So how does everyone feel about Age of Sigmar?

[Grdaat]

8 minutes ago, Overread said:

If I were Nagash and hiding huge Tombs underneath allied cities I'd make the Tombs appear like bedrock. Those cities are VAST so it stands to reason that they'd like to have a nice stable bit of bedrock underthem. So if the tomb looks like bedrock and is surrounded by rock and magic shields it to make it look like Rock - then no insane or sane Skaven is going to invade through the rock itself.

A good theory, a shame I can't find any lore supporting it.

[Grdaat]

14 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

And non-daemons don't explode into starlight. They're light versions of daemons.

So you highlight a big difference between them and Daemons and think that's evidence that they're the same?

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It's pretty clear it's a similar case to Stormcast and their lightning charged blood. The Spawning pools form them through Azyr magic and Slann just reform the Seraphon's magical bodies once they get beamed down as their Azyr nature is rejected by the other realms which justifies the conjuration.

Where's it say their nature is rejected by other realms? The book says their nature mixes with other realms, which changes them into Coalesced, it says nothing about them being rejected.

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So prideful enough to try and slay a god while also understanding he  logically couldn't.

Except the first description says he thought he could, the second description says he thought he couldn't. In the first description he only took the fight against Sigmar because he thought he could kill him, that's it. In the second description he was forced to fight him and thought he couldn't kill him. As I said, these are contradictory.

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Because they're pretty clueless when it comes to Shyish. That's why one of the gnawholes dug straight into the sea of death and flooded Skavenblight with millions of undead.

Again, you mean to tell me that Skaven have never seen an inanimate skeleton suddenly start to move?

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Katakros was still able to order their commander and NightHaunt to attack the armored chaos highways so they had reserves.

Again, he should not have been able to do that because Archaon's forces would've reached the newly built fortress immediately after. Even if he sent out more forces, which I'm assuming he pulled from thin air since they were nowhere to be seen before, there's no reason to believe they'd have lasted longer than Katakros' elite.

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Bone forts + a gateway straight to the endless legions of death straight from Shyish for reinforcements. There's no steamrolling that.

He already did it several times, why is it suddenly impossible for him to do it again?

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No I literally quoted it and how Seraphon are reformed by the Slann when they beam down.

Then can you list the page number? I already went through this in earlier posts and explained in detail why it's no longer a thing. I also highlighted several parts where the book outright states that was never a thing.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[Overread]

10 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

A good theory, a shame I can't find any lore supporting it.

The lore itself recounting the hidden tombs is only a few sentences in the battletome. It's very light on details simply saying that the catacombs were carved. This strongly suggests that they were carved into rock, thus bedrock. In addition they were said to be in areas deathly to the living. So chances are the few who did stumble upon them over the centuries, died before word could get out. 

 

[Grdaat]

Just now, Overread said:

The lore itself recounting the hidden tombs is only a few sentences in the battletome. It's very light on details simply saying that the catacombs were carved. This strongly suggests that they were carved into rock, thus bedrock. In addition they were said to be in areas deathly to the living. So chances are the few who did stumble upon them over the centuries, died before word could get out.

That's a lot of assumptions for something we don't know about, which is why I'm asking questions. Until we know more, it's just poorly defined and assuming the answer does not help it be properly defined in the setting.

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, Grdaat said:

There are many reasons I personally don't like AoS, but the biggest one is the lack of investment. By upping the scope of the setting they ruined the scale. Why should I care if a country-sized city is about to get destroyed? The setting could just timeskip ahead again so that there's 5 more. Why should I care about the alliances between races? Those can change on a whim to fit whatever drama GW wants there to be. Why should I care that an army numbering in the millions was destroyed, or that thousands of people were eaten by ogors? One book later their replacements have arrived. There's nothing to invest me into the story because it feels like there's very little real consequences to what happens, no matter how catastrophic the events are. In Fantasy if you're playing a campaign game and Karl Franz is killed, you know that's going to have a massive impact on the setting, because you know how The Empire works and what the reprecussions of his death would be. If Archaon gets shot to death then that too is going to have massive reprecussions, here though? If Archaon goes down he'll show back up later or another will just take his spot. Did the Celestant Prime go down? Guess he'll have to wait until next week to come back. Did your "Dwarf High King on Throne" die? Just use him again as a different one that looks identical, why not.

What kind of blows my mind are the retcons GW makes to the lore, despite it only being 5 years old, and there's so many contradictions you can find within the same book that taken on its own merits, I cannot say the lore is well written by any stretch of the imagination, especially when most of it is just made up on the spot to make somebody else sound better (like having yet another character who killed Kings/Emperors we've never seen or heard of).

As far as the actual game goes, I don't find it nearly as engaging. A lot of tactical nuance is lost with the system changes, along with a lot of the unique feel each army had, as well as their customizability (and this has only gotten worse in the most recent GHB, where artefacts available to the realms were cut from 84 to 7). That's also before we get into the absurd power creep you find in the newer books GW puts out, to the point where if you're running an older army you need either a huge handicap, or winning the lottery levels of luck even if you don't do anything wrong. This is before we get to the double turn issue, which in so many games is just an instant win for whoever went second.

I also don't understand why people say it plays smoother or cleaner than Fantasy when the game itself has become much more convoluted. Sure on release and after the first GHB I could definitely agree, but before the game book was released you needed a flow chart and 4-5 seperate books to play the game (the core rules, malign portents, GHB, whichever book your scenario is in and then your army book, or more if you want to use allies) and even now it isn't much better. Anyone putting in the effort to go through all of that and learn which allegiance abilities, rerolls, allies, subfactions, wound negations, attack bonuses, Battalions and unit synergies are best for their force on top of the artefacts, endless spells and various terrain mechanics which best suit you could've easily learned WHFB, and I think people are assuming that game's a lot more complicated than it actually is. As of right now I'm pretty sure current AoS is even more bloated with special rules than 8th edition fantasy. The comparison gets worse when you look at 7th and 6th edition Fantasy which didn't have such ridiculous issues with their special rules.

I get your point, and you are not wrong imo.

But the problem is not about AoS, it's just GW. 

We already know that GW had really big retcons in the past with really big holes in the plot, but I think the best part about Warhammer settings is that we know that they are going to be polished, expanded and supported by very long time.

About the game... I never saw anyone with more than 3-4 pages of their rules and with maybe 5 games, you can play a 2k points games in less than 3 hours ( and if you remember your own hit and wound warscrolls , I'm pretty sure that you can go down to 2 hours). And that's with all the "layers /bloat rules". 

