So how does everyone feel about Age of Sigmar?

[Oceanic_Eyes]

Love it! It's what got me into Warhammer, and into the hobby of miniature painting.

I probably get equal enjoyment from the painting, playing, and lore that comes with Age of Sigmar. I'm very excited to see how the setting progresses.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

I have only been playing AoS since last November.  Despite a very rocky introduction to the game, I like it more than 40k currently.  In fact, I kinda want to only be playing AoS, and maybe a but of Kill Tea, for the next few months so all the people who are invariably going to come back to 40k through 9th only to state it is the worst edition ever and go back to bashing it at every turn stop playing and rant about it online.  It happens every edition even though 40k has always been 40k.

Even if that wasn't the case, I think AoS is a much better game than 40k 8th or 9th edition.  It is simple yet offers more complexity than my experience with GW games has been.  Most (including both 8th/9th 40k) GW games are complicated yet ultimately shallow experiences for me.  It is way too front loaded with list building which AoS still has as it is still a GW game.  8th/9th even doubled down on this with stratagems, and I would say stratagem bloat.  Much like D&D 3rd edition's Feat bloat.

The spoiler is a decently long story on me starting to play AoS:
 

Spoiler

 

Honestly, if you were to ask me this time last year on my chances playing AoS, I would have said never is a strong word so just shy of never.  I don't really care for fantasy.  That's not completely true.  I actively dislike Tolkien/Gygax 'generic/vanilla' fantasy.  With the idea of generic fantasy being an oxymoron that just shouldn't exist.  Up until a few years ago, I was playing a lot D&D and had been off  and on since the early 1990's.  In the 90's it was mostly fine as I really didn't know about other rpgs.  However, between rpgs I had more interest in but often couldn't find a group that wanted anything but D&D and playing D&D up to a few times a week, I became burned out with that specific kind of fantasy.

Which the one time I played the old WHFB rpg didn't impress me with the setting.  To me, Warhammer Fantasy seemed like almost every other 'fully realized fantasy setting' that was pitched by would-be Dungeon Masters would volumes of spiral bound notebooks of lore for their custom fantasy world.  Which boiled down was basically regular D&D with popular historical cultures pasted on things and elves/dwarves had like one thing different about them than what was in the Player's Handbook.

I had heard some stuff about AoS not being like that, but I figured that GW wasn't going to try and move too far off the shoulders of the giants (other popular fantasy cliches) they were on much like 40k with its sci-fi 'homages' near directly lifted from some of the best sci-fi of the 20th century.  At the same time, I had become frustrated with 8th edition and somewhat bored with Kill Team.  One in my gaming group was lobbying some of us to try AoS and an Escalation League for AoS was starting up.  I had always wanted to try an Escalation League as a painting challenge to keep up week to week.  So with all that and a new S2D Battletome coming, I started AoS.

The league was rough, really rough.  My first 500pt game was my S2D using the warscrolls with the Start Collecting box vs. OBR where I lost 0 vs. 40 (1wound = 1VP).  I had managed to kill a few Mortek Guard but they got back up.   I would have actually done better if I would had just set my army on the table and walked away as they would have lived longer.  My second game wasn't much better.  I played someone that was a strange mix of wanting to be tournament precise but didn't seem to have really read the rules beforehand.  Sure, it was basically his third game, but it was only my second (as the league forgot to even schedule a game for me the week before) but I felt I had a better grasp on some of the basic concepts.  He wasn't doing anything wrong, but each of his turns were talking an hour.  I also didn't appreciate him trying for some 'gottchas' trying to find spots I had models more than 1" from another in the unit so he could have me lose half the unit.  So after 3 hours of this, I conceded so I could just go home.  Which made him extremely happy as he got full points for the win or something.  I am not even sure the league was tracking standings.  Anyways, that was my last game in the league as it unsurprisingly fell apart.  Would have been last game anyways as I had become disgusted with it all.

I probably would have given up AoS there if it wasn't for getting in games with the person that convinced me in the first place.  It was a whole other experience.  While that person wanted to win, they didn't make super optimized lists or didn't try shady/gottcha tactics to win.  I had also finally managed to read my brand new S2D battletome which finally gave me at least a fighting chance.

 

I find myself enjoying the lore more and more.  I like the blank canvas of Age of Sigmar as a longtime PnPrpg player.  I also applaud the creators with trying something more outside the box of what fantasy has largely stayed confined in.  I can definitely see myself drifting more and more away from 40k toward AoS.  More so if AoS continues to stay largely a more 'gentleman/womany' affair compared to prepping for the next tournament-playing the tournament faux e-sport 40k has been moving toward in my area for some time now.  Neither are inherently wrong, I just don't want to play miniatures war games on the razor's edge of competition. 

[Durnaxe]

Ironically, Warhammer Fantasy is what got me into table top games despite never having played it, however every video I've watched of WHFB makes the game like an un-enjoyable mess and I'd rather punch a wasp hive then play it.
I've found I enjoy 70% of the rules, the other 30% of em I DESPISE with a severe passion. It doesn't help that NONE of my friends enjoy fantasy style games. They are all over Team Yankee at the moment. One tried to get us into Star Wars legion but after playing it, feels way to much like Kill Team (40k) and I actually like Kill team (I hate IgoUgo, oh and I play 'nids so my rules get #### on all the time.)
I only ever got to play AoS in tournaments because of a busy life. It was during the last AoS tournament (brought IJ based Warclans) I went to was so unfun that I stopped painting my bonesplitters and haven't played a game since.

