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HollowHills

How will Games Workshop push diversity in AoS?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, HollowHills said:

We've also seen companies damage their relationship with their audience by pushing diversity in a way which wasn't wanted. For example, the decision to include a muscular transgender character in the last of us 2 rather than focus on the well liked male protagonist from the first game

Lol abbey wasn't trans, and most people just don't like how her inclusion in the story was handled more than anything. And I get it might be natural to assume: "well they're just saying the story is bad because if they tell you the truth - they're mad that a woman that breaks the mold plays a significant role in the story, they'll be seen and dismissed as the bigots they are"  but after playing the game I gotta say, "the narrative was a step down and the ham fisted writing of Abbey was tedious" is perfectly valid criticism. 

More on topic: freeguild kits should be updated with female options - these are ancient kits but the appeal is huge. This is an opportunity to include completely unsexualized women ranging from young and scrappy to old, scarred veterans and make boatloads of money doing it.  Daughters of khaine are amazing and I'd like to see them unchanged but another female focused faction with less focus on sexuality to balance it out would be ideal. 

 

As for skin color, it's a bit difficult to push it through narrative but I think GW is making solid progress here: simply have artists include all shades of skin in their photographed miniatures as we've been seeing with the sisters of battle and new primaris stuff. 

 

 

Edited by Mcprowlington
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8 hours ago, HollowHills said:

I can't get my head around black elves though. It just doesn't look right to me. I think its because elves are designed to have very slim European features.

If they made new elves, I dont know fire elves or something, that were sculpted to have more African features then I would paint them black as they'd look weird white.

Have you seen the dragon prince? Great example of dark skinned elves. Not for a moment I thought it looked weird.

in general paint how you think your models look coolest. But GW could do more in showing how to paint different paint colours and mix it up in their studio models. 

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51 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Have you seen the dragon prince? Great example of dark skinned elves. Not for a moment I thought it looked weird.

in general paint how you think your models look coolest. But GW could do more in showing how to paint different paint colours and mix it up in their studio models. 

I'd love that. I can easily look at my own skin tone in the right light and angle and compare, but it would be an odd thing to ask people on the streets. I need guidance on anything but "pasty white".

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Can we not have these kind of topics here please? I feel that they are add no value to our hobby, nor to the discussions. Please do not bring real life politics into a hobby forum. Thanks 

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I do hope we still get sexy feminine characters. I get that not every new female sculpt needs to have a banging rack and armour designed by Anne Summers, but I don't see why some shouldn't be. 

We still get male characters with shredded abs and pop eye biceps, so I don't see why exaggerated female bodies would be an issue in some cases.

I'd also like to see a return to big hair. Most of the new female stormcast have short butch haircuts, why not lovely flowing hair? I'm sure they can design it really nicely now.

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For everyone not wanting these topcis: Simply don't read them?

As for more diversity: Newer Model Lines seem to have a 30% female rate (Idoneth for example). I'd like that to go up to 50%.

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7 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Are Duradin sexually dimorphic?  In lots of fiction; dwarves aren’t.

Apart from what others said, when it comes to potential model design, we also know that Kharadron women fight, and they wear masks with faces of female ancestors, described as beardless. I'd very much like to see that on a model, even if it was just a single character.

52 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Have you seen the dragon prince? Great example of dark skinned elves. Not for a moment I thought it looked weird.

Arright, a bit of a controversial opinion time: Dragon prince did a good thing design wise, where many other dark skinned elf designs fail. They didn't give them facial features that humans with said skin tones would usually have. Because the problem with black skinned elves is, well, in an attempt to make them more african, artists much too often make them too human. Elf shouldn't look like a human with pointy ears. Because typical elf doesn't have a white person's face - eyes, nose, mouth, they're more often than not distinctly, well, elven. Skin tone is usually white, but if you change it to anything different, it will still look like an elf and, more importantly, if you take away the pointy ears, it will often STILL look like an elf.

I understand it's a problem in live action movies or tv series depiction of elves because someone has to play them, right? Even in Lord of the Rings not every elf looks 'right' and even the best ones only look 'kinda right' because believe it or not, even Cate Blanchett is human ;). And in LOTR they at least *tried* in some cases (Haldir nonwithstanding;)), because if you take any elf from, say, the Witcher and hide their ears, you would not ever suspect them to be anything else than human.

But for some reason many artists in media NOT requiring to base your elf on an existing human face make them just humans with weird ears. And that's stupid, no matter if they look like a black or white person. It's lazy design.

As long as we keep elves looking like fantasy creatures, they can and should have a variety of skin tones.

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15 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I do hope we still get sexy feminine characters. I get that not every new female sculpt needs to have a banging rack and armour designed by Anne Summers, but I don't see why some shouldn't be. 

We still get male characters with shredded abs and pop eye biceps, so I don't see why exaggerated female bodies would be an issue in some cases.

I'd also like to see a return to big hair. Most of the new female stormcast have short butch haircuts, why not lovely flowing hair? I'm sure they can design it really nicely now.