Conclusion:  I'm not saying that AoS is better than Fantasy, it's just diferent. Like I said in some other posts, just enjoy the ride before we reach the "6th edition point"!!

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, Grdaat said:

So you highlight a big difference between them and Daemons and think that's evidence that they're the same?

Nah I was making a joke about it. They're not true daemons but certainly not flesh and blood mortals either. Until Coalescing anyway.

I put them into a lesser daemon area. We need to see more of their interactions as Starborne. Bits on them having a harder to interacting with other realms and the community stuff mentioning ethereal properties or even creatures really puts to light the "strange magical abilities" the starborne possess.

 

1 hour ago, Grdaat said:

Where's it say their nature is rejected by other realms? The book says their nature mixes with other realms, which changes them into Coalesced, it says nothing about them being rejected.

"While Starborne can interact with the tangible world, their deep connection to Azyr prevents them from achieving true physicality."

It makes sense as it's two winds of magic being forced together. They need time for one magic to replace the other in their bodies.

1 hour ago, Grdaat said:

that's it. In the second description he was forced to fight him and thought he couldn't kill him. As I said, these are contradictory.

Eh, to me it sounds like he finally figured out he bit off more than he could chew but it probably was a writer's error. It'll be clarified come next tome.

1 hour ago, Grdaat said:

Again, you mean to tell me that Skaven have never seen an inanimate skeleton suddenly start to move?

Skeletons yes which would've moved. What looked like bone armor they probably prodded wouldn't have mattered.

It's a pointless discussion until the next Skaven tome. That'll have an actual focus on this and whether their gnawholes missed the tombs thanks to magic wards pushing their reality-drilling attempts away towards the corporeal cities or if they did find a few and are why some Ossiarch forces seek out replacement bones to fix their gnawed on exoskeletons.

1 hour ago, Grdaat said:

Again, he should not have been able to do that because Archaon's forces would've reached the newly built fortress immediately after. Even if he sent out more forces, which I'm assuming he pulled from thin air since they were nowhere to be seen before, there's no reason to believe they'd have lasted longer than Katakros' elite.

He planned far enough ahead to have the bone forts fitted with a large supply of his replacement bodies so he would've similarly planned far ahead for the tables to turn, get killed by Archaon and be besieged and thus leaving sizable elite forces and supplies in the fort to withstand Archaon.

It's the reason he built them in the first place, he knew he'd never be able to conquer everything before Archaon got back so he decided from the start to make a foothold for Death.

1 hour ago, Grdaat said:

He already did it several times, why is it suddenly impossible for him to do it again?

Nagash wasn't in ascension then with several more of the underworlds opened up to him plus every soul in the realms drawn to his Nadir.

Death is waaay more powerful now in the Time of Tribulation than it was in the Age of Chaos.

1 hour ago, Grdaat said:

Then can you list the page number? I already went through this in earlier posts and explained in detail why it's no longer a thing. I also highlighted several parts where the book outright states that was never a thing.

Oh, I meant I was looking through the Lexicanum.

Though even going by your posts I don't see it as a retcon like you're saying. They just blended the lores together so the first tome was like being told by an Azyrite on what he thought was happening and the current tome is clarifying the Azyr forms, their magi-tech ships and how they interact with other realms.

Edit: ah, like your edit here:

"As I pointed out in my reply above, the book explicitly dismisses the idea that the Seraphon troops are created by the Slann when it talks about Astrolith Bearers. "

They didn't have to specifically create them. Just a twist on the words "formed from memory" is enough to still make it true but obscured.

Where-in the past the formed part made us think created now we see the trick that they formed their Azyrian forms to be able to interact with the other realms as they went from magical to physical in the teleportation.

 It'll be very interesting to see what direction they'll go with the third tome and a overhaul on the lines. By then they can actually go full out on the Azyr beings concept with models reflecting it.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Grdaat]

40 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

"While Starborne can interact with the tangible world, their deep connection to Azyr prevents them from achieving true physicality."

This is what I was getting at when I said the book never says what "true physicality" is. What do you think they cannot do before becoming Coalesced that they can do after? Also where in that paragraph does it say they're rejected? In the same page it says their magic mixes with the realm their in, which is the opposite of rejecting them.

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It makes sense as it's two winds of magic being forced together. They need time for one magic to replace the other in their bodies.

It doesn't say they get replaced, it says they mix.

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Eh, to me it sounds like he finally figured out he bit off more than he could chew but it probably was a writer's error. It'll be ckarified come next tome.

That would make sense if these bits weren't separated by an entire chapter's worth of pages. To me it seems like it was written by different writers who forgot to make sure they were writing the same thing.

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Skeletons yes which would've moved. What looked like bone armor they probably prodded wouldn't have mattered.

Skeletons aren't always animated even in Shyish. Also where are you getting that the Bonereapers looked like bone armour and not bone people?

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It's a pointless discussion until the next Skaven tome. That'll have an actual focus on this and whether their gnawholes missed the tombs thanks to magic wards pushing their reality-drilling attempts away towards the corporeal cities or if they did find a few and are why some Ossiarch forces seek out replacement bones to fix their gnawed on exoskeletons.

It's a pretty important bit of how they invade though. If you say something was buried under the cities they invade an immediate question is how they did not notice them.

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He planned far enough ahead to have the bone forts fitted with a large supply of his replacement bodies so he would've similarly planned far ahead for the tables to turn, get killed by Archaon and be besieged and thus leaving sizable elite forces and supplies in the fort to withstand Archaon.

I get that, my point is that at the rate Archaon went through Katakros' forces, he would not have the time needed to get a replacement body and sit in a room sending out different orders and organizing his armies in a comparative lull. Even then, there's no way any reinforcements would hold out longer than the most elite troops under the most elite commanders in his army. That's why I said it makes it look like Archaon gave up.

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It's the reason he built them in the first place, he knew he'd never be able to conquer everything before Archaon got back so he decided from the start to make a foothold for Death.

And why wouldn't Archaon tear right through it like he did the main force?

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Nagash wasn't in ascension then with several more of the underworlds opened up to him plus every soul in the realms drawn to his Nadir.

And as far as we know, Be'lakor wasn't with Archaon at the time either. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Nagash was "in ascension" when Archaon destroyed his body, unless you mean something else by that.

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Death is waaay more powerful now in the Time of Tribulation than it was in the Age of Chaos.

