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tripalreno4

So how does everyone feel about Age of Sigmar?

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14 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

1with the modern world, are we basically talking about the world, we people are living in right now, because if that is the case, then well then I didn’t know that people compared our world with that of the lotr.

Yes, like I said it was meant to be a mythical origin story to the modern world.

14 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

2. No literally all the gods that existed back then (the horned rat, Khorne, tzeentch, etc.) came from the old world.

it is even written in the skaventide battletome how The great horned rat just crabbed a huge junk of the ratmen, saving them from the doom that came upon the Old world.

Teclis still has memories of his past trying to recreate what ones were his fellow brethren.

Gorkamorka, is even been written as Gork and Mork fusing into one great god, both of which existed in the old world.

And now we have Gotrek, who is literally grumbling about how the old world was better.

How can all of those stories, not link the age of sigmar to what we ones knew as the old world?

Because they're acting out of character. It doesn't matter if they have the same names when they don't act like their old selves. I already went over this above.

14 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

3I don’t know.

Skaven are basically still skaven, doing the skaveny stuff the did before.

They're also working with Chaos forces regularly and their methods and goals have changed as a result.

14 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Orks are still looking for a good beating.

And Gloomspite gitz, well they went in living in fortresses build the dwarfen empire, to living in probably taken dwarfen fortresses and cities, beneath the earth, and still doing their stabbedy stabbings.

That's different, Orcs in Fantasy were more motivated by greed than lust for battle with the exception of Black Orcs. One of the most prominent is known for taking territory then extorting travelers who'd pass through it because he wanted gold (it also led to his death when he saw Thorgrim's golden throne and decided he wanted it). Those Greenskins were also known for having other motivations and aspirations, one of them for example wanted to steal a lot of Bugman's beer so he could create a force to rival Grom's, so that he'd be looked at the same way.

Those Greenskins are now just gone.

14 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Sure some Dwarfs may have chosen to take of into the skies.

and Some factions have joined forces.

and instead of a World we have now a huge ton of Realms.

And that's the same how?

14 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

But the old world is still a part of the age of sigmar trilogy, if you like it or not.

It's a part of it, but it's not the same.

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Posted (edited)

I think that nobody can't deny that AoS is the continuation of Fantasy. Of course AoS is really diferent form the Old World but that's a plus, it would be hard for me (as a fan of the Old World) to be a simple copy. If we want to look just for the diference and why they are diferent, that's fine, but in my opinion, it's a bit pointless. 

About AoS characters, I think that there isn't any  carbon-copy from Fantasy:

  • Some were addapted because they had miniatures and the lore just shoehorned them.
  • Others are just a link to the past and  they were used with that in mind.
  • Others are completely new and they didn't have any type of release in Fantasy.
  • Others are an evolution (or had a new development than before if you prefer or you are just salty and don't accept AoS As an evolution).
  • etc...

You get the point. 

Edited by Beliman
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7 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

It's a part of it, but it's not the same.

Ok I agrees with you on that.

it is definitely not the same, but can still be considered as the 9th age of fantasy.

considering that it is a part of the the lore.

and has many pieces of the old world in it 

ps: the coal of the skaven hasn’t changed that much.

in the old world they were interested in ruling the world as the supreme being in the world.

And now it is basically the same, with them wanting to be the supreme ruling faction in all 13realms.

sure they considered a chaos faction by now, but like the stories have proven to be, you can’t trust them.

they might fight with you guys for a bit, before leaving you to die-die.

it is Basically  The same in the old world.
there is a reason why a true mixed Skaventide army can’t have allies😝

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12 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

 

I really understand what Barkanaut wants to say. For people who don't know WHFB (It took some time to understand this does not mean Warhammer facebook) it is just annoying to see lore inconsistencies, like a super power dwarf from a world that was, just to please fans of an older game system.

 

 

I wasn't so keen of bringing gotrek back.

 

But then they had brian blessed voice him and, like, it is amazing. I love it.

12 hours ago, Grdaat said:

As a fan of that older game system, I can assure you it's just as annoying to see him in AoS, especially when the more interesting aspects around him are always dropped in favour of focusing on him (like the society he was assisting in Ghoulslayer, which had an interesting mix of old and new ideas and didn't fall into the AoS trope of being too big to worry about), and it's also annoying that the writers can't seem to figure out what to do with him, or even how he should act, like having him say he doesn't know if he's a Fyreslayer, which in his mind are a group who works for money even if Chaos forces are the ones paying them.

In short I also don't think it was a good idea to bring him back.

I think they should hand him to just one writer, or maybe a couple of close collaborators as opposed to multiple writers. Keep his voice consistent.