Daughters of Khaine, as an entire faction designed around this ideas, show that sexy outfits and big hair aren't going anywhere (and 40k's Jain Zard resculpt has the biggest hair in ages!) so there's no need to worry about that ; )

As for Stormcast hairstyles, it's funny how fantasy character designs reflect current fashions. Models have different hairstyles than 30 years ago because people do too. We don't see any stormcast rocking a mustache and afro, too. If big hair returns to mainstream in a few years and stormcast are still around, you'll probably see a shift again.

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30 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I'd love that. I can easily look at my own skin tone in the right light and angle and compare, but it would be an odd thing to ask people on the streets. I need guidance on anything but "pasty white".

Plenty of tutorials out there. My fast recipe is: dryad bark base coat -> drucchi violet wash -> mix dryad bark with a little bit of mournfang brown for the highlights. 
but just google and you’ll find enough tutorials to help you out. 

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27 minutes ago, dekay said:

Daughters of Khaine, as an entire faction designed around this ideas, show that sexy outfits and big hair aren't going anywhere (and 40k's Jain Zard resculpt has the biggest hair in ages!) so there's no need to worry about that ; )

As for Stormcast hairstyles, it's funny how fantasy character designs reflect current fashions. Models have different hairstyles than 30 years ago because people do too. We don't see any stormcast rocking a mustache and afro, too. If big hair returns to mainstream in a few years and stormcast are still around, you'll probably see a shift again.

Have you seen the Escher bountyhunters? I think they are quite recent sculpts, and their hair is glorious.

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4 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Have you seen the Escher bountyhunters? I think they are quite recent sculpts, and their hair is glorious.

Everything Esher is a tribute to the 80s, as it should be. :D

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BoneHeart said:

Can we not have these kind of topics here please? I feel that they are add no value to our hobby, nor to the discussions. Please do not bring real life politics into a hobby forum. Thanks 

It's about models, which is quite relevant to the hobby.

Existence of females, non-caucasian facial features and darker skin tones isn't political.

Edited by zilberfrid
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59 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I do hope we still get sexy feminine characters. I get that not every new female sculpt needs to have a banging rack and armour designed by Anne Summers, but I don't see why some shouldn't be. 

We still get male characters with shredded abs and pop eye biceps, so I don't see why exaggerated female bodies would be an issue in some cases.

I'd also like to see a return to big hair. Most of the new female stormcast have short butch haircuts, why not lovely flowing hair? I'm sure they can design it really nicely now.

Long flowing hair is hard, because it rests on or otherwise interacts with armour or other model bits, it works for single pose, but not multipose.

For big hair, take a look at the Escher heads from Forgeworld.

6 minutes ago, dekay said:

Everything Esher is a tribute to the 80s, as it should be. :D

That is correct. I also purchased a set. It isn't kitted out with the most useful equipment, but I just felt like making a postapocalyptic punk band with weapons.

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I'd be interested to hear what people from a non-white background think. I think it's of very limited use for white guys (myself included) to postulate on what other groups want from the hobby. Do they even care? I know I've read a couple of accounts of daughters of hobbyists seeing the female stormcast on  a box cover and exclaiming "they have models that look like me!" which is a great sign of how the hobby is progressing. 

As a hobby, i don't think it needs to be held to the standards of diversity we expect of public bodies and companies. Whilst it's important our own government represents the people they govern, a hobby based around fantasy characters is of little consequence. I think the representation of a broader range of peoples in the hobby would be great because it just makes the ranges a lot more interesting (new SCE are a great example), but ultimately it's the behaviour of hobbyists towards other groups which matters far more than the models they make. I know some hobbyists who aren't of the majority group in the hobby are entirely unconcerned with representation in the miniatures themselves as long as they don't feel ostracised from the hobby because of who they are. The worst form of corporate PR is when they pander to a zeitgeist because it will make them look good, rather than investing in a longer term, and more difficult goal, of promoting inclusiveness and a community that welcomes everyone. That comes across as cheap marketing to sell more stuff rather than a genuine interest in improving inclusivity. In that sense, any diversity in the hobby is up to us, the hobbyists and store owners.

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24 minutes ago, dekay said:

Everything Esher is a tribute to the 80s, as it should be. :D

Escher are great but it is extremely good that they're not the only/majority of female minis GW makes, as they used to be. Their whole "hyper-violent drugged-up glam-punk amazons with lasers and crop-tops and poisoned stilettos" thing is a fantastic aesthetic and cool as anything but it's quite specific. When that's the only style you have for almost any female GW miniatures (whereas for male minis you have... everything else), that's limiting and frankly unwelcoming.

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Wen a percent comes into a store with his 11 year old daughter to find some thing to paint for the first time and she wants to paint a girl. there has to be options she can choose from

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7 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

The Soulbound RPG has several female duardin. Here is a slayer. The RPG is developed together with GW, it's not something they push just by themselves. 

 

Screenshot 2020-07-08 11.48.24.png

That is some awesome art.

 

Thanks all!

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45 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

Escher are great but it is extremely good that they're not the only/majority of female minis GW makes, as they used to be. Their whole "hyper-violent drugged-up glam-punk amazons with lasers and crop-tops and poisoned stilettos" thing is a fantastic aesthetic and cool as anything but it's quite specific. When that's the only style you have for almost any female GW miniatures (whereas for male minis you have... everything else), that's limiting and frankly unwelcoming.