And Chaos has also grown stronger, as we've seen by certain pieces like Slaanesh's speech on how it's being fed despite its captivity. Everyone's growing in power and not just Nagash's forces.

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Though even going by your posts I don't see it as a retcon like you're saying. They just blended the lores together so the first tome was like being told by an Azyrite on what he thought was happening and the current tome is clarifying the Azyr forms, their magi-tech ships and how they interact with other realms.

Edit: ah, like your edit here:

"As I pointed out in my reply above, the book explicitly dismisses the idea that the Seraphon troops are created by the Slann when it talks about Astrolith Bearers. "

They didn't have to specifically create them. Just a twist on the words "formed from memory" is enough to still make it true but obscured.

Lore A) Seraphon are conjured into being from a Slann's memory.

Lore B) Seraphon are Lizardmen from the old world, held in stasis and/or born through spawning pools (just like they used to be) and transported to where the Slann need them by miniature realmgates they use to teleport.

I'm sorry, but I'm calling BS if you're going to try and say that these are the same and not a retcon. You don't blend lore together by fundamentally changing its core aspect. Take this for example: "the current tome is clarifying the Azyr forms-" They no longer have "Azyr forms" because it turns out they were always flesh and blood beings.

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Where-in the past the formed part made us think created now we see the trick that they formed their Azyrian forms to be able to interact with the other realms as they went from magical to physical in the teleportation.

Except they're stated to still have physical forms aboard their starships, not just after they're teleported down through their translocators.

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 It'll be very interesting to see what direction they'll go with the third tome and a overhaul on the lines. By then they can actually go full out on the Azyr beings concept with models reflecting it.

Which part of the battletome makes you think they haven't dropped the idea of them being "Azyr beings"?

EDIT: I'm not talking about them having Azyr magic in their bodies, that much is obvious, I'm talking about them being formed on the fly, because all of that's gone. We see how far they've departed from that in the Temple Guard section.

You keep acting as if they're not fully physical regardless of where they are, so could you point to me the parts of the battletome that gave you that impression, or are you getting most of your information from Lexicanum?

Not to belittle that site, but it's not going to be the same as reading the source material yourself, which is why I'm asking specifically for references to the battletome.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[Baron Klatz]

49 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Which part of the battletome makes you think they haven't dropped the idea of them being "Azyr beings"? You keep acting as if they're not fully physical regardless of where they are, so could you point to me the parts of the battletome that gave you that impression,

The part that confused you in the first place as it kept the old lore and you mentioned at the start of this post:

49 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

This is what I was getting at when I said the book never says what "true physicality" is. What do you think they cannot do before becoming Coalesced that they can do after?

There's still something eldritch about the Starborne with that physicality and how the community site kept emphasizing this bit "Known as the Starborne, these creatures wield strange and celestial powers " on how they're suffused with Azyr energies.

It's a vagueness they're playing with that i'm really looking forward to being answered in the future whether it be a novel, the Soulbound rpg or a new Seraphon tome and models to it justice.

49 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

It doesn't say they get replaced, it says they mix.

Yeah that one's on me. That's the very meaning of coalescing.

49 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

That would make sense if these bits weren't separated by an entire chapter's worth of pages. To me it seems like it was written by different writers who forgot to make sure they were writing the same thing.

Likely the case. Minor writer errors have happened like with Black Rift.

49 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Also where are you getting that the Bonereapers looked like bone armour and not bone people?

The fact that they're larger than skeletons and have metal melded into their bones. If one fell apart you'd probably be able to fashion it into a suit handily.

I guess large macabre mannequins works too for what the Skaven would've seen.

49 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

And as far as we know, Be'lakor wasn't with Archaon at the time either. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Nagash was "in ascension" when Archaon destroyed his body, unless you mean something else by that.

Nah, Archaon just made him come back a bit stronger. The Nadir put him on a higher level with how much it empowered the realm of death.

The Flesh-Eaters new tome goes into it a bit how he was able to access underworlds he never could before.

so both in power and numbers Nagash hit the jackpot with his scheme.

53 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Lore A) Seraphon are conjured into being from a Slann's memory.

Lore B) Seraphon are Lizardmen from the old world, held in stasis and/or born through spawning pools (just like they used to be) and transported to where the Slann need them by miniature realmgates they use to teleport.

I'm sorry, but I'm calling BS if you're going to try and say that these are the same and not a retcon.

The funny part is the memory thing is more on the fans than the lore. Guy here back in 2018 pointed out that Seraphon always came down from the sky.

He basically saw through that and predicted the new/cleared up lore of the Slann beaming them down into forms that can be on another realm's surface.

[Grdaat]

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

The part that confused you in the first place as it kept the old lore and you mentioned at the start of this post:

The part that said they were flesh and blood? Because that's new.

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

There's still something eldritch about the Starborne with that physicality and how the community site kept emphasizing this bit "Known as the Starborne, these creatures wield strange and celestial powers " on how they're suffused with Azyr energies.

Suffused with those energies is not the same as being made of those energies. The Drakfoot for example are suffused with Aqshy, but they're still flesh and blood Bonesplitters.

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

It's a vagueness they're playing with that i'm really looking forward to being answered in the future whether it be a novel, the Soulbound rpg or a new Seraphon tome and models to it justice.

It's not a vagueness, they spell it out in the battletomes that they are physically born and use technology to teleport.

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

Yeah that one's on me. That's the very meaning of coalescing.

In other words, they're not rejected by the realms.

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

The fact that they're larger than skeletons and have metal melded into their bones. If one fell apart you'd probably be able to fashion it into a suit handily.

How? They're not hollow, they're the same size as a person and are thick through and through. What kind of suit of armour is a solid block you can't wear?

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

I guess large macabre mannequins works too for what the Skaven would've seen.

Except they've fought the Morghast before and so they know what these things share a resemblance to.

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

Nah, Archaon just made him come back a bit stronger. The Nadir put him on a higher level with how much it empowered the realm of death.

Supposedly anyway. It altered the realm and created the Nighthaunt although I've yet to really see Nagash do something he couldn't do before.

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

The Flesh-Eaters new tome goes into it a bit how he was able to access underworlds he never could before.

That's more a result of the Necroquake than a jump in his own power, not to mention any boost he gets from the Nadir is temporary which is why he keeps going back there.

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

so both in power and numbers Nagash hit the jackpot with his scheme.

Not really, if his plan didn't get messed up he'd be way more powerful, he just got lucky that the outcome fell in his favour.

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

The funny part is the memory thing is more on the fans than the lore. Guy here back in 2018 pointed out that Seraphon always came down from the sky.