ANYWAY there are 3 things that make me angry at AoS.

Why are there so many damn re-rolls and just rolling dice in general? You missed with your weapon, how are you able to re-roll that into a hit? What do you flex your swing so hard your axe or sword bends enough to hit the target? Oh you swing it again wouldn't that JUST BE ANOTHER ATTACK?!  Same with shooting, what is this Wanted! where we can curve arrow bolts and hit the target? Get rid of wound rolls or saves as well. 3 dice should not need to be rolled to hit something, more if its random damage (I'm okay with random damage).

All of the scenarios are utter garbage. I HATE all of them. Like, the level of hate that Allied Mastercomputer (AM) from "I have no mouth and I must scream" has for humans I have for the scenarios.
Every game, every scenario, is "Go hold point" and is stupid trash. GW games are the ONLY games I have ever played where that is the ONLY ####ING OBJECTIVE. Why? Why can't I do an X objective in addition to Y? Why is it I ALWAYS HAVE TO DO Y OBJECTIVE?
I'm basically a narrative only player now which means I might as well chuck all my Orruks into the garbage since the only people who play around here are all tournament players, even though I'd love to start a Legion of Azghor army.

IgoUgo can go ####### with a ##### while ##### is in its #####.  If you could only move half your army and shoot or attack with it I'd enjoy it much more, or make it more like Kill Team/Apocalypse from 40k with a more alternating action capability.

Almost everything else about this game I enjoy. I enjoy the surface level lore but after diving into more in-depth stuff in 40k, I should stick to the surface level lore or otherwise I'll be disappointed. 
I do want to play an AoS orruk in some tabletop rpg setting but that side of my friend group has no interest in AoS.

[Charleston]

In general, I love the open lore, the quite unique design of the factions, the sculpts and the possibilities offered for conversions. Meanwhile, when playing the game, I often find myself in a spot in which I really find many issues with balancing and gameplay that bug me.

1. I find initiative is really a harming design as by a single dice roll the whole game can be turned around, leaving often a player to wait for a very long period of time doing not much more than taking losses away.
2. Also, with the upgrade of the tomes from 1.0 to 2.0 gw left many factions without access to several mechanics, while other factions were provided a superior unit archetypes for thoose mechanics. In general it seems like there were two writers making the battletomes, both approaching a different powerlevel of the game.
3. Magic. You either have it or you don´t. I somehow miss a "Risk/Reward" approach like 40k has with Perils of the Warp. Meanwhile currently you need a "Magical Supermacy" as the player having more casts/unbinds tends to simply dominate the magic in the game.

[Baron Klatz]

9 hours ago, Durnaxe said:

Almost everything else about this game I enjoy. I enjoy the surface level lore but after diving into more in-depth stuff in 40k, I should stick to the surface level lore or otherwise I'll be disappointed. 
I do want to play an AoS orruk in some tabletop rpg setting but that side of my friend group has no interest in AoS.

Well if you ever decide to dive in then give "Sea Taketh" a read. It has Destruction merchants (orruks, ogors, spider grots)working alongside Order  in a Kharadron run port in the realm of death which could give you some fun narrative ideas and Orruk inspirations.

Best of luck getting more Narrative players as well. Try looking at local Facebook groups, I find that's a great way to scry out the garagehammer goers that just want to world-build in the Mortal Realms.

[JPjr]

Personally I've found the best way to get my Warhammer Fantasy fix has been setting an alert on my phone so that several times a day, every single  day for the past five years I can quickly jump onto whichever social media platform Games Workshop has posted on about Age of Sigmar and reply "bRiNG baCk FaNTAsy" and then sit back and bask in the glow of how original and clever I am.

it's either that or hanging around Warhammer subreddits like a nonce around a playground waiting for anyone to mention AoS so I can tell them how much it sucks. it's cool, I mean I spent so much time doing it that I lost my job and  my wife left me and took the kids but the new basement I've moved into is pretty cool in a grim dark way and I've named one of the rats here Karl Franz.

EDIT: LOL thought I'd check and yep there you go, don't change losers, don't ever change...

Edited July 15, 2020 by JPjr
ADDED PICTURE OF A MELT IN ACTION

[CommissarRotke]

My enjoyment (and preference) for the High Fantasy of AOS can't be untangled from my issues with GW--especially concerning prices and how they're handling having a monopoly on wargaming--but I will say I've been enjoying AOS more than WHF for the spectacular designs, ease of playing, and how much support non-2k/matched versions of play get.

Get your Warhammer Fantasy fix through the Total War games, they feel better than the tabletop ever did.

Edited July 15, 2020 by CommissarRotke

[amysrevenge]

Strictly lore-wise, it's been brought up a couple times, but WFB and AoS are extreme opposites.

In WFB, everything you do MATTERS, but you can't do anything interesting or new because the setting is locked down.

In AoS, you can do ANYTHING, but nothing can you do really matters because the setting is so open and undefined.

Both have strengths, both have weaknesses, and it's completely subjective which you prefer.  Again as was referenced above, when I was a younger more passionate man, I preferred the MATTERS of WFB, but now as a more mellow oldtimer, I'm entranced by the ANYTHING of AoS.  I genuinely think that 25 year old me would have liked WFB over AoS by the same margin that 45 year old me likes AoS over WFB.