I agree entirely. They fit right in with Witch Elves (and to a lesser extent the rest of DoK), but I'm glad that's not all.

Only with the reintroduction of Sisters of Battle would I think there's about an equal amount of female models outside of Escher and DoK as within these two.

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3 hours ago, BoneHeart said:

Can we not have these kind of topics here please? I feel that they are add no value to our hobby, nor to the discussions. Please do not bring real life politics into a hobby forum. Thanks 

I just wanted to say I couldn't disagree more. If we refuse to accept the possibility that we might have anything to gain by having g discussions here then all we will do is telephone over the bias' and prejudices from the real world into the hobby.

I too would like the hobby to be a refuge from the teal world, however I think that as part of that we should be able to be grown up enough and considerate enough to consider other peoples experiences and make sure that the hobby remains an escape for everyone, not just the people who happen to think and look like me.

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2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

For everyone not wanting these topics: Simply don't read them?

To divert for a single post. Sometimes people won't want "these types of discussion" not because they don't want greater diversity within their playgroups nor a greater diversity of different cultures within the model range as a whole; but more because sometime discussions like this (as well as things like politics and religion) can spark up fights between people. They can fragment a population, often because of different attitudes, but also, esp online, because people express themselves poorly and that can result in a fight between people who otherwise in the real world, would never have fallen into fights. 

 

It's a reason the mod team is keeping a close eye on a thread like this. Our view is we are welcoming and want to allow people to discuss this topic, at its best it can result in new ideas and new, more inclusive attitudes and awareness within the gamer population. This might well result in people walking away with ideas to help their local groups be more inclusive and help grow them in new directions. In general growth is great for everyone - more gamers means more games to play and more money entering the pot locally (supports local stores) and at the company end (more money - more investment - more models!). 

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13 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

Speaking from my pulpit as a straight white dude, I am in no way pushed aside by the occasional, and by occasional I mean up to and including going over 50%, diverse miniature.  And I'm reasonably upset at the suggestion that I might be so fragile that I would be bothered by increased diversity.

What should they do?  Lots. More.  So much more.  Significant percentages of female models for any races that have sexual dimorphism.

What should they avoid?  Yet another army of buff dudes.  Anything that smacks of stereotypes or exaggerated racial features of RL groups.

Dear God. This. I totally agree. I'd enjoy the game MORE if it were MORE diverse, both from a hobbying perspective and from a more diverse set of opponents (Although my current ones are also great). 

Also from a business standpoint, it makes total sense. They are only currently tapping a small percentage of their possible market share (mostly white men at well under half the population) and could tap the other 70% with better marketing. Some more diverse minis and paint schemes and tutorials would go a long way. 

I think they are already going this way. The latest space marine video they put out for 9th edition featured the sisters of battle quite heavily. I think that was intentional,  partly from a gender balance perspective (although maybe they also want to sell their cool new sisters minis')

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Something I'm a bit confused about...

Why the need? 

The factions in Warhammer are armies. Fact is, armies are predominantly male. The U.S. army is only 14% female and the U.K. Army is only 11%. If we include more female models, this will not be like real armies. 

Now, I get that Warhammer is fantasy, not reality. "These aren't real armies, so there can be more representation than in real life!"  But in Warhammer, aren't these armies led by strong, beefy men going to be, essentially, protecting the women and children? 

They could be doing it out of chivalry, or a belief that women must be protected so that they can lead in the cities and empire themselves. Additionally, some armies simply cannot be imagined with a female counterpart. Can you imagine a female orc? I can't ( though this will certainly lead to someone finding a picture of a female orc).

However, I will agree that a lot of armies would benefit from more diversity in race.

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At least in Dark Heresy rpg, among the members of the Tyrantine Cabal (a group of high ranking inquisitors) several are women and one is dark-skinned. The Inquisition has different problems, it seems. 😎

 

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+++ MOD HAT +++

Just a reminder folks, if you wish to rant, please take it elsewhere.  Thanks

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25 minutes ago, MKsmash said:

Why the need? 

We want more pretty models and watched Xena in our youth. 😉

Or, more seriously, we want our Cities armies (allegedly hailing from huge variety of biomes, cultures and lifestyles) consist not only of renaissance Germans.

29 minutes ago, MKsmash said:

Now, I get that Warhammer is fantasy, not reality. "These aren't real armies, so there can be more representation than in real life!"  But in Warhammer, aren't these armies led by strong, beefy men going to be, essentially, protecting the women and children? 

They can also be, like 40k teaches us, say, warrior nuns fighting to protect their faith. Or more locally, priestesses fighting to spill blood for sacrifices.  Or literally any other group fighting for any other reason.  I mean, that's why we want diversity. To have more interesting factions.

27 minutes ago, MKsmash said:

Can you imagine a female orc?

Absolutely, and not in a comedic caricatural way. It would be fun to see them represented, especially that fighting females would hammer the point 'all that they do is fight' even more. Entire society does that, there's no civilians (also, reproducing through spores is very 40k and would be nice to move away from it in AoS)

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