He basically saw through that and predicted the new/cleared up lore of the Slann beaming them down into forms that can be on another realm's surface.

That's all well and good, right up until you remember bits like the Slann hiding their Seraphon inside stuff like puddles because they stored the essence of them there and manifested them out of the puddles, not the sky, when it was time to attack.

It also doesn't explain this passage from Grand Alliance: Order

"From cords of glittering celestial energy they summon forth the Seraphon, a long-lost race returned to reality by the power of the Starmasters."

In the new lore they're not a long-lost race, and they don't return to reality because they never left it. On the same page they're described to be "forged from celestial energy" which is no longer the case. The Redditor also doesn't explain why they used to have the Daemon keyword even though they're no longer Daemons.

You can also find passages in the original Seraphon Battletome where a Slann was slain and the Warriors they created literally fade away after time has passed.

Finally, I'm going to quote the old Battletome directly here when it talks about where the Seraphon come from: "all that is known for sure is that they do not appear without the presence of the Slann. From the gestalt memory of these ancient seers are the Seraphon given shape."

So in short, the fans are not to be blamed for thinking the Slann remember the Seraphon into being, the old Battletome outright states this is what happened, and shows that they could not exist without the presence of a Slann. They also still had the Daemon keyword in this Battletome.

[MaatithoftheBrand]

2 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Let me help you:

Page 4, under Reptilian Majesty: "Using the translocation portals found within their arcane vessels, these beings strike precisely and without mercy."

Page 12, under Temple Cities: "Even the Starborne have been known to send these gleaming golden pyramids through translocation portals, to morph areas of the material plane in line with their interpretation of the Great Plan."

Page 13, same section: "Throughout the temple-cities are translocation gateways, miniature and localised Realmgates constructed through the arcane knowledge of the slann."

Page 19, the Thunder Lizard: "The constellation’s skink priesthood has become adept at introducing minute quantities of refined Chamonite – transporting caches of the realmstone across the aetheric void through the translocation technology found within their ziggurats – to the incubation machines of their temple-cities’ hatcheries."

Page 35, under Bastilodons: "More mysterious, but no less deadly, are the Arks of Sotek. Each of these strange devices is in fact a Realmgate in miniature, connected to the deep serpent-pits that are found throughout Seraphon temples and heave with reptilian life. When an Ark is activated many of these venomous snakes will be transported to the battlefield."

I could list more examples if you need me to.

Then that would also apply to vampires in the setting, considering how one particular sect of them travel.

The problem is the book outright states this is not the case.

Alright, fair enough - I see now why I missed these. So these references to translocation portals - the page 13 quotation explicitly describes them as Realmgates, which is probably why in my mind I am not getting a sci-fi or traditionally "mortal" vibe from them - these are portals that possibly predate Sigmar's Pantheon in the Age of Myth, and effectively act as dimensional rifts. Fundamentally, I still personally think that you could see this as similar to the rifts used by Chaos Daemons if you wanted to focus on the arcane and otherworldly nature of the Seraphon if you wanted to.

The level of glib in my superficial description of the similarities between the nature of Chaos Daemons and Seraphon was indeed perhaps unhelpful. However, hopefully you can see that there are at least a few more similarities between Seraphon and manifestations of the Ruinous Powers than those two and Vampires, who are transformed mortals whether than wholesale created creatures, and the fact that the ones who can be moved magically by ghost boats or cursed castles are the exceptions rather than the rule, as they are for Daemons and the Coalesced.

 

I think a lot of this comes from the fact that Seraphon originally had the DAEMON Keyword if I remember correctly, and their first Battletome described them being summoned down from Azyr by the Slann. I think giving them that Keyword was part of the very different design philosophy of early Age of Sigmar, where it could easily be shorthand for the fact that they were magical beings and that abilities that banished arcane creatures - most commonly daemons - would also have the effect of disrupting the magic of the Seraphon.  A lot of people since then have used the idea of Seraphon being Order Daemons to describe in part this phenomenon - the Seraphon being creatures of magic that were bound tightly by their nature, as dictated by their creators, and who were summoned to the Realms. A lot like Daemons.

The 2.0 Battletome, in this light, is less a retcon and more both a clarification and a development. We now get a clearer idea about the nature of the Starborne and how their starlight-infused existence works - the clarification - and the Coalesced, who in the centuries since the start of the setting had become something new. They are not literally Order Daemons - they do not manifest from specific aspects or whims of the Slann  as they pull them from the Realm of Order - but they are certainly not mortal either. Certainly not wholly living beings as most in the Realms would understand it - they might be flesh and blood, but that is not all they are.

So perhaps people using the shorthand "Seraphon are Daemons" is unhelpful. But the themes and ideas of that are still there and people still can choose to lean into them. If tomorrow I wanted to, I could go out and start a Seraphon army that was painted up as beings shining with Azyrite magic and starlight, use the rules for the Starborne, and play up the summoning mechanics and the utterly cold, ordered nature of the army and their devotion to the Slann and their wishes and Great Plan*. They would not be daemons, but that daemonic/angelic "otherness" would be entirely in keeping with the lore.

 

And I would actually argue that this type of discussion proves just how far the lore has come. Look at 40k; there are infinite debates and theories and stances fans can take on what side Alpharius was really working for and when, the nature of the Ynnead and his goals, the purpose of the Dark and Cursed Foundings, etc. In Fantasy, there were similar debates and hooks and disagreements to be had (until the End Times gave us a lot of concrete answers, things like Nagash's slow return, the fates of Sigmar and Alith Anar, etc...). And now, in Age of Sigmar, we are beginning to get not only hooks like "What is Malaerion's plan with his eyes in Azyr, what is the Duradin army gathering in Chamon building towards, etc", but also debates to be had - "To exactly what extent can the Seraphon be considered mortal, can the Fyreslayers ever hope to succeed in resurrecting their god given how they use ur-gold, etc"?
And that seems like amazing growth from where we started five years ago.

 

*You know, apart from my abysmal painting skills... but like, in theory

[Grdaat]

18 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

Alright, fair enough - I see now why I missed these. So these references to translocation portals - the page 13 quotation explicitly describes them as Realmgates, which is probably why in my mind I am not getting a sci-fi or traditionally "mortal" vibe from them - these are portals that possibly predate Sigmar's Pantheon in the Age of Myth, and effectively act as dimensional rifts. Fundamentally, I still personally think that you could see this as similar to the rifts used by Chaos Daemons if you wanted to focus on the arcane and otherworldly nature of the Seraphon if you wanted to.