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by amysrevenge

[Grdaat]

There are many reasons I personally don't like AoS, but the biggest one is the lack of investment. By upping the scope of the setting they ruined the scale. Why should I care if a country-sized city is about to get destroyed? The setting could just timeskip ahead again so that there's 5 more. Why should I care about the alliances between races? Those can change on a whim to fit whatever drama GW wants there to be. Why should I care that an army numbering in the millions was destroyed, or that thousands of people were eaten by ogors? One book later their replacements have arrived. There's nothing to invest me into the story because it feels like there's very little real consequences to what happens, no matter how catastrophic the events are. In Fantasy if you're playing a campaign game and Karl Franz is killed, you know that's going to have a massive impact on the setting, because you know how The Empire works and what the reprecussions of his death would be. If Archaon gets shot to death then that too is going to have massive reprecussions, here though? If Archaon goes down he'll show back up later or another will just take his spot. Did the Celestant Prime go down? Guess he'll have to wait until next week to come back. Did your "Dwarf High King on Throne" die? Just use him again as a different one that looks identical, why not.

What kind of blows my mind are the retcons GW makes to the lore, despite it only being 5 years old, and there's so many contradictions you can find within the same book that taken on its own merits, I cannot say the lore is well written by any stretch of the imagination, especially when most of it is just made up on the spot to make somebody else sound better (like having yet another character who killed Kings/Emperors we've never seen or heard of).

As far as the actual game goes, I don't find it nearly as engaging. A lot of tactical nuance is lost with the system changes, along with a lot of the unique feel each army had, as well as their customizability (and this has only gotten worse in the most recent GHB, where artefacts available to the realms were cut from 84 to 7). That's also before we get into the absurd power creep you find in the newer books GW puts out, to the point where if you're running an older army you need either a huge handicap, or winning the lottery levels of luck even if you don't do anything wrong. This is before we get to the double turn issue, which in so many games is just an instant win for whoever went second.

I also don't understand why people say it plays smoother or cleaner than Fantasy when the game itself has become much more convoluted. Sure on release and after the first GHB I could definitely agree, but before the game book was released you needed a flow chart and 4-5 seperate books to play the game (the core rules, malign portents, GHB, whichever book your scenario is in and then your army book, or more if you want to use allies) and even now it isn't much better. Anyone putting in the effort to go through all of that and learn which allegiance abilities, rerolls, allies, subfactions, wound negations, attack bonuses, Battalions and unit synergies are best for their force on top of the artefacts, endless spells and various terrain mechanics which best suit you could've easily learned WHFB, and I think people are assuming that game's a lot more complicated than it actually is. As of right now I'm pretty sure current AoS is even more bloated with special rules than 8th edition fantasy. The comparison gets worse when you look at 7th and 6th edition Fantasy which didn't have such ridiculous issues with their special rules.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[Baron Klatz]

8 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

What kind of blows my mind are the retcons GW makes to the lore, despite it only being 5 years old, and there's so many contradictions you can find within the same book that taken on its own merits, I cannot say the lore is well written by any stretch of the imagination.

Now that's not true. I've been heavily invested in the lore since it started with the Realmgate Wars and there's only been a handful of retcons. Usually to a minor writers error like with the Black Rift placement or the Glottkin origins being updated to make them realm natives.

Otherwise the lore has been very well done with changes referenced and shown as evolutions like with the Seraphon going from starborne daemons (which even in the first tome made a mention of their evolving nature) to having Coalesced natives thanks to the life energies of the realms changing their magical Azyr body structure which was even hinted in the 2017 White Dwarf as them "going native" with feral ones gaining blood.

It's been very consistent from what I've seen.

[Grdaat]

Just now, Baron Klatz said:

Now that's not true. I've been heavily invested in the lore since it started with the Realmgate Wars and there's only been a handful of retcons. Usually to a minor writers error like with the Black Rift placement or the Glottkin origins being updated to make them realm natives.

Otherwise the lore has been very well done with changes referenced and shown as evolutions like with the Seraphon going from starborne daemons (which even in the first tome made a mention of their evolving nature) to having Coalesced natives thanks to the life energies of the realms changing their magical Azyr body structure which was even hinted in the 2017 White Dwarf as them "going native" with feral ones gaining blood.

It's been very consistent from what I've seen.

I can think of two examples right off the top of my head. The first is in the Ossiarch Bonereapers book, where it can't make up its mind on whether or not Katakros chose to fight Sigmar thinking he could win, or if he was ordered to fight him while knowing he'd lose. Both are inside the Battletome and they contradict one another.

The second is the one you mention, and it's a direct retcons. In the newer Seraphon book, GW fully retconned them from being beings created as needed by the Slann, to being kept in stasis aboard starships and beamed down as needed, even outright stating they are (and therefore always were) flesh and blood. Despite changing them back to being flesh and blood the book talks about how the Coalesced are the ones who achieved "true physicality", as if the old lore was still in effect.

Even outside that we have bits like the Bonereaper prototypes apparently going unnoticed underneath cities, despite the Skaven specializing in burrowing up underneath said cities, we have books ending on cliffhangers that should be death knells for the war in question. Wrath of the Everchosen comes to mind, where it seems to imply Archaon just gave up instead on continuing his assault.

