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HollowHills

How will Games Workshop push diversity in AoS?

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Being really harsh to the community within this hobby I've been to Nottingham I've been to warhammer stores up and down the country and there is no diversity. Like let's be truly honest there isn't. We have sisters of battle we have daughters of khaine you've got sylvaneth, mixed stormcast. I dont think it's made a massive difference and I dont think adding more diverse armies will either. The hobby the background the gameplay the price! It's not for everyone and I dont think releasing armies of nuns or whatever is going to do much for people outside the warhammer bubble. 

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To add to this, let's say we're still in WFB times and we're making the old world models. So we decide, "let's introduce army books and models for Nippon and Ind, find me some writers, sculptors and painters to make it happen, but make sure that a) we're not doing a caricature but something really inspired by finer details of Japanese and Indian mythology, and b) find me best people for the job".

Congrats, you just increased a chance of hiring someone with Japanese or Indian background while not being in any way racist. Being the opposite of racist, because if you hired some random brit who takes all his knowledge of source material from second hand sources at best and Wikipedia at worst, you're probably create something offensive (not only for people you're taking your inspiration from, but also for anyone knowledgeable on the subject ;)).

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I've just asked you to provide a way to hire more people of color by GW without discriminating white people at the same time. There is nothing offensive here. It would be beneficial for you and GW if you can come up with at least one idea. If you withdraw however I will respect that.

I already suggested actively reaching out to artists in the BIPOC community and increased transparency in terms of hiring policies. However, I think it would also be important to indicate steps to be taken forward to increase inclusivity and work against discrimination in the workplace. 

Keep in mind I do not work for the company and have no way of affecting their policies. Beyond voting with my dollar.

Edited by Neverchosen

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1 minute ago, dekay said:

But if I want to sculpt African faces, i will find more black sculptors good at this than white ones.

That is a racist assumption.

What would you think if somebody told you that you should look for a car engineer among white people rather than black because they have longer history with this subject and more white people work in the industry? Wouldn't you be offended by this unfair assumption?

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3 minutes ago, Icegoat said:

I dont think it's made a massive difference and I dont think adding more diverse armies will either.

Still worth the try.

 

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I mean you could ask, if ethnic minorities and women generally aren't interested in warhammer then why does it matter if the models aren't diverse?

I strongly doubt that adding more female Stormcast is suddenly going to make an inherently masculine hobby more appealing to women.

GW has adopted a left wing position though, so I'm sure we will find out if that works in the next 10 years or so.

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1 minute ago, Aryann said:

That is a racist assumption.

What would you think if somebody told you that you should look for a car engineer among white people rather than black because they have longer history with this subject and more white people work in the industry? Wouldn't you be offended by this unfair assumption?

You claim that you don't intend to be provocative, so know that this comment is.

It's not racist. It's a fact, based both on my experience as an artist observing and learning from other artists, and on the basic assumption that artists tend to create what they know.

Don't equate a race with other things, too. I won't prioritize a black or white engineer, but I sure as hell prioritize one from a company that made my car. Due to his familiarity with the subject. Of course, I might miss out on an awesome engineer from elsewhere who just happens to work on my type of car in his spare time, but I'm more *likely* to fin d a good one, looking among ones who are certainly *familiar* with this model of car.

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+++ Mod Hat On +++

+++ Poking Stick Unsheathed +++
 

Just to make this very clear now. This topic has gone off track. Can we please return to the original topic about diversity in the model ranges. 
 

I do want to say you have all been very cordial to each other and discussed your thoughts but things are starting to warm up. We want you to enjoy this forum and the game and treat each other with respect. So again, think about some of the stuff you are writing and if it may cause offence. 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, dekay said:

To add to this, let's say we're still in WFB times and we're making the old world models. So we decide, "let's introduce army books and models for Nippon and Ind, find me some writers, sculptors and painters to make it happen, but make sure that a) we're not doing a caricature but something really inspired by finer details of Japanese and Indian mythology, and b) find me best people for the job".

Congrats, you just increased a chance of hiring someone with Japanese or Indian background while not being in any way racist. Being the opposite of racist, because if you hired some random brit who takes all his knowledge of source material from second hand sources at best and Wikipedia at worst, you're probably create something offensive (not only for people you're taking your inspiration from, but also for anyone knowledgeable on the subject ;)).

Yes, that makes sense. It's a valid argument but use of it is limited to shallow scope of positions GW could ask for.

7 minutes ago, dekay said:

You claim that you don't intend to be provocative, so know that this comment is.

Now, this is ridiculous. I just changed black people for white people and drawing for car designing. If my sentence is inappropriate, so is yours.