Anyone can use realmgates, they're very different to Chaos Rifts in that regard.

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The level of glib in my superficial description of the similarities between the nature of Chaos Daemons and Seraphon was indeed perhaps unhelpful. However, hopefully you can see that there are at least a few more similarities between Seraphon and manifestations of the Ruinous Powers than those two and Vampires, who are transformed mortals whether than wholesale created creatures, and the fact that the ones who can be moved magically by ghost boats or cursed castles are the exceptions rather than the rule, as they are for Daemons and the Coalesced.

Except the new book explicitly states that Seraphon are transported mortals, creatures of flesh and blood who move from one location to another. They live, they die, and the Seraphon need to wait for new ones to be born.

Quote

I think a lot of this comes from the fact that Seraphon originally had the DAEMON Keyword if I remember correctly, and their first Battletome described them being summoned down from Azyr by the Slann. I think giving them that Keyword was part of the very different design philosophy of early Age of Sigmar, where it could easily be shorthand for the fact that they were magical beings and that abilities that banished arcane creatures - most commonly daemons - would also have the effect of disrupting the magic of the Seraphon.  A lot of people since then have used the idea of Seraphon being Order Daemons to describe in part this phenomenon - the Seraphon being creatures of magic that were bound tightly by their nature, as dictated by their creators, and who were summoned to the Realms. A lot like Daemons.

The first Battletome also showed how Seraphon who didn't have a Slann in proximity to them would fade away and disappear, so they used to work almost exactly like Daemons.

Quote

The 2.0 Battletome, in this light, is less a retcon and more both a clarification and a development.

Hold up, because you don't get to go from "created and remembered into being from magic by the Slann" to "they were always flesh and blood" without retconning it.

Quote

We now get a clearer idea about the nature of the Starborne and how their starlight-infused existence works - the clarification - and the Coalesced, who in the centuries since the start of the setting had become something new.

That's not a clearer idea, it's a straight up rewrite.

Quote

They are not literally Order Daemons - they do not manifest from specific aspects or whims of the Slann  as they pull them from the Realm of Order - but they are certainly not mortal either.

Except this is exactly how the Grand Alliance book and old Seraphon Battletome stated the worked.

Quote

Certainly not wholly living beings as most in the Realms would understand it - they might be flesh and blood, but that is not all they are.

So perhaps people using the shorthand "Seraphon are Daemons" is unhelpful.

Again, that's exactly how they used to be, which is why people used it.

Quote

But the themes and ideas of that are still there and people still can choose to lean into them. If tomorrow I wanted to, I could go out and start a Seraphon army that was painted up as beings shining with Azyrite magic and starlight, use the rules for the Starborne, and play up the summoning mechanics and the utterly cold, ordered nature of the army and their devotion to the Slann and their wishes and Great Plan*. They would not be daemons, but that daemonic/angelic "otherness" would be entirely in keeping with the lore.

Except you'd still have them being teleported from a starship rather than created, and so you could conceivably run out of troops or be unable to win a war of attrition against something like Daemons or Undead.

Quote

And I would actually argue that this type of discussion proves just how far the lore has come. Look at 40k; there are infinite debates and theories and stances fans can take on what side Alpharius was really working for and when, the nature of the Ynnead and his goals, the purpose of the Dark and Cursed Foundings, etc. In Fantasy, there were similar debates and hooks and disagreements to be had (until the End Times gave us a lot of concrete answers, things like Nagash's slow return, the fates of Sigmar and Alith Anar, etc...). And now, in Age of Sigmar, we are beginning to get not only hooks like "What is Malaerion's plan with his eyes in Azyr, what is the Duradin army gathering in Chamon building towards, etc", but also debates to be had - "To exactly what extent can the Seraphon be considered mortal, can the Fyreslayers ever hope to succeed in resurrecting their god given how they use ur-gold, etc"?
And that seems like amazing growth from where we started five years ago.

I find it hard to look at as progress, to me it's more of a second draft considering how much they had to rewrite or add in.

EDIT: Also see my post above for how the Seraphon further differed from their current state.

Quote

*You know, apart from my abysmal painting skills... but like, in theory

Can't delete this bit on mobile for some reason, weird.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[MaatithoftheBrand]

Alright, to address this quotation

"From cords of glittering celestial energy they summon forth the Seraphon, a long-lost race returned to reality by the power of the Starmasters."

 

This could easily be read as

"From cords of glittering celestial energy" - to watch them appear is to see shafts of starlight fall from the Heavens

"They summon forth the Seraphon" - you can summon your bannermen or vassals, it does not have to mean they are being pulled wholesale from swirling magic

"A long-lost race returned to reality by the power of the Starmasters" -the spawning pools ran dry without the magic of the world-that-was to sustain them, until the Slann were able to infuse their temple-ships with the magic of Azyr and begin their births anew.

 

Yes, it is conceivable that my hypothetical Seraphon army could lose a war of attrition because the temple-ship cannot draw enough power to spawn new warriors quickly, but that does not stop them being warriors suffused with Azyrite magic, glowing like the ancient murals, and marching in lockstep like extensions of the Slann will - it is still possible to play up those themes without needing them to all have the word "Daemon" written across their foreheads, if that is the flavour you want and enjoy in your Seraphon.

 

I am saying it is possible to square the 2.0 fluff with the original lore, the same way the rough and ready fluff of, say 2e 40k can be squared with the modern stuff. Some bits take a bit more work, but its often possible. 

[Baron Klatz]

8 hours ago, Grdaat said:

Suffused with those energies is not the same as being made of those energies. The Drakfoot for example are suffused with Aqshy, but they're still flesh and blood Bonesplitters.

There's quite the difference between tribes growing up around a magic and a race having it breathed into them by a God-beast that's later the magic their spawning uses.

8 hours ago, Grdaat said:

It's not a vagueness, they spell it out in the battletomes that they are physically born and use technology to teleport.

That's the parts we know so far anyway about the Starborne. That they wax and wane with the stars themselves shows a deeper connection to the realm of heaven.

8 hours ago, Grdaat said:

In other words, they're not rejected by the realms.

Yes. I was agreeing with you. They need the Slaan so they can be stable there and eventually mix.

8 hours ago, Grdaat said:

That's all well and good, right up until you remember bits like the Slann hiding their Seraphon inside stuff like puddles because they stored the essence of them there and manifested them out of the puddles, not the sky, when it was time to attack.