[Ganigumo]

I Love AoS. This is coming from dropping wargaming entirely after the initial axing of Fantasy and introduction of AoS.
The game rules are simple, which is great because there's enough depth in the factions, scenarios, and general strategy of the game that it won't get boring. (I also like that I don't need to reference a compendium of special rules like in Fantasy/40k)
I love the setting, it very much feels like unexplored territory, and will hopefully stay that way indefinitely, which can prevent it from becoming stale. Even the addition of new realms is a possibility, which is a huge change from Fantasy where so much was static and defined.
The new armies, and they way they built old armies into the new setting has been great.
My only issues tend to be game balance related, we are entering a world with two tiers of books, which is going to be exacerbated by the constant creep of powerful magic. Most armies have magic, but only a small handful are going to actually be able to use it, since the strong magic armies are also great at shutting down enemy magic, which is a problem since many armies need their support spells to function properly. 

[Baron Klatz]

43 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

The first is in the Ossiarch Bonereapers book, where it can't make up its mind on whether or not Katakros chose to fight Sigmar thinking he could win, or if he was ordered to fight him while knowing he'd lose. Both are inside the Battletome and they contradict one another.

It's literally both at the same time as it was for Archaon because Katakros is that prideful as an undead general who knows he can't truly die. He even counts losing the battle against Archaon in Wrath of the Everchosen as winning because he revived in a new body to continue the war and states his record of being undefeated is still unblemished.

He only counts winning the wars, not the battles since the battles are endless to and for him.

43 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

as if the old lore was still in effect.

Because it is. The tome talked about the Seraphon having to stay in stasis during the Age of Chaos which implied that some armies were conjurations by the Slaan to make up for the warriors still asleep.

 That's a handwave to allow both types of Starborne as GW knew players loved the memory star daemon concept as much as others would like a more magical "physical" star daemons change so that pleases both parties while also keeping the first tome as written by an outsider saying the Seraphon are mysteries only the celestial Stormcast would know. So players can justify still having memory Seraphon or say their memories have been replaced with waking Starborne.

It's a well done growth of a base concept that keeps just enough in the dark for fans to draw their own conclusions.

43 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Even outside that we have bits like the Bonereaper prototypes apparently going unnoticed underneath cities, despite the Skaven specializing in burrowing up underneath said cities,

So? To them that'd just be a tomb full of empty bone suits.

That's not a retcon but at best an oversight, of which is easily accounted for by either showing the Skaven that did find them just weren't interest in catacombs full of empty bone suits or just kept their finds secret to try and use at a later date for a power grab. Heck, with the Penulbrum engines being such a big part in those areas to seal the evils away they probably got their memories wiped by them.

43 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

we have books ending on cliffhangers that should be death knells for the war in question. Wrath of the Everchosen comes to mind, where it seems to imply Archaon just gave up instead on continuing his assault.

Because the campaign is still ongoing. They're supposed to be cliff-hangers for the players to use.

Like with Grand Marshal Archaon it shifts to Katakros to show him commanding the Lady of Grief to put more pressure on Archaon so right there it's a "To be continued" for the players and writers to go off of for the on-going narrative.

These aren't retcons but player friendly Narrative handwaves to build on.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Grdaat]

13 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

It's literally both at the same as it was for Archaon because Katakros is that prideful as an undead general who knows he can't truly die. He even counts losing the battle against Archaon as winning because he revived in a new body to continue the war and states his record of being undefeated is still unblemished.

So Katakros was both ordered to fight Sigmar, and chose to fight Sigmar on his own? He both thought he could win and thought he couldn't win at the same time? This wasn't a war against Sigmar, it's two separate accounts of the same single battle and they're contradictory.

13 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Because it is. The tome talked about the Seraphon having to stay stasis which implied that some armies were conjurations by the Slaan.

That would make sense if it implied that, which it didn't. Them being conjured was retconned out, instead they're now beamed down from their ships. In other words, they aren't implying that at all.

13 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

That's a handwave to allow both types of Starborne as GW knew players loved the memory star daemon concept as much as others would like a more magical physical change so that pleases both parties while also keeping the first tome as written by an outsider saying the Seraphon are mysteries only the celestial Stormcast would know.

It's a well done growth of a base concept that keeps just enough in the dark for fans to draw their own conclusions.

Except that the star daemon concept is gone because that's no longer a thing, and retcons aren't growth.

13 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

So? To them that'd just be a tomb full of empty bone suits.

That's not a retcon but at best an oversight, of which is easily accounted for by either showing the Skaven that did find them just weren't interest in catacombs full of empty bone suits or just kept their finds secret to try and use at a later date for a power grab. Heck, with the Penulbrum engines being such a big part in those areas to seal the evils away they probably got their memories wiped by them.

So why was it never mentioned until this point? You're telling me they did not care, despite knowing about the undead already? You're acting as if they're too stupid to recognize undead creatures when they routinely fight them, even before the current age the setting's in.

Also going "By the way, these were here the whole time" is definitely a retcon.

13 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Because the campaign is still ongoing. They're supposed to be cliff-hangers for the players to use.

Like with Grand Marshal Archaon it shifts to Katakros to show him commanding the Lady of Grief to put more pressure on Archaon so right there it's a "To be continued" for the players and writers to go off of for the on-going narrative.

Except the book ends with Katakros's forces being destroyed (along with Plunder being banished), him losing his gear, and Archaon and his forces were still charging through. Katakros should not have had the time to reappear in his new fortress and be able to organize and fight Archaon's forces off because Archaon would've reached it immediately after and torn right through it. The only way it makes sense for that not to happen is if Archaon just gave up, same with Be'lakor.

