How will Games Workshop push diversity in AoS?

[sandlemad]

36 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

If GW is taking the notion of diversity seriously it is something that they need to institute in hiring policies and creative decisions. The representation of BIPOC individuals in the games and narratives is important but it is important to have that reflected in the company as well. If they hire more diverse writers, designers and management it will likely be reflected in the game as a whole and encourage more people to enter into the hobby.

Absolutely this. Not only does broadening the range folks involved in creative decisions improve it and decrease the chance of something stupid or insensitive being put out, making a song and dance about the product while still having the company be overwhelmingly white and male is a bit rubbish. Like they can put out all the female or BIPOC models they want but if they're going to have cases like the former head of Forge World and current lead on the Old World project say racist stuff towards fans in public, it's going to come off as pretty empty.

[HollowHills]

22 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

Absolutely this. Not only does broadening the range folks involved in creative decisions improve it and decrease the chance of something stupid or insensitive being put out, making a song and dance about the product while still having the company be overwhelmingly white and male is a bit rubbish. Like they can put out all the female or BIPOC models they want but if they're going to have cases like the former head of Forge World and current lead on the Old World project say racist stuff towards fans in public, it's going to come off as pretty empty.

Didn't he just compare him to Nick Fury or something? Everyone was laughing and it was clearly a joke. 

[sandlemad]

2 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Didn't he just compare him to Nick Fury or something? Everyone was laughing and it was clearly a joke. 

He singled out one of the only POC in the room, made a joke based purely on the colour of his skin, and then had the entire room of white people laugh at him. Josh Mallett was made to feel alienated and deeply uncomfortable in a hobby space he was previously excited to be in because of something he had no control over. Cottrell clearly wasn't setting out to be malicious but it was uncaring and hurtful nonetheless (and not the first time he's done this sort of thing). That's the kind of casual, thoughtless racism that having a more diverse staff-base is liable to stop.

[Overread]

I think it would be wise if we could keep this thread in general terms and not get into debating specific cases. I say this because in any case of insult there are always multiple ways in which a scene can be interpreted - already we've got two different interpretations being presented by people both relying on the facts presented by a single interpretation of the event. Ergo people who weren't there interpreting what happened based on interpretations of others. It can lead us down a merry lane of ever increasing divergence in interpretation. 

 

In the end how we interpret a specific situation doesn't matter as we aren't judges weighing the event for judgement. What matters is the interpretation of those who were present and who were the focus of the event itself. One would hope that where there is conflict between those interpretations one might find some grounds to mediate between the parties involved to come to a mutually agreeable resolution. Hopefully in cases like this, one that doesn't involve fining/firing/banning/punishing. Instead one that results in increased awareness and respect of others and one where both sides can move on past the event in a positive direction. 

I'd rather see people learning from mistakes and working toward a greater tolerance, respect and understanding of different groups.

[Aeryenn]

1 hour ago, Neverchosen said:

If GW is taking the notion of diversity seriously it is something that they need to institute in hiring policies and creative decisions. The representation of BIPOC individuals in the games and narratives is important but it is important to have that reflected in the company as well. If they hire more diverse writers, designers and management it will likely be reflected in the game as a whole and encourage more people to enter into the hobby. 


I find it ridiculous that people are arguing that women in the military lack a historical precedent but are okay with magic, demons and trolls. Female soldiers have existed in history,  so it is a little embarrassing that slightly better representation than what has existed in history or contemporary society is where people's incredulity begins and ends. 😅

This is exactly why leftist ideologies are so dangerous and harmful.

You don't see the obvious that your expectations are extremely racist. You want GW to fire white people and hire people of color. You want to treat white people worse just based on their color of their skin.

If you don't ensure equal chances for each person to apply for a workplace and want to apply parities you are in fact discriminate a certian group of people.

Qualifications (education, expierience, etc.) of a person should be the only criterion for a job. Not their gender, race, religion.

If you want people of color to have special reliefs or additional points while applying for a post you are looking down on them with superiority because you suggest that they need special treatment and unfair help to get a job. This is absolutely racist.