 

But again, Brian Blessed Gotrek is so cool you guys.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Grdaat you Are aware though that OFFICIALLY AoS is the continuation of WHF? You make a lot of claims that are plainly untrue or badly researched (there‘s an explanation how the winds of magic turned into the 8 realms, there is no disconnect just a continuation).

 

making the Argument that it is totally different because it evolved while denying that it is a continuation is a contradiction.

this will be my last word on it since debating about given facts is nonsense.

Edited by JackStreicher
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Just now, stratigo said:

I wasn't so keen of bringing gotrek back.

But then they had brian blessed voice him and, like, it is amazing. I love it.

I think they should hand him to just one writer, or maybe a couple of close collaborators as opposed to multiple writers. Keep his voice consistent.

But again, Brian Blessed Gotrek is so cool you guys.

Brian Blessed did a great job, there's no doubt about that, and I agree who should only have one writer to keep things consistent. At least then they wouldn't have him go back and forth on whether or not he considers himself a Fyreslayer, and they could be consistent with his motivations.

I honestly think it's a really bad idea to have him traipse around the realms like they did with the Old World because that means they're going to encounter and then throw away interesting parts of the setting, like that society I mentioned before, and it's also just going to make the people who are already familiar with the source material compare it constantly to the Old World adventures.

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2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

@Grdaat you Are aware though that OFFICIALLY AoS is the continuation of WHF? You make a lot of claims that are plainly untrue or badly researched (there‘s an explanation how the winds of magic turned into the 8 realms, there is no disconnect just a continuation).

Yes I'm aware, what claims did I make that were untrue? The claim that the winds are different from the realms is true, and it doesn't matter that it has an explanation, that still means it's different which was my point.

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

making the Argument that it is totally different because it evolved while denying that it is a continuation is a contradiction.

You'd have a point if I ever denied it as a continuation. I didn't, and you can't just claim I did because anyone can read this and see I never said that.

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37 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Yes I'm aware, what claims did I make that were untrue? The claim that the winds are different from the realms is true, and it doesn't matter that it has an explanation, that still means it's different which was my point.

You'd have a point if I ever denied it as a continuation. I didn't, and you can't just claim I did because anyone can read this and see I never said that.

Stop  trolling, all you are doing is b*tching.

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1 minute ago, xking said:

Stop  trolling, all you are doing is b*tching.

If you want to accuse people of trolling, do it to those who were saying AoS and WHFB are the same. They were who I was replying to initially before JackStreicher came in and misunderstood everything I was saying.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Beliman said:

What (AoS) army so you play @Grdaat?

Legion of Azgorh (I've even posted a few lists in their thread months ago, and commented on other lists) Cities of Sigmar (mainly Freeguild, but I don't play them nearly as much as the Legion), and Bretonnia before they were relegated to Legends status (I was also posting lists in their own thread before that happened).

Edited by Grdaat

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4 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Legion of Azgorh (I've even posted a few lists in their thread months ago, and commented on other lists) Cities of Sigmar (mainly Freeguild, but I don't play them nearly as much as the Legion), and Bretonnia before they were relegated to Legends status (I was also posting lists in their own thread before that happened).

I see, really disappointing. I was expecting another army.

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Just now, Beliman said:

I see, really disappointing. I was expecting another army.

Which were you hoping for?

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Since when did this topic become another (yawn) Age of Sigmar vs WFB? With Lockdown I feel like I've been catapulted back a few years 😂

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6 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Since when did this topic become another (yawn) Age of Sigmar vs WFB? With Lockdown I feel like I've been catapulted back a few years 😂

Since never, because that didn't happen. People talked about how one setting differed from the other after discussing how things in one setting change over time, that's the off-topic part of the thread in a nutshell.

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For me, AoS is the most flexible game system out there, and the lore has improved from the dark days of the first core book which was all over the place IMHO.

I haven't played a better tabletop figures game which can be effortlessly played either as an epic confrontation with hundreds of miniatures, or just a dungeon crawler using Skirmish rules and one bit of homebrew looting. 

Sure the balance isn't there yet (will it ever be?), pricing is the same (a bit all over the place TBH), and GW do complicate things for themselves. But I've never felt so motivated to buy into a hobby like this, and I was a WFB player back in the day, I also played Epic 40k, Dystopian Wars, D&D and other role-playing games. I love my SF and Fantasy and Horror... but AoS is for me is the one game that has kept my interest (and my sanity during Lockdown). (Mostly) the minis are the best around, and the rules ARE simple and straightforward.

What isn't is so simple, is the debate around the nuances of the factions/warscroll/allegiance abilities. They are complicated as heck 😄. But you know, I reckon AoS wouldn't be as interesting without them.

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9 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Since never, because that didn't happen. People talked about how one setting differed from the other after discussing how things in one setting change over time, that's the off-topic part of the thread in a nutshell.

