, not even that!

Nothing tangible happens my ass.

Brass Keep (Chaos), Castle Templehoff (Vampires) Castle Drakenhoff (Vampires). There were attempts to fight them off while Franz ruled, but they ended in failure, with the last one ending with the capture of Volkmar the Grim in 8th edition.

Storm of chaos doesn't matter, I would agree with you if GW actually kept it. I'm not moving the goal posts. Nothing tangible came from the storm of chaos because it was retconned into oblivion because GW didn't like the outcome. 

Oh right so basically the same places that maintained the status quo for several years? Man Vampires are doing awesome just holding sylvania for several long years. As a vampire count player it would be nice to play a campaign where the vampires take over a portion of the empire than shaking their fists from sylvania. Wonder when they will completely capture stirland? Well, the world exploded who knows. It's great that you're referencing events from the past where they don't actually matter. Great job. Nice. 

I mean for example nothing really happened to Gorfang until the end times when they were moving to AOS. Man Gorbad did a smashing job against the empire! Until he died and failed in his conquest. I'm sure an event occuring in 1707-1712 IC  is quite relevant to what's happening in 8th edition and the world at large.

Bugman? Hmm we could of really used a campaign book there, would of been nice that in his vengeance the dwarfs would take back several holds. But they have to keep him on his revenge quest with a small group of rangers until he suddenly appears in end times. 

Also I wonder when it comes to the Brass Keep when do you think chaos is going to get around to actually touching Hochland, middenheim or Ostland? You know, like taking it over? Middenheim would be crazy considering their defensive location! But it seems the lore is content with having the warriors of chaos sit there and repelling invaders from a derelict fortress. 

And to let you know 8th was a set up for end times according to several sources and the writers.  That's why the events like volkmar the grim being captured was part of 8th edition. Come on mate, it's widely known that in whfb nothing changed. 

I mean we can talk about Nuln. It is still overrun by skaven right? I'm sure they didn't get any help from a dynamic duo to keep it from falling. Man, it would of been awesome to see Nuln destroyed and converted into a skaven city. Think of the stories that could of happened! Skaven, right there next to reikland! But we can't have that! Nuln survived and is rebuilding!

Books, especially ones from black library tell you about the location, the character and how they got there. They talk about the history of important locations. Whenever said locations are being written about in the current timeline they are normally always preserved in the end, why? Because the black Library writers aren't allowed to touch the status quo. This is a known fact. This whole movement of the storyline within the setting and making tangible changes in the setting is more of a recent phenomenon for 40k and AOS. 

There are plenty of interviews where they outright say, full on the setting for whfb is static and why they like writing for AOS because they can tell their own stories freely. I agree with them considering my time with the setting for 12+ years. 

Also if it's not clear I'm being quite sarcastic in sections of this post. 

At the end of the day the reason WHY some people loved whfb so much because it DOESN'T change. Some people see it as a historical setting than one that constantly flows and changes. I'm going to keep my opinion thank you.  I also still agree with ninth by the way. 

52 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

 

That's the main thing in spite of the tiresome circles. 

And sometimes you get really great info posts like with MaatithoftheBrand's useful posts on stuff that taught me about the Starborne Seraphon essence I didn't know before. Really made yesterday worth it despite the time sink in posts. xD

Regardless it's best to just drop it. These huge threads are turn offs to onlookers because they know wall texts await.

Oh you get those, anyway. I made my last post on this matter anyway.

Edited by shinros
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1 minute ago, shinros said:

Storm of chaos doesn't matter, I would agree with you if GW actually kept it. I'm not moving the goal posts. Nothing tangible came from the storm of chaos because it was retconned into oblivion because GW didn't like the outcome. 

You didn't specify which timeline you would or wouldn't accept, Storm of Chaos was canon for over half a decade before they went back on it and it's an example of how the setting did change. Even without it we have plotlines like vampires kidnapping the Everqueen's daughter and nearly starting a war between the Dwarfs and Elves when a team up between the two failed to rescue her.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Oh right so basically the same places that maintained the status quo for several years? Man Vampires are doing awesome just holding sylvania for several long years.