EDIT:

I'm ending this because of Gaz legitimate note. Nobody however justified racial parities at GW or any other company. It's just evil to treat, perceive or look at people differently because of their skin color. Don't do it. It's wrong and hurts people. You won't help minorities by doing that.

Edited by Aryann
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2 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I mean you could ask, if ethnic minorities and women generally aren't interested in warhammer then why does it matter if the models aren't diverse?

Because diverse models are good not only for diverse player base. Because I like conversion opportunities and choice is always good. Because If AoS god a new faction based on, say, Indian aestethic I'd buy into this immediately not because I have any particular bond with India, nor am I of Indian descent, but I saw Baahubali and think it's a most ridiculously epic fantasy move I've ever seen and want an army like tha, and no one makes the damn models for now :D

So it's good for everyone, with added bonus of attracting more diverse player base.

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5 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I mean you could ask, if ethnic minorities and women generally aren't interested in warhammer then why does it matter if the models aren't diverse?

I strongly doubt that adding more female Stormcast is suddenly going to make an inherently masculine hobby more appealing to women.

GW has adopted a left wing position though, so I'm sure we will find out if that works in the next 10 years or so.

A more diverse range just looks cooler. I mean, the best stormcasts are the sacrosant ones. Female stormcast are just better proportionated than male ones. 

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Anecdotally in my local scene I see slightly more POC and women playing D&D, WFRP and other tabletop rpgs than I do tabletop GW miniatures games. I wonder if the blanker slate you get when you can create almost any character you can think of without being tied to an existing miniatures range partly accounts for the relative diversification of pen and paper player bases, whereas GW has lagged behind due to the large production lead-in and the large amount of established ranges that weren't really made with that stuff in mind.


Also the barrier to entry is lower so you can pick and choose who you play with a bit more and dodge creeps/racists/gatekeepers more easily

 

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9 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I mean you could ask, if ethnic minorities and women generally aren't interested in warhammer then why does it matter if the models aren't diverse

What Warhammer is isn't immutable, and if a corporation that wants to make money sees that a large chunk of the people seemingly aren't interested in its product and responds by shrugging its shoulders and saying "I guess our core business is irrevocably unappealing to more than half of the population, so it goes", making no effort to interrogate why or do anything about it, it isn't functioning very effectively

it matters for other reasons too but gonna take a punt that that's probably the way GW is looking at it, as nice as their pro-BLM statement was to read

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8 minutes ago, Galas said:

A more diverse range just looks cooler. I mean, the best stormcasts are the sacrosant ones. Female stormcast are just better proportionated than male ones. 

I am a great fan of the imaginative potential of this game. Someone making an all female Stormcast army based on classical Greek Amazonians would be an amazing, albeit expensive army to collect. 

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More diversity in the models flat out makes them more interesting to paint and play with, in my opinion.

I don't feel like I want GW to push  diversity for the sake of it. 

AoS is influenced by the real world - both the myths and legends as well as the 'modern world' 

 

The legends of the Amazons are now thought to have been inspired by the female warriors of the Scythians.  Archaeologists have realised over the past couple of decades that just because a body was buried with weapons are armour that doesn't mean it was male.  Having looked more closely they have identified female warriors in viking graves, for example.

 

I would like to avoid being lectured to by my entertainment, but I am more than happy for GW to put some female Fyreslayer or Orruk models into the ranges as they redo stuff.

 

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16 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I mean you could ask, if ethnic minorities and women generally aren't interested in warhammer then why does it matter if the models aren't diverse?

I strongly doubt that adding more female Stormcast is suddenly going to make an inherently masculine hobby more appealing to women.

Because existing fans might also want to portray more diverse people?

When the armies are more diverse, this may attract a more diverse crowd, but even if that fails, we'll have more interesting models.

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8 minutes ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

Anecdotally in my local scene I see slightly more POC and women playing D&D, WFRP and other tabletop rpgs than I do tabletop GW miniatures games. I wonder if the blanker slate you get when you can create almost any character you can think of without being tied to an existing miniatures range partly accounts for the relative diversification of pen and paper player bases, whereas GW has lagged behind due to the large production lead-in and the large amount of established ranges that weren't really made with that stuff in mind.


Also the barrier to entry is lower so you can pick and choose who you play with a bit more and dodge creeps/racists/gatekeepers more easily

 

D and d costs almost nothing to begin and play. Warhammer realistically paints plus models plus glue its hundreds easily to get an army sometimes thousands. I know from all the people I've played with and talked to about warhammer that adding more female armies and diverse armies it will not create a sudden influx of people taking up this hobby. It may attract a few more people that arent white and male. But there will be a hundred white teenage guys who take it up in turn that's the nature of this hobby. 