I read this whole thread and I am going to say that you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing like it’s a high school debate class.  You can’t just keep referring to how you outline arguments when you never outline them in the first place.  I know being cooped up at home makes coming back over and over easier but just give it a rest.  It’s 10 pages now of you making these cyclical arguments about a fantasy setting.  They become cyclical because it is just that; fantasy.

 

please stop picking top talking points that people have complained about before and acting like you have made these eye opening claims.  Sometimes it’s better to just admit that you might not be convincing people to your side of the argument and cut your losses.  I felt like I was watching the talking heads on 24 hour news with the ‘I’m right because I am and you are wrong because of what I just said above’ nonsense.  

what makes this game and it’s setting so great is that it is a constantly developing series.  Much like LotR it wasn’t a complete and coherent thought from the get go and that is what makes it fun For me to read the new background they come out with.  Very few of the battle times were wholly written by the same person with different writers putting different things together in the finishEd product.  Hell in the last 5 years I have seen more story development out of AoS than I did in 10 years of reading fantasy army books and novels.  Though I suppose this whole post will be moot in the end as it makes assumptions based on what ‘I’ have read and doesn’t Make direct quotes for assemble and structure d argument.  Which is off topic in the extreme I’m sure we can all agree.

 

6CEBE20C-941E-4D55-833F-EA8C05A34AD8.png

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1 hour ago, Gorthor21 said:

I read this whole thread and I am going to say that you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing like it’s a high school debate class.  You can’t just keep referring to how you outline arguments when you never outline them in the first place.  I know being cooped up at home makes coming back over and over easier but just give it a rest.  It’s 10 pages now of you making these cyclical arguments about a fantasy setting.  They become cyclical because it is just that; fantasy.

If you've read all the pages you'd see the parts where I agree to drop arguments that aren't going anywhere. Anything that comes up after that point is either something new, or with somebody new who wanted to reply to an earlier post.

1 hour ago, Gorthor21 said:

please stop picking top talking points that people have complained about before and acting like you have made these eye opening claims.  Sometimes it’s better to just admit that you might not be convincing people to your side of the argument and cut your losses.  I felt like I was watching the talking heads on 24 hour news with the ‘I’m right because I am and you are wrong because of what I just said above’ nonsense.  

If other people are making these same arguments outside of this thread then I am unaware of them. I do not browse threads that make it clear they're about denigrating the setting, and aside from this thread where I gave my honest opinion on it I don't look up what other people think about the setting in general.

1 hour ago, Gorthor21 said:

what makes this game and it’s setting so great is that it is a constantly developing series.  Much like LotR it wasn’t a complete and coherent thought from the get go and that is what makes it fun For me to read the new background they come out with.  Very few of the battle times were wholly written by the same person with different writers putting different things together in the finishEd product.  Hell in the last 5 years I have seen more story development out of AoS than I did in 10 years of reading fantasy army books and novels.  Though I suppose this whole post will be moot in the end as it makes assumptions based on what ‘I’ have read and doesn’t Make direct quotes for assemble and structure d argument.  Which is off topic in the extreme I’m sure we can all agree.

 

6CEBE20C-941E-4D55-833F-EA8C05A34AD8.png

Sure, it's subjective anyway and I'm not interested in arguing about what you feel is a lot of development and what I feel is little development.

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17 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

If you've read all the pages you'd see the parts where I agree to drop arguments that aren't going anywhere. Anything that comes up after that point is either something new, or with somebody new who wanted to reply to an earlier post.

If other people are making these same arguments outside of this thread then I am unaware of them. I do not browse threads that make it clear they're about denigrating the setting, and aside from this thread where I gave my honest opinion on it I don't look up what other people think about the setting in general.

Sure, it's subjective anyway and I'm not interested in arguing about what you feel is a lot of development and what I feel is little development.


There is no need to take the high road once the gauntlet has been thrown.  You argued in circles each time to the point that several people backed down because it was like trying to talk to a wall of noise.

If you don’t mind me asking if you feel so irked by the inconsistencies of the setting then why keep coming back to defend arguments that haven’t gained traction then picking apart the criticisms of your points?

 

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8 minutes ago, Gorthor21 said:

There is no need to take the high road once the gauntlet has been thrown.  You argued in circles each time to the point that several people backed down because it was like trying to talk to a wall of noise.

If somebody makes a good point then I'll concede to them, as I've done in this thread. I'm not going to continually make the same arguments if they have a good reply to them.

8 minutes ago, Gorthor21 said:

If you don’t mind me asking if you feel so irked by the inconsistencies of the setting then why keep coming back to defend arguments that haven’t gained traction then picking apart the criticisms of your points?