I don't see why that's beyond the ability of a Slann & a realmgate. They just hold the teleportation in another spot.

We've seen naturally occurring gateways appear in stuff like tarpits when the Ironjawz attacked Nagash's city from the realm of beasts.

8 hours ago, Grdaat said:

It also doesn't explain this passage from Grand Alliance: Order

"From cords of glittering celestial energy they summon forth the Seraphon, a long-lost race returned to reality by the power of the Starmasters."

In the new lore they're not a long-lost race, and they don't return to reality because they never left it. On the same page they're described to be "forged from celestial energy" which is no longer the case.

That seems pretty easy to explain.

Cords of glittering energy is what Azyr magic the spawning pools draw on to form them with the reality bit just a fancy wording.

And they're not long lost in the new lore because they've been active in the realms for centuries now with the Age of Hope instead of when they missed out in the Age of Myth.

8 hours ago, Grdaat said:

You can also find passages in the original Seraphon Battletome where a Slann was slain and the Warriors they created literally fade away after time has passed.

Finally, I'm going to quote the old Battletome directly here when it talks about where the Seraphon come from: "all that is known for sure is that they do not appear without the presence of the Slann. From the gestalt memory of these ancient seers are the Seraphon given shape."

So in short, the fans are not to be blamed for thinking the Slann remember the Seraphon into being, the old Battletome outright states this is what happened,

Yes but that still all adds up to how the Slann are needed to reform the teleported Seraphon still.

It's just gone from the vague memory stuff to show that "given shape" is the forms the Slann make for their Azyr bodies to inhabit.

The fading thing could still happen to Seraphon not properly mixed with the realm energies, it'd be like a localized version of a mortal going to a realm edge. That's why the Starborne roaming Ghur are around because their Slann is merely unconscious instead of dead as Coalescing takes quite a bit of time.

"The Coalesced slowly become more and more physical the longer they stay within the Realms, until eventually they are normal flesh and blood."

He's also able to make astro-projections of himself which goes towards the memory stuff.

8 hours ago, Grdaat said:

The Redditor also doesn't explain why they used to have the Daemon keyword even though they're no longer Daemons.

That'd be impressive from a article back in 2018. 

8 hours ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

And I would actually argue that this type of discussion proves just how far the lore has come. Look at 40k; there are infinite debates and theories and stances fans can take on what side Alpharius was really working for and when, the nature of the Ynnead and his goals, the purpose of the Dark and Cursed Foundings, etc. In Fantasy, there were similar debates and hooks and disagreements to be had (until the End Times gave us a lot of concrete answers, things like Nagash's slow return, the fates of Sigmar and Alith Anar, etc...). And now, in Age of Sigmar, we are beginning to get not only hooks like "What is Malaerion's plan with his eyes in Azyr, what is the Duradin army gathering in Chamon building towards, etc", but also debates to be had - "To exactly what extent can the Seraphon be considered mortal, can the Fyreslayers ever hope to succeed in resurrecting their god given how they use ur-gold, etc"?
And that seems like amazing growth from where we started five years ago.

Hear hear! They've really added many interesting layers to the lore over the years. Very stable continuity too when the biggest debates are over space lizards and some tombs where-as the rest is surprisingly solid for being stories over near infinite realms that progressed  nearly 400 years.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Grdaat]

3 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

Alright, to address this quotation

"From cords of glittering celestial energy they summon forth the Seraphon, a long-lost race returned to reality by the power of the Starmasters."

 

This could easily be read as

"From cords of glittering celestial energy" - to watch them appear is to see shafts of starlight fall from the Heavens

"They summon forth the Seraphon" - you can summon your bannermen or vassals, it does not have to mean they are being pulled wholesale from swirling magic

"A long-lost race returned to reality by the power of the Starmasters" -the spawning pools ran dry without the magic of the world-that-was to sustain them, until the Slann were able to infuse their temple-ships with the magic of Azyr and begin their births anew.

Explain how the living Seraphon are a long-lost race when they were just in stasis, and explain why they used to fade away when a Slann wasn't around, even though their realmgates need a Slann to operate them.

3 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

Yes, it is conceivable that my hypothetical Seraphon army could lose a war of attrition because the temple-ship cannot draw enough power to spawn new warriors quickly, but that does not stop them being warriors suffused with Azyrite magic, glowing like the ancient murals, and marching in lockstep like extensions of the Slann will - it is still possible to play up those themes without needing them to all have the word "Daemon" written across their foreheads, if that is the flavour you want and enjoy in your Seraphon.

Then they're not Daemons, which is the point.

3 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

I am saying it is possible to square the 2.0 fluff with the original lore, the same way the rough and ready fluff of, say 2e 40k can be squared with the modern stuff. Some bits take a bit more work, but its often possible. 

And it's often not. In this case there's too many times where the lore is contradictory unless you assume what's written doesn't mean what it says, but then that's still you changing the original meaning.

[Grdaat]

14 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

There's quite the difference between tribes growing up around a magic and a race having it breathed into them by a God-beast that's later the magic their spawning uses.

Except that didn't happen, Dracothion powered their ships back up, he did not fundamentally change them.

Quote

That's the parts we know so far anyway about the Starborne.

Yes. I was agreeing with you. They need the Slaan so they can be stable there and eventually mix.

Not anymore, the parts about them fading away without a Slann are gone.

Quote

I don't see why that's beyond the ability of a Slann & a realmgate. They just hold the teleportation in another spot.

We've seen naturally occurring gateways appear in stuff like tarpits when the Ironjawz attacked Nagash's city from the realm of beasts.

Except that's not how it's written. They formed out light from the water, not starlight in that instance.

Quote

That seems pretty easy to explain.

Cords of glittering energy is what Azyr magic the spawning pools draw on to form them with the reality bit just a fancy wording.

You're assuming a new meaning by ignoring what was originally written. You cannot return to reality if you never leave it.

Quote

And they're not long lost in the new lore because they've been active in the realms for centuries now with the Age of Hope instead of when they missed out in the Age of Myth.

They were never "long-lost" in the new lore because they were always around, according to the new Battletome.

Quote

Yes but that still all adds up to how the Slann are needed to reform the teleported Seraphon still.

It's just gone from the vague memory stuff to show that "given shape" is the forms the Slann make for their Azyr bodies to inhabit.

The fading thing could still happen to Seraphon not properly mixed with the realm energies, it'd be like a localized version of a mortal going to a realm edge. That's why the Starborne roaming Ghur are around because their Slann is merely unconscious instead of dead.