Saying they're handwaving away Archaon's counterattack to allow for an ongoing narrative is just lazy. It means that they're ignoring the final battle of the book and what happened in it. That ending should have been a death knell for the war, but they're pretending it's not which is exactly what I was talking about earlier.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[MaatithoftheBrand]

THE STARLIT AND THE SAVAGE

The Seraphon have long been active in the Mortal Realms – throughout the palaces and colleges of Azyrheim stand frescos from the Age of Myth depicting reptilian warriors glowing with starlight. At the beginning of the Age of Sigmar, many who encountered the Seraphon presumed them to be manifestations of Azyr not entirely dissimilar to the Stormcast Eternals. From the heavens they came, arriving in beams of luminescent brilliance.

The truth is somewhat more complex. Seraphon are fundamentally creatures of flesh and blood, albeit with celestial magic glimmering in their veins. The first of their number dwelt within vast temple-ships amid the darkness of the aetheric void. These ships soon found themselves drawn to the uppermost reaches of Azyr, where their spawning pools becamepermeated by starlit magic. Before long the Seraphon that emerged from within, as well as those dwelling within the ships themselves, were more akin to heavenly beings than living creatures as most mortals would understand them.

Many Seraphon still persist in this fashion. Charged with the energies of Azyr, these ‘Starborne’ exist on a slightly different wavelength to the other realms; their weapons crackle with celestial fury, and when slain they discorporate into blasts of pure starlight. Using the translocation portals found within their arcane vessels, these beings strike precisely and without mercy. It is the slann that bind the essence of the Starborne into reptilian form. Many Starmasters can ‘conjure’ warriors directly from their temple-ships with but a gesture; to those who witness this feat, it can seem as though the slann are crafting these creatures whole from the energies of the stars, or even their thoughts alone.

The Starborne can interact with the tangible world, but their deep connection to Azyr prevents them from achieving true physicality. As the centuries have passed however, some Seraphon temple-fleets have descended from Azyr and established permanent settlements in the Mortal Realms. As a Seraphon lingers within a realm, their inherent Azyrite nature mixes with the magical energy that forms that realmsphere. Just as the different winds of magic grew concentrated enough over time to take on physical form as the realms themselves, the Starborne will eventually gain true permanence.

Known as the Coalesced, these Seraphon have embraced their primal instincts as the light of the heavens fades within them. Thick jungles spread around their landed temple-cities, their growth hyperaccelerated by the strange waves of power that emanate from the arcane Realmshaper Engines that dot their territory. Whilst they may lack the Starborne’s mastery of space and time, the primeval fury of the Coalesced more than compensates. Whether Starborne or Coalesced, all Seraphon fight for a unified goal – the fulfilment of the Old Ones’ Great Plan, and the annihilation of Chaos.

 

-Order Battletome: Seraphon, pages 4-5

 

This passage seems to suggest that the intention of adding in the Coalesced were indeed a development rather than a full retcon, and that the Seraphon "still" are quasi-daemonic beings of Order and Starlight. They are not just living creatures, and are less "beamed down" Star Trek style than they are unwritten and rewritten back closer to the Slann or to their target in the Mortal Realms. The star daemon concept is still there. The Coalesced even still get Bravery 10 and a conjuration rule as their faction ability.

And even before the latest Seraphon Battletome, we see the Coalesced acting distinct and unlike "daemons" and "living" alike - in the Pestilens stories from Black Library, we get a few PoV shots from a Scar-Leader who is summoned into being to fight the rat-men in the worm city whose name escapes me right now. But it is very other - both more reptilian and less... present... than even the daemonic Verminlord that turns up in the story, reinforcing the idea that this being is part memory, part starlight, part magic, and exists almost entirely as an extension of its Slann master and the Great Plan.

[Baron Klatz]

15 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

So Katakros was both ordered to fight Sigmar, and chose to fight Sigmar on his own? He both thought he could win and thought he couldn't win at the same time? This wasn't a war against Sigmar, it's two separate accounts of the same single battle and they're contradictory.

Yes, that's why even with both Sigmar and Archaon defeating him he says he's undefeated. Battles don't count to him.

He knew he could win the war against Sigmar but would lose that fight as that very war is still ongoing and will keep going until either one's complete destruction.

15 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

That would make sense if it implied that, which it didn't. Them being conjured was retconned out, instead they're now beamed down from their ships. In other words, they aren't implying that at all.

No, you're simplifying it.

"Seraphon are fundamentally creatures of flesh and blood but with celestial magic glimmering in their vein. Many Seraphon known as ‘Starborne’ exist on a slightly different wavelength to the other realms thus the Slann must bind the essence of the Starborne into reptilian form and and when slain they discorporate into blasts of pure starlight. Thus Starmasters can ‘conjure’ warriors directly from their temple-ships with but a gesture. While Starborne can interact with the tangible world, their deep connection to Azyr prevents them from achieving true physicality."

They are beamed down but their Azyrian forms are still created by the Slann as they're beings of celestial magic.

 

18 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Except that the star daemon concept is gone because that's no longer a thing, and retcons aren't growth.

They're still star daemons. The Starborne are made of Azyr magic thanks to Dracothion reviving them with his breath as he did to God-king Sigmar.

28 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

So why was it never mentioned until this point? You're telling me they did not care, despite knowing about the undead already? You're acting as if they're too stupid to recognize undead creatures when they routinely fight them, even before the current age the setting's in.

Not stupid but literally everything in the Realm of Death keeps moving. Mountains of skulls chatter, fields are well tilled because the dead beneath keeping digging, etc.

Skaven seeing some non-moving bone suits isn't gonna register when everything else boney would attack them on sight in that realm.

30 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Also going "By the way, these were here the whole time" is definitely a retcon.