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Posted (edited)

Here's the thing about model diversity.

It's all grey plastic.  How do you define 'diversity' in that context? Look at the ancient Warriors of Chaos Marauders on the GW website and then look at the Bloodreavers. The 'Eavy Metal Bloodreavers have different skin colours, but there's nothing stopping you can painting them black, white, hell, purple you want to. Similarly there's nothing stopping you from painting those ancient Marauders in the same way.

Ultimately I do agree that statement was probably just another "We at [The Brand] stand in solidarity..."  because it was expected of them more than anything else. Even from the first AoS releases, most Khorne gents were shown with different skin colours, Stormcast - particularly in recent releases - have steadily seen more and more female sculpts, Black Library authors if you've ever lurked on Twitter tend to be a very left-wing bunch and hasn't lacked for putting characters of all stripes into their stories (to the point that it's sort of funny how almost every recent competent Imperial Navy officer has been a woman because they'd otherwise not find another way to include them in Marine stories). 

At the end of the day, wealth inequality is the biggest barrier to Warhammer and GW aren't going to let up on cranking the prices up anytime soon.

Edited by Clan's Cynic

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11 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Here's the thing about model diversity.

It's all grey plastic.  How do you define 'diversity' in that context? Look at the ancient Warriors of Chaos Marauders on the GW website and then look at the Bloodreavers. The 'Eavy Metal Bloodreavers have different skin colours, but there's nothing stopping you can painting them black, white, hell, purple you want to. Similarly there's nothing stopping you from painting those ancient Marauders in the same way.

Ultimately I do agree that statement was probably just another "We at [The Brand] stand in solidarity..."  because it was expected of them more than anything else. Even from the first AoS releases, most Khorne gents were shown with different skin colours, Stormcast - particularly in recent releases - have steadily seen more and more female sculpts

If you see a face, facial features are racial and gendered, and with most outfits, the body is gendered as well. Now with some very old sculpts, the face hardly resembles a mammalian face, let alone any gender.

And I do like the female Stormcast models (though not their shoes).

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Personally I think a more diverse model range can only be a good thing.

It'll mean more interesting models for painting and playing. A diverse group of writers can draw on a wider range of inspiration for lore and media. It makes the hobby more accessible and representative, and to be honest it just makes good business sense.

The idea that people are equating requests for greater variety in a toy model range as 'dangerous leftist ideology' is frankly laughable.

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Maybe it is because I live in NYC but our wargaming community here is incredibly diverse, and many of our players are happy to see GW diversify their armies to reflect that reality.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, HollowHills said:

We've also seen companies damage their relationship with their audience by pushing diversity in a way which wasn't wanted. For example, the decision to include a muscular transgender character in the last of us 2 rather than focus on the well liked male protagonist from the first game.

I have no idea what BS you're reading but Abby was confirmed as not being trans even before the game released... but apparently she has to be trans because her arms aren't sticks?? Why is it that too many men have a hard time understanding that women can in fact have muscles and be muscular?

As for the actual topic, I'll chime in alongside the other folks who've said it: it's not forcing diversity to make models that reflect real life and the people that inhabit it. It's a good thing that GW is moving away from white and male only models in both settings. Having your models and lore reflect the inherent diversity in humankind is not "left wing", it just makes sense.

Edited by CommissarRotke
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5 minutes ago, xking said:

GW has been fine,  they have models for people who just want male models and they have models for those who want female models

I just want female Kharadrons!! Common dude, our best book has a female admiral as a protagonist and the new female art from the battletome is awesome (new masks for female admirals!!!).

I'm not going to enter if it's enough or not, but from a miniature pov, it's one of the lacking things in the whole Kharadron range.

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2 hours ago, HollowHills said:

I mean you could ask, if ethnic minorities and women generally aren't interested in warhammer then why does it matter if the models aren't diverse?

I strongly doubt that adding more female Stormcast is suddenly going to make an inherently masculine hobby more appealing to women.

GW has adopted a left wing position though, so I'm sure we will find out if that works in the next 10 years or so.

GW have not adopted a 'left wing position', they have adopted an anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-homophobic position. 

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11 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I just want female Kharadrons!! Common dude, our best book has a female admiral as a protagonist and the new female art from the battletome is awesome (new masks for female admirals!!!).

I'm not going to enter if it's enough or not, but from a miniature pov, it's one of the lacking things in the whole Kharadron range.

Female steam punk dwarves are something I cannot get anywhere, even from other miniature makers. I was very close to commisioning a few bodies and heads to print to be able to include a few.

Though that Fyreslayer also looks fierce, and would be glorious.

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