Hang on... have you read the Battletome? They don't have different "Azyr bodies", their bodies are the same now, and they no longer fade away without the presence of a Slann, Starborne or not.

Quote

That'd be impressive from a article back in 2018. 

They're the ones arguing they weren't really Daemons, but physical creatures, and they ignored that issue. I'm not expecting them to know that they'd lose the keyword, I'm pointing out that they didn't mention they had the keyword at the time and that they pretended it didn't matter.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[MaatithoftheBrand]

Okay so I could keep pointing out ways that thematically the Seraphon occupy a lot of the same... narrative space, if not exactly the same in-universe or out-of-universe metaphysical and mechanical space but, I don't think that is really going to advance the conversation.

 

For me, and I imagine for a great many others, part of engaging with a sprawling fantasy setting that has existed across multiple years/editions/writers is trying to square some of the elements that have changed, some of the elements that don't really work and never have, and some of the elements that aren't going to work for you and/or your group specifically. This is particularly true, I think, of things like Warhammer(s) and Dungeons & Dragons.

For some people, that involves ignoring some of the stuff that is too early or too out there - a lot of people playing in the Forgotten Realms might use an old sourcebook and mentally change all mentions of Drizzt Do'Urden as jet black to the more modern purple/grey/etc. A person roleplaying with the Dark Heresy rules rather than the more modern Wrath & Glory rules might ignore the old lore that a Daemon Prince don't need to be elevated by a single power and can remain Undivided. A person might choose to ignore the most problematic sentences that stress the otherworldly and daemonic nature of the Seraphon from Grand Alliance: Order.

Others might choose to try and blend the old and new so that all the books can broadly coexist. They might say that drow actually come in as wide a variety of skin tones as humans, and Drizz't/old artwork just disproportionately shows a minority. The Dark Heresy players might argue that Undivided Daemon Princes are just rare and elevated by minor powers within the Warp rather than one of the Four. A person might view 'daemon' as a broad framework in the Age of Sigmar setting, allowing them to narratively include all manner of not-traditionally-mortal creatures under that umbrella, including Seraphon.

 

Perhaps the latter isn't for you. And yes, some of the early lore of Age of Sigmar ranged from merely different to the current fluff all the way through to actively bad. But have you ever read Ian Watson's "Space Marine", or David Ferring's "Konrad Saga"? I don't think its particularly fair to immediately say that early missteps means that you should write off the entire setting's lore just yet. 

Age of Sigmar has some cool lore, and a lot of potential. And, if the change from the early Realmgate Wars novels to the likes of "Dark Harvest", and from the early bright, description-heavy Battletomes to the world-building and tonal weight of the Lumineth Battletome, are any indication, Age of Sigmar is going to some very good places.

[LuminethMage]

Does this even matter? It’s a new game, they re-imagined the Lizardmen as Order Space Demons, and then got feedback that a lot of people rather want their Jungle Warriors back, so GW included both, and tied it together in the new Seraphon BT.

Thats more of a GW listend to fans thing than anything else. Even if this was a retcon, who cares? Nothing in the AoS story hinges open them not being able to coalesce. It had zero negative impact on the greater setting, but made a lot of Seraphon players happy. 

[Baron Klatz]

Deleted.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Baron Klatz
Deleted. let's move on from this debate.

[Baron Klatz]

24 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

Does this even matter? It’s a new game, they re-imagined the Lizardmen as Order Space Demons, and then got feedback that a lot of people rather want their Jungle Warriors back, so GW included both, and tied it together in the new Seraphon BT.

Thats more of a GW listend to fans thing than anything else. Even if this was a retcon, who cares? Nothing in the AoS story hinges open them not being able to coalesce. It had zero negative impact on the greater setting, but made a lot of Seraphon players happy. 

Yeah, sorry for being stubborn on this.

Seraphon got changes that enhanced their flavors for everyone. Should focus on the wins all round and less on the trifling changes every new setting goes through.

I'll move on.

@Grdaat

Calling a truce. Way off topic.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Grdaat]

51 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

Snip.

I think you've misunderstood me, my point was and has always been that they've been retconned from one thing into another. Whether or not that's a good thing, or whether or not this is better is a different discussion entirely. I've been sticking to pointing out the retcon rather than if it's good or bad because people wanted to argue there wasn't a retcon.

45 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

Even if this was a retcon, who cares? 

A bunch of people apparently, since pointing out that this is was a retcon kicked off a discussion that's making up a lot of the thread.

31 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Vagaries again:

"So the voyage continued – until Dracothion arrived. The breath of the celestial Great Drake restored the temple-ships. What happened next is shrouded in mystery, but it seems that this was where the Seraphon were truly born."

Since his breath is what brought Sigmar back to life it's a good implication more happened there to the Seraphon in their chambers. That breath likely altered the ships, stasis and pools all at once to use Azyr.

A hell of an assumption. I could just as easily assume that they absorbed the energies of Azyr by living there, much like how they take in the energies of other realms and that Dracothion played no part in that. You cannot claim Dracothion changed them when you're guessing that's what happened.

Quote

Is there any part saying the that directly though?

Hold up, I don't think you intended this but you just asked me to prove a negative. Writing that is like me asking you to prove you don't know something. You're looking for a passage that says "the Seraphon do not fade away when they're no longer in the presence of a Slann" when there's no reason anyone would write that, since no Battletome directly responds to earlier Battletomes.

When I say they removed that, it's because they outright removed any mention of it. The closest we get is a mention on page 4 that if the Seraphon stay in one place for too long, the celestial energy within them fades away. No this does not mean they fade away, apparently it's part of them becoming Coalesced.

Quote

I don't have the tome but from all my discussions about it the Slann has been vital to the Starborne outside the Azyr.

Is there a part I missed where one did die and the Seraphon continued on before becoming Coalesced?

No, but page 4 outright states that if they stay around they turn into Coalesced automatically.

Quote

That or it's fancy talk for taking some out of stasis. Which might have very well put the Seraphon out of reality and time with how fast and loose the realm of heaven treats the flow of time.

That's still reality as far as Azyr is concerned though, and how does that count as "long-lost"?

Quote

Unawares to the rest of Order by secretly planning their civilizations centuries ahead which might as well be lost if they're hiding.

You'd have a point if that bit wasn't told from the Seraphon's perspective.

Quote

I call them Azyr bodies because the Slann are still necessary to reform their celestial essence forms into new physical forms for that realm.

While Slann do call down their warriors, there are several other realmgates that are not used for combat and do not require a Slann, and one that is (the Ark of Sotek) which does not require a Slann to activate it.