Only if it gets in the way of previous lore. If there's lore saying all lands beneath Shyish are empty with nary a tunnel or catacomb then it's a retcon.

Otherwise that's just an expansion.

33 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Katakros should not have had the time to reappear in his new fortress and be able to organize and fight Archaon's forces off because Archaon would've reached it immediately after and torn right through it.

Archaon's forces were near collapse and had to be mustered. They'd be in no shape to charge the bone forts which are literally made of the chaos legions the Ossiarchs kept slaughtering and building them from along with the numerous other undead factions like the NightHaunt protecting them.

The whole build-up to this campaign was Warcry because Archaon is trying to rally the weakened chaos forces from across the realms.

Archaon saved the Eight-points but they're still the under dogs here. Archaon needs time which is the big focus here. Chaos is on the back foot for once and the other factions have a chance.

38 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Saying they're handwaving away Archaon's counterattack to allow for an ongoing narrative is just lazy. It means that they're ignoring the final battle of the book and what happened in it

Nah, the final battle saved the Eight-points for Chaos but costed them Slaanesh's freedom. There's massive implications here for future plot hooks, stories and campaigns.

16 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

This passage seems to suggest that the intention of adding in the Coalesced were indeed a development rather than a full retcon, and that the Seraphon "still" are quasi-daemonic beings of Order and Starlight. They are not just living creatures, and are less "beamed down" Star Trek style than they are unwritten and rewritten back closer to the Slann or to their target in the Mortal Realms. The star daemon concept is still there. The Coalesced even still get Bravery 10 and a conjuration rule as their faction ability.

Exactly!  Thank you.

I was busy digging on the Lexicanums for those exact points.

[Kramer]

On 7/14/2020 at 3:07 PM, Overread said:

In the interests of everyone arriving alive at the other end of the journey - please don't bring your Mawcrushers onto the airship. It's all fun and games until it gets a bit irate and smashes a hole in the hull or gets panicked and tears up the rigging with its wings. You do not transport dragons/wyverns and associated breeds by airship. 

I heard that when a mawcrusher boards an airship gravity finally dares to apply itself to it. 

[Grdaat]

39 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

This passage seems to suggest that the intention of adding in the Coalesced were indeed a development rather than a full retcon, and that the Seraphon "still" are quasi-daemonic beings of Order and Starlight. They are not just living creatures, and are less "beamed down" Star Trek style than they are unwritten and rewritten back closer to the Slann or to their target in the Mortal Realms. The star daemon concept is still there. The Coalesced even still get Bravery 10 and a conjuration rule as their faction ability.

And even before the latest Seraphon Battletome, we see the Coalesced acting distinct and unlike "daemons" and "living" alike - in the Pestilens stories from Black Library, we get a few PoV shots from a Scar-Leader who is summoned into being to fight the rat-men in the worm city whose name escapes me right now. But it is very other - both more reptilian and less... present... than even the daemonic Verminlord that turns up in the story, reinforcing the idea that this being is part memory, part starlight, part magic, and exists almost entirely as an extension of its Slann master and the Great Plan.

The problem there is they still outright state "Seraphon are fundamentally creatures of flesh and blood" which immediately kills the concept of them being Daemons outright. Them having magic in their bodies doesn't change the fact that they are still flesh and blood, and Daemons are not. The reason they get a conjuration rule is because of how the rules themselves work (I'll get into it in just a second). They are also still stated to move through their "translocation portals" and that instead of being conjured, they are summoned from one location into another, as you post here with the Slann. Again, that's very different to them being Daemons, and the paragraphs you cite explicitly state that people who thought the Slann were creating their soldiers or summoning them into being were wrong.

The following paragraph is just a mess:

"The Starborne can interact with the tangible world, but their deep connection to Azyr prevents them from achieving true physicality. As the centuries have passed however, some Seraphon temple-fleets have descended from Azyr and established permanent settlements in the Mortal Realms. As a Seraphon lingers within a realm, their inherent Azyrite nature mixes with the magical energy that forms that realmsphere. Just as the different winds of magic grew concentrated enough over time to take on physical form as the realms themselves, the Starborne will eventually gain true permanence."

As I said before, this pretends as if the old lore was intact when it is not, and so it doesn't make sense. If the Seraphon are flesh and blood creatures, then how exactly don't they have "true physicality"? Why don't they have "true permanence"? If those terms aren't supposed to be used to refer to flesh and blood creatures, what do they refer to? Under Temple Cities (page 12) it says they can gain "physical permanence" by staying in one place, except they're already physical beings now so this doesn't make sense either. Under page 24 it talks again about how they can eventually take "physical form" even though they've now never lost their physical forms, and it says the same thing on page 31 in regards to animals like Razordons.

In case you still think that the Seraphon are still somehow made on the spot, let's look at their conjuration rule: " The slann leaders of the Starborne can call forth armies of Seraphon from their temple-ships in the blink of an eye." So there we go, they don't make them and apparently never have, they just beam them down. Let's also look at their Lord of Space and Time ability: " Slann temple-ships are able to transport themselves and Starborne warriors any distance in an instant." So once again it's the effect of their ships and their transporters.

Even before then though, we have this passage: "Astroliths are particularly common amongst the armies of the Starborne. The process through which a slann ‘conjures’ his warriors into existence – in reality, drawing them forth from a temple-ship"

So the book is even putting air-quotes around the idea the Slann "conjure" their soldiers.