If I were from a minority and got the job just because company wanted to implement leftist ideologies I would feel ashamed and humiliated.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Aryann

[Neverchosen]

1 minute ago, Aryann said:

This is exactly why leftisdiscriminate

You don't see the obvious that your expectations are extremely racist. You want GW to fire white people and hire people of color. You want to treat white people worse just based on their color of their skin.

If you don't ensure equal chances for each person to apply for a workplace by applying parities you are in fact discriminate a certian group of people.

Qualifications (education, expierience, etc.) of a person should be the only criterion for a job. Not their gender, race, religion.

If you want people of color to have special reliefs or additional points while applying for a post you are looking down on them with superiority because you suggest that they need special treatment and unfair help to get a job. This is absolutely racist.

If I were from a minority and got the job just because company wanted to implement leftist ideologies I would feel ashamed and humiliated.

I never said anyone should be fired, just that they should be more inclusive with hiring policies if they want to truly reflect their statements. 

[MaatithoftheBrand]

1 hour ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said:

Nappy wearing dwarfs who burn magical gold into their own skin because they believe it to be the fragments of their shattered god: Yes. Good

Elves who refashion themselves into the peak of mental acuity and martial perfection by using crystals to drain out their negative emotions, while using a particular class of magic user to torpedo the leftover bad emotion slurry at their enemies: great. Go on. Keep em comin

Trans people: no

 

I am assuming this is a joke that the text-based nature of the internet has failed to adequately convey to me.

If it is not, why is a trans- individual less believable or acceptable to you than Fyreslayers or Lumineth? If it is a "historical accuracy" issue (and others have done a far better job than I could explaining the... uselessness of applying those kinds of ideas to Age of Sigmar), then instead of having a trans Stormcast or similar, would you be more okay with the idea of a human culture in the Mortal Realms having three genders/Two-Spirit inspired groups within their society as that is not a "modern PC" term and so isn't ruining the accuracy of AoS

[Aeryenn]

Just now, Neverchosen said:

I never said anyone should be fired, just that they should be more inclusive with hiring policies if they want to truly reflect their statements. 

You can't force hiring more people of color without doing what I've mentioned above. You either treat everyone equally or you discriminate one group by hiring based on race.

[Neverchosen]

Just now, Aryann said:

You can't force hiring more people of color without doing what I've mentioned above. You either treat everyone equally or you discriminate one group by hiring based on race.

I never said "force", I think there is a lot of projecting going on here.

[sandlemad]

3 minutes ago, MaatithoftheBrand said:

I am assuming this is a joke that the text-based nature of the internet has failed to adequately convey to me.

Pretty sure this one's a joke about the ludicrousness of being ok with all sorts of magical nonsense in your setting but not the actual RL existence of trans people. It's based off this tweet: 

 

[Overread]

5 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

I never said anyone should be fired, just that they should be more inclusive with hiring policies if they want to truly reflect their statements. 

Are we sure that GW isn't already equal opportunities with regard to their hiring policies? Remember there's always two sides to hiring for diversity - the people doing the hiring AND those turning up to be hired. It might well be that as GW often recruits from within the hobby community itself (more so than some other firms I would wager) then if the hobby pool itself has a population bias then that is going to carry through to the company. Ergo you can't easily hire people of a certain diverse background if they aren't turning up to the interviews to start with. 

It's the kind of change that can take a long time to filter through populations as attitudes and as populations change because the changes can be slow to materialise. 

 

 

As for the whole aspect of forced diversification hiring policies that's a minefield of opinions on both sides with valid points both for and against such changes. 

[Aeryenn]

Just now, Neverchosen said:

I never said "force", I think there is a lot of projecting going on here.

Go on. Explain me how GW should hire more people of color without treating them special while they apply for the same position as a white guy.

[Neverchosen]

6 minutes ago, Aryann said:

Go on. Explain me how GW should hire more people of color without treating them special while they apply for the same position as a white guy.

They could actively pursue working with sculptors and writers, which is something they currently do anyway. Giving one artist a job does not necessarily take the work away from another. 

@Overread I do not know their hiring policies, but a lot of companies are exploring different avenues of