Quote

Unfeeling

"Starborne are the children of Azyr, filled with the light of the stars and fighting to enact the cosmic plan of their creators."

"Many Seraphon still persist in this fashion. Charged with the energies of Azyr, these ‘Starborne’ exist on a slightly different wavelength to the other realms; their weapons crackle with celestial fury, and when slain they discorporate into blasts of pure starlight. Using the translocation portals found within their arcane vessels, these beings strike precisely and without mercy. It is the slann that bind the essence of the Starborne into reptilian form"

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said the book doesn't know what it was doing. I directly reference passages like this when I point out how part of the book pretends the Seraphon aren't flesh and blood, and the other part states they are. It makes the book seem very inconsistent when it talks about how Saurus Guard are replaced (how their born, how they get their gear, what happens after), but then says stuff like this. Basically it doesn't mesh, and I have the feeling this was worked on by multiple writers with a lack of communication.

EDIT: missed the part where you said you wanted to stop, fair enough, I won't force it.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[Chikout]

One of things I enjoy most about AoS is the space it gives the imagination. It allows the player space to create their own stories within the wider framework of the setting. 

A good example is the corner of the setting that Nick Horth describes in his novels. Within his corner of the setting events have consequence, deaths of characters matter and the fall of a city would be a massive calamity. 

AOS lets any player do that against the back drop created by gw. 

In the old world the only way to create a campaign with serious stakes was to play what if scenarios. If Altdorf actually fell it would kill the setting, which is actually what happened. 

As for contradictions, when I was at school I studied two documents describing a battle in 8th century England. The two 'historical' documents had different sides winning. 

I actually like that some parts of the setting are  left open to interpretation. The fact that the myth of Katakros the undeafeted had little to do with reality made that part of the lore more interesting to me. He was essentially retconnning his own defeats into victories. 

Overall  I love that AOS is still growing. The fact that we can keep finding mythic figures like Katakros is one of the things that keeps me invested. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Chikout

[NinthMusketeer]

I have seen the argument raised many times of 'why should I care about this city/nation/whatever when the realms are so big?' And I raise two points. The first is reality. Why care about your local game store going out of business when it is only one speck of the larger hobby? Why care about the price of GW miniatures when it is only a tiny piece of your budget? It all ties to a larger, very open ended question of "why does anything matter?" The second point I raise is 40k. A single planet in the galaxy means even less than a single city in AoS, yet this issue is one that rarely raised for 40k as a setting. Because when people enjoy the setting, they find a reason to care.

Edited July 16, 2020 by NinthMusketeer

[Grdaat]

7 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I have seen the argument raised many times of 'why should I care about this city/nation/whatever when the realms are so big?' And I raise two points. The first is reality. Why care about your local game store going out of business when it is only one speck of the larger hobby?

Because I know my store in relation to other stores, if it goes out of business I know there isn't another like it within my city so I'm more invested. I don't know this to be the case clfor anything in AoS, and since cities and nations get destroyed so often, it makes them all seem disposable and easily replaced. There's no reason to be invested in them if that's the case, it would be like learning one of 40 Starbucks on your street went out of business.

7 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Why care about the price of GW miniatures when it is only a tiny piece of your budget?

Going to disagree there, GW's mini's are not cheap.

7 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

It all ties to a larger, very open ended question of "why does anything matter?"

Exactly, if nothing matters then how can you get invested?

7 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

The second point I raise is 40k. A single planet in the galaxy means even less than a single city in AoS, yet this issue is one that rarely raised for 40k as a setting. Because when people enjoy the setting, they find a reason to care.

Except 40k has very critical planets we know to be unique, that isn't the case for AoS because it's intentionally poorly defined to give its writers as much freedom as possible.

[zilberfrid]

24 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I have seen the argument raised many times of 'why should I care about this city/nation/whatever when the realms are so big?' And I raise two points. The first is reality. Why care about your local game store going out of business when it is only one speck of the larger hobby? Why care about the price of GW miniatures when it is only a tiny piece of your budget? It all ties to a larger, very open ended question of "why does anything matter?" The second point I raise is 40k. A single planet in the galaxy means even less than a single city in AoS, yet this issue is one that rarely raised for 40k as a setting. Because when people enjoy the setting, they find a reason to care.

For 40k, this is a major criticism. Nothing in the lore really matters, because a Deus Ex will always save the hopelessly outnumbered #insert faction#. Even squats are back.

For pricing, I have purchased, in late june, early july, over 400 minis for less than €200. Including shipping. This way, I can keep the workshops where people first build and paint their first d&d minis, then we can expand to Frostgrave/Rangers of Shadowdeep, and I have enough monsters for everything.

I would not do this with GW minis (if only because of their horrible size issues).

Simply because they are over 4* the price at the cheapest end. Leaders are at least 20 times the cost.

This stuff does matter to me, as I can provide the risk-free entry into wargaming and minipainting with my friends.

The scale of AoS, together with its lack of depth (Where does the food come from in Greywater? The Sylvaneth won't give it to them...) makes it ungrounded, and I can't really care about Azyr being burned to a crisp if Azyr would never function anyway.

Your whataboutism to the real world is weird. I don't care about AoS, so I don't care about my hobby shop? 

Why are those two opinions even related?

Sure, the shop has AoS models in them, but also other models, paints, people. 

Try to communicate with less false equivalencies or other fallacies in them.

[Baron Klatz]

13 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

The scale of AoS, together with its lack of depth (Where does the food come from in Greywater? The Sylvaneth won't give it to them...)

Well Alarielle is, in a way.

"Currently it is a city that never sleeps, its industry unhalting. To this day Alarielle is still trying to retake the city's grounds via raining fast-growing plants that require fast removal."

If they have a vegan diet they're set.

Plus there's the canals, their Festermere Realmgate to Azyrheim, militarized highway they heavily trade through and they're not too far away from two parts of the sea for fishing ehich is a major mortal realms food industry since the lands were corrupted by chaos.

1 hour ago, Chikout said:

I actually like that some parts of the setting are  left open to interpretation. The fact that the myth of Katakros the undeafeted had little to do with reality made that part of the lore more interesting to me. He was essentially retconnning his own defeats into victories. 

I love that too about him. He's the (un)living incarnation of "victors write the history books".

With how smugly he thought himself as still undefeated despite being killed by Archaon leaves no doubt in my mind that if he conquered the Eight-points he'd make sure the ink would smear on that bit of trivia.