There's also a lot of mentions throughout the book about the Seraphon spawning pools and how they're formed to begin with. This doesn't change once they settle on the ground either, the only thing that does change is whether they're on a ship or not when they crawl out of their spawning pool.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[MaatithoftheBrand]

Daemons also bleed - there are numerous models, novels, and Battletomes that discuss daemonic ichor, or else have bones and skulls as trophies or the basis of weapons. They fight with physical weapons, can interact with the Mortal Realms around them, and have their flesh rent by their enemies as physical beings. That does not make their presence in the Realms any less temporary or make them any less creatures of and from the Realm of Chaos first and foremost. What exactly about the Seraphon being Azyrite magic rather than Chaos Magic makes them not like Daemons? Other than the fact that they have the ability to bind not just to Azyrite magic but the magicks of the other Winds to be able to exist as more traditionally living creatures?

[Grdaat]

28 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Yes, that's why even with both Sigmar and Archaon defeating him he says he's undefeated. Battles don't count to him.

He knew he could win the war against Sigmar but would lose that fight as that very war is still ongoing and will keep going until either one's complete destruction.

No, the book is very clearly saying he thought he could kill Sigmar, and that he thought he couldn't kill Sigmar in the same battle. It says nothing about the wider conflict.

Quote

No, you're simplifying it.

"Seraphon are fundamentally creatures of flesh and blood but with celestial magic glimmering in their vein. Many Seraphon known as ‘Starborne’ exist on a slightly different wavelength to the other realms thus the Slann must bind the essence of the Starborne into reptilian form and and when slain they discorporate into blasts of pure starlight. Thus Starmasters can ‘conjure’ warriors directly from their temple-ships with but a gesture. While Starborne can interact with the tangible world, their deep connection to Azyr prevents them from achieving true physicality."

They are beamed down but their Azyrian forms are still created by the Slann as they're beings of celestial magic.

No they're not, they're outright stated to come out of spawning pools and the book makes it clear that they're only beamed down by the Slann, not formed by them. I go into this a bit more in my reply right before this one.

Quote

They're still star daemons. The Starborne are made of Azyr magic thanks to Dracothion reviving them with his breath as he did to God-king Sigmar.

Except as I just stated, they're outright stated to come from spawning pools. They don't get manifested like Daemons do.

Quote

Not stupid but literally everything in the Realm of Death keeps moving. Mountains of skulls chatter, fields are well tilled because the dead beneath keeping digging, etc.

Skaven seeing some non-moving bone suits isn't gonna register when everything else boney would attack them on sight in that realm.

Skaven never deal with traps? They've never seen an inanimate skeleton suddenly start to move? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous, not every body in Shyish is animated.

Quote

Only if it gets in the way of previous lore. If there's lore saying all lands beneath Shyish are empty with nary a tunnel or catacomb then it's a retcon.

Otherwise that's just an expansion.

So how exactly did the Skaven never notice and never record that every single city has a tomb beneath it? How exactly have they never attacked from these tombs when they'd make for ideal entry points, seeing as how the undead within had to leave? How has nobody found these during conflict with the Skaven, seeing as how fortifying their cities from attacks below would be a major point in defending them?

Quote

Archaon's forces were near collapse and had to be mustered.

Sorry but that's just flat out wrong. His garrison was near collapse, his army was not.

Quote

They'd be in no shape to charge the bone forts which are literally made of the chaos legions the Ossiarchs kept slaughtering and building them from along with the numerous other undead factions like the NightHaunt protecting them.

The Nighthaunt were routed by Be'lakor, and Archaon's army had already crushed the Bonereaper main force while losing comparatively little.

Quote

Archaon saved the Eight-points but they're still the under dogs here. Archaon needs time which is the big focus here. Chaos is on the back foot for once and the other factions have a chance.

Why does he need time when he crushed the main opposition and could just steamroll right on through?

Quote

Exactly!  Thank you.

I was busy digging on the Lexicanums for those exact points.

You can't find it there because it's no longer a thing. The intent of adding the Coalesced might have been to change the Seraphon, but in practice it doesn't because they work the same regardless of whether or not they're made on their ships, or made on the ground. The only real difference is ground Seraphon have tougher hides and leave corpses, which Starborne don't leave bodies and have weaker hides.

As I pointed out in my reply above, the book explicitly dismisses the idea that the Seraphon troops are created by the Slann when it talks about Astrolith Bearers.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Grdaat

[Grdaat]

1 minute ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

Daemons also bleed - there are numerous models, novels, and Battletomes that discuss daemonic ichor, or else have bones and skulls as trophies or the basis of weapons. They fight with physical weapons, can interact with the Mortal Realms around them, and have their flesh rent by their enemies as physical beings. That does not make their presence in the Realms any less temporary or make them any less creatures of and from the Realm of Chaos first and foremost. What exactly about the Seraphon being Azyrite magic rather than Chaos Magic makes them not like Daemons? Other than the fact that they have the ability to bind not just to Azyrite magic but the magicks of the other Winds to be able to exist as more traditionally living creatures?

Daemons are not spawned from spawning pools and they don't need teleportation devices aboard starships to move from one location to the other whereas it's explicitly stated the Seraphon do. Daemons might also bleed but they're not "fundamentally flesh and blood".

[MaatithoftheBrand]

Just now, Grdaat said:

Daemons are not spawned from spawning pools and they don't need teleportation devices aboard starships to move from one location to the other whereas it's explicitly stated the Seraphon do. Daemons might also bleed but they're not "fundamentally flesh and blood".