Except they were driven out of them and killed. Them returning was a major plot point, and the focus of an entire campaign which the Empire (in Franz's time) lost.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

As a vampire count player it would be nice to play a campaign where the vampires take over a portion of the empire than shaking their fists from sylvania.

Already happened, play Sigmar's Blood.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Wonder when they will completely capture stirland? Well, the world exploded who knows. It's great that you're referencing events from the past where they don't actually matter. Great job. Nice. 

You asked me to do that, or did you forget?

You said you'd rescind your posts if I gave you the examples you wanted, and now that I have you say they don't matter because they're from 8th edition WHFB and it's in the past. Since you haven't rescinded your posts I'm going to call you a liar.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

I mean for example nothing really happened to Gorfang until the end times when they were moving to AOS. Man Gorbad did a smashing job against the empire! Until he died and failed in his conquest. I'm sure an event occuring in 1707 IC  is quite relevant to what's happening in 8th edition and the world at large.

What are you talking about? Gorfang was killed by Thorgrim way before the End Times in a novella called Thorgrim. He was also a major character in the setting, without him Black Crag is open to invasion, the Badlands are exposed, Skarsnik loses any hope of Orc reinforcements and it turns the conquest of Karak Eight Peaks from a contested fight to a heavily Dwarf favoured engagement.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Bugman? Hmm we could of really used a campaign book there, would of been nice that in his vengeance the dwarfs would take back several holds. But they have to keep him on his revenge quest with a small group of rangers until he suddenly appears in end times. 

There was a campaign, it happened in the White Dwarfs and the outcome was based off of Battle results players sent in.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Also I wonder when it comes to the Brass Keep when do you think chaos is going to get around to actually touching Hochland, middenheim or Ostland? You know, like taking it over?

Do you think they don't invade them? Because there's novels on that sort of thing and how they're repulsed or why they leave/crumble.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Middenheim would be crazy considering their defensive location! But it seems the lore is content with having the warriors of chaos sit there and repelling invaders from a derelict fortress. 

Because Brass Keep is a defensive location, they need to wait for new armies before striking out. It isn't a nation unto itself. Also Middenheim didn't fall before precisely because it's a heavily defended location.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

And to let you know 8th was a set up for end times according to several sources and the writers.  That's why the events like volkmar the grim being captured was part of 8th edition. Come on mate, it's widely known that in whfb nothing changed. 

How can you say nothing changed while directly listing an example of it changing?

1 minute ago, shinros said:

I mean we can talk about Nuln. It is still overrun by skaven right?

No.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

I'm sure they didn't get any help from a dynamic duo to keep it from falling. Man, it would of been awesome to see Nuln destroyed and converted into a skaven city. Think of the stories that could of happened! Skaven, right there next to reikland! But we can't have that! Nuln survived and is rebuilding!

Except Nuln was ruined several times in the lore and the only reason it's around is because of the sentimental value of the place. Had it not been the birthplace of Magnus and former capital of the Empire, it would've been abandoned after Grom ran a train through it.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Books, especially ones from black library tell you about the location, the character and how they got there. They talk about the history of important locations. Whenever said locations are being written about in the current timeline they are normally always preserved in the end, why? Because the black Library writers aren't allowed to touch the status quo. This is a known fact.

That's why Gorfang survived the books- oh wait no. Well that's why the Orcs still have the Solland Runefang- oh wait.

You say it's a known fact, but it wasn't as far as WHFB was concerned.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

This whole movement of the storyline within the setting and making tangible changes in the setting is more of a recent phenomenon for 40k and AOS. 

Not really, I don't recall a Fantasy edition where the story didn't change or move forward.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

There are plenty of interviews where they outright say, full on the setting for whfb is static and why they like writing for AOS because they can tell their own stories freely. I agree with them considering my time with the setting for 12+ years. 

You must not have gotten that into it then, seeing as how you keep asking questioned that have easy answers or saying stuff that isn't true.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Also if it's not clear I'm being quite sarcastic in sections of this post. 

I figured, but I might as well address them anyway.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

At the end of the day the reason WHY some people loved whfb so much because it DOESN'T change. Some people see it as a historical setting than one that constantly flows and changes. I'm going to keep my opinion thank you. 

Anyone who's convinced WHFB didn't change is someone who didn't look further than the covers.

1 minute ago, shinros said:

I also still agree with ninth by the way. 

You think Terra is disposable?

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People, just get a chatroom. This is far beyind the original scope of the thread for quite a while now.

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5 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

People, just get a chatroom. This is far beyind the original scope of the thread for quite a while now.

I was working on a post, but you're right. We're going to go in circles. 

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2 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

 

That's the main thing in spite of the tiresome circles. 

And sometimes you get really great info posts like with MaatithoftheBrand's useful posts on stuff that taught me about the Starborne Seraphon essence I didn't know before. Really made yesterday worth it despite the time sink in posts. xD

Regardless it's best to just drop it. These huge threads are turn offs to onlookers because they know wall texts await.

Woke up this morning to find several more pages of new debates and came to very much the same conclusion - I said my piece and stated why I like AoS/approach the lore, no point adding more of the same over and over!

 

Glad I could throw some interesting stuff out for you, at least!

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I'm actually enjoying AoS, although I only play rarely (even moreso this year).  I didn't start getting into it until 2.0 as the initial release and destruction of the old world was a bit of a blow as that is what I'd grown up with since the 1990s. 

But over time, especially as the focus on 30k dropped off I started to come round. A combo of 2+ Tough on Youtube with his lore videos and playing Underworlds with some people at work on my lunch got me into it. Now I have a fully painted Ironjawz army and a hodgepodge of chaos and order units. 

While not every faction is to my taste and I find others limited in scope, there's no denying that the kits GW are producing are some of the best they've done. Shout out to the Ironjawz Brutes and Blightkings kits as both being amazing for the potential they offer. 

I'm very much looking forward to seeing what comes next, the Sons of Behemat, supposed talk of a Gordrakk focused expansion, etc. 

 

 

 

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Something about AOS has always felt off to me. I suppose I prefer a more LOTR-esque feel to fantasy.

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I personally like AoS as well as Fantasy, but never actually tried to decide which one is better, because I feel it is a lot similar to comparing a car to a computer: which one is better? Well it depends a lot, because these two have some things in common, but are quite different.

I think AoS and Fantasy besides sharing some lore and characters and being both two GW's wargames actually in terms of fluff/lore/storytelling are very different. 

WHFB was a mittel-european-centric based setting strongly inspired by real human history and classical literature. Most of the races and characters were inspired by historical figures and cultures while the grim-dark gritty tones used for the world depiction were directly taken from the tales of the Grimm brothers. The ethics of the characters are always greyish never white, never black, very nihilistic (Archaon in Fantasy was basically a Ubermensch anti-hero from Nietzche) with very human agendas. Think of the story of Vlad von Carstain who actually was a Death Lord but wanted to rule the Empire as an immortal empreror ruling both on the living and the dead, yet his human subjects of Sylvania actually loved him because he was a good landlord.

AoS on the contrary is far more a contemporary-pop-comic-marvelish-novel type of narrative with amazing over the top heroes and villains. Just like Dr. Manhattan or Thanos the leaders of AoS can do things way more complex that we simple humans can even conceive, and just like in the comic books heroes and villains follow a much more delineated path of moral behavior (the evil dude is evil, the good one is good) Nagash is your local Skeletor, and Archaon is basically a comic Pol Pot type dictator with no internal struggle anymore just mean badassery.

Who is better Attila the Hun or Thanos? Well it’s kind of pointless to compare them right? They both have their space in their respective worlds and at the end it is us the hobbist who decide which world/setting suites us best, yet it is totally possible to like both.

Sometimes I like to read about complex characters with an internal struggle, that start good and turn super evil, such as the old Fantasy Archaon, sometimes I just want to see things explode like in a Michael Bay’s movie with no logical explanation.

So in the end I think it is a personal thing: Fantasy is not better (nor worse) than AoS in terms of lore/fluff just different. I prefer AoS as a game, I still prefer Fantasy as a lore type, but at the end I think they are both enjoyable.

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