Because I don't want to hate the setting. I do try to get into it, but there's still serious problems with it that I've gone into and if nobody talks about those problems how do you expect to see them get resolved? I would love it if the setting improves, but they've added so much with so little forethought that it feels like they're removing just as much as they're adding in their attempts to expand it, and with literal decades of experience I feel that they should've thought the setting through enough to avoid these types of inconsistencies by now. It comes across as somebody's first attempt rather than experienced writers coming together to make a setting work. I also probably wouldn't have nearly as much a problem with it if their prices weren't so high for something they'll change their minds on in the next edition.

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Like every debate, there will always be people who are not willing to consider an alternative viewpoint and/or those who will try their hardest to persuade them out of, either feeling their opinions are right, or because they want that person to enjoy the aspects of the hobby that they currently do not like. None of those people are wrong but some of them will not enjoy the debate and get very little from it, other than a bit of rage/stress/anxiety etc.

And like all of these debates the trick is to realise which you are and they are, and decide it is sometimes not worth arguing over. Some people will never be convinced no matter how convincing the argument.

Heck, some people even think Covid-19 doesn't exist.

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You gotta remember that most of the writers that GW employs are not the same ones that were there in the past.  Even separate parts of the same battletome are written by different people and that’s a lot for editors to catch especially when it has to go through several of their departments where everyone is leaving notes along the way.  Just like how subjective our different views of the hobby are jaded by our personal experiences with It the final product of a single battletome can have small inconsistencies like little bits of verbiage.

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35 minutes ago, Gorthor21 said:

You gotta remember that most of the writers that GW employs are not the same ones that were there in the past.  Even separate parts of the same battletome are written by different people and that’s a lot for editors to catch especially when it has to go through several of their departments where everyone is leaving notes along the way.  Just like how subjective our different views of the hobby are jaded by our personal experiences with It the final product of a single battletome can have small inconsistencies like little bits of verbiage.

There was already an argument about this before, but it's a pretty big change when one faction goes from being "ORDER, DAEMONS" (those were their keywords) to being real creatures beamed down through Star-Trek style transporters, and I've already gone over why the book can't seem to make it's mind up on whether or not it should stick with this change. I find it very hard to believe those kind of things are something the editors would just miss, and if it is then they need better editors, especially for the prices they're charging.

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I started at the beginning of AoS, and while I have owned minis on square bases I've never played Fantasy. I can say that at the beginning of the lore and for quite a long way through it I much preferred Fantasy's world and themes, and in a way I still do - but not quite as much and there are some things I really appreciate in AoS. 

A lot of the things I really like in AoS didn't become apparent until starting a roleplaying game using the WHFB system but in the AoS world (it translates over relatively well for a low magic campaign if you're willing to make corresponding gods and places for the dead ones). What I once saw as the biggest downside to AoS (the open world where events struggle to feel impactful) became a massive boon when creating characters, cities, and stories; there was a much greater scope to make unique factions that could fit into the lore, and things were impactful in the scope of the story. While I have no doubt roleplaying in the Fantasy world is a lot of fun, you have a limit of what you can do that fits in with the setting, and a limit to the cultures you can create while still fitting in with the lore. 

If a city falls in AoS, maybe it doesn't mean much to the setting as a whole, but so long as the city's story was compelling then that shouldn't matter. For example, I wouldn't say Shawshank Redemption had a bad scope because what happened in that story had no impact on the world at large - the characters and their personal struggles were what mattered. From playing the roleplaying game I could get attached to the made up cities and characters and care about what happened to them; of course, GW (or anyone else outside of the game) doesn't know or care, but that's fine as the freeform setting lets you create something you personally can invest yourself in and do whatever you want with.

At the end of the day, if someone was to ask me to read a book series in Fantasy or AoS, I'd probably choose Fantasy due to the more structured setting and the fact that I have no creative freedom over the characters in that book and so one of AoS's biggest strengths (room for personal creativity) isn't there. If someone was to ask me if I wanted to play a roleplaying game or create a narrative army in one of the two games, I'd nearly always go with AoS.

At the end of the day, as the main point of AoS is to be a tabletop game, I think AoS's narrative is better suited to the medium than Fantasy. While structured deep lore is really fun and interesting to read, as soon as the lore becomes restrictive you limit the creativity of an inherently creative medium. This isn't always a bad thing, but I have recently found fewer restrictions more enjoyable. 

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Posted (edited)

Upset that it took ten pages for someone to reference the shawshank redemption.

My only real issue with AoS outside of some glaring rules issues is that I can't connect to any of the characters they created for it, nothing I read makes me want to go find out more.  In contrast to that when I read my first snippet about nagash I went and found out everything I could and followed it all the way through

Edited by Slayerofmen
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