You keep describing them using "devices" to summon themselves into battle, but I am not finding any references to that at all flicking through the book - lots of references to them being pulled from the temple-ships by the thoughts of the Slann, or the magic of the Slann. Is there a page or specific passage I am missing that describes them using devices that you could point me towards?

I think, fundamentally, to my mind a race of beings that are made in some magical manner (be that by the whims and forges of cruel gods, or by the arcane pools of frog wizards) and summoned to the battlefield from an extra-planar homeland (be it a fortress of crystal, or an Aztec spaceship) by a ritualist (either cultists, or the aforementioned frog wizards) are similar enough to both be considered arcane/daemonic creatures.

 

I can see why you might disagree, but I thin if people still want their Seraphon to be Order Daemons, there are more than enough similarities and lore supporting them being arcane star lizards that they can lean into that.

[Overread]

If I were Nagash and hiding huge Tombs underneath allied cities I'd make the Tombs appear like bedrock. Those cities are VAST so it stands to reason that they'd like to have a nice stable bit of bedrock underthem. So if the tomb looks like bedrock and is surrounded by rock and magic shields it to make it look like Rock - then no insane or sane Skaven is going to invade through the rock itself.

Remembering that Skaven don't do manual digging as much as they used too. The Warpgrinder isn't grinding through dirt and mud any more, it grinds through the very fabric of reality. Skaven instead would look for openings and tunnels already dug like sewers and such. Places where they can "warp in" and run around free without having to manually do the digging. 
So chances are those tombs went hidden because there really was just nothing there to be worth paying attention too; plus there was already sewers and the like sitting above them as a much more juicy and easy entrypoint. 

[Baron Klatz]

And non-daemons don't explode into starlight. They're light versions of daemons.

It's pretty clear it's a similar case to Stormcast and their lightning charged blood. The Spawning pools form them through Azyr magic and Slann just reform the Seraphon's magical bodies once they get beamed down as their Azyr nature is rejected by the other realms which justifies the conjuration.

9 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

No, the book is very clearly saying he thought he could kill Sigmar, and he thought he couldn't kill Sigmar in the same battle. It says nothing about the wider conflict.

So prideful enough to try and slay a god while also understanding he  logically couldn't.

Sounds about right for a undefeated general whose died twice.

13 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

So how exactly did the Skaven never notice and never record that every single city has a tomb beneath it? How exactly have they never attacked from these tombs when they'd make for ideal entry points, seeing as how the undead within had to leave?

Because they're pretty clueless when it comes to Shyish. That's why one of the gnawholes dug straight into the sea of death and flooded Skavenblight with millions of undead.

And after the Necroquake any of their works would've been undone in the realm of death as the lands shifted.

16 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

The Nighthaunt were routed by Be'lakor, and Archaon's army had already crushed the Bonereaper main force while losing comparatively little.

Katakros was still able to order their commander and NightHaunt to attack the armored chaos highways so they had reserves.

18 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

Why does he need time when he crushed the main opposition and could just steamroll right on through?

Bone forts + a gateway straight to the endless legions of death straight from Shyish for reinforcements. There's no steamrolling that.

We'll probably get the siege for it in the next campaign tome.

20 minutes ago, Grdaat said:

You can't find it there because it's no longer a thing.

No I literally quoted it and how Seraphon are reformed by the Slann when they beam down.

[Grdaat]

Just now, MaatithoftheBrand said:

You keep describing them using "devices" to summon themselves into battle, but I am not finding any references to that at all flicking through the book - lots of references to them being pulled from the temple-ships by the thoughts of the Slann, or the magic of the Slann. Is there a page or specific passage I am missing that describes them using devices that you could point me towards?

Let me help you:

Page 4, under Reptilian Majesty: "Using the translocation portals found within their arcane vessels, these beings strike precisely and without mercy."

Page 12, under Temple Cities: "Even the Starborne have been known to send these gleaming golden pyramids through translocation portals, to morph areas of the material plane in line with their interpretation of the Great Plan."

Page 13, same section: "Throughout the temple-cities are translocation gateways, miniature and localised Realmgates constructed through the arcane knowledge of the slann."

Page 19, the Thunder Lizard: "The constellation’s skink priesthood has become adept at introducing minute quantities of refined Chamonite – transporting caches of the realmstone across the aetheric void through the translocation technology found within their ziggurats – to the incubation machines of their temple-cities’ hatcheries."

Page 35, under Bastilodons: "More mysterious, but no less deadly, are the Arks of Sotek. Each of these strange devices is in fact a Realmgate in miniature, connected to the deep serpent-pits that are found throughout Seraphon temples and heave with reptilian life. When an Ark is activated many of these venomous snakes will be transported to the battlefield."

I could list more examples if you need me to.

Just now, MaatithoftheBrand said:

I think, fundamentally, to my mind a race of beings that are made in some magical manner (be that by the whims and forges of cruel gods, or by the arcane pools of frog wizards) and summoned to the battlefield from an extra-planar homeland (be it a fortress of crystal, or an Aztec spaceship) by a ritualist (either cultists, or the aforementioned frog wizards) are similar enough to both be considered arcane/daemonic creatures.

Then that would also apply to vampires in the setting, considering how one particular sect of them travel.

Just now, MaatithoftheBrand said:

I can see why you might disagree, but I thin if people still want their Seraphon to be Order Daemons, there are more than enough similarities and lore supporting them being arcane star lizards that they can lean into that.

The problem is the book outright states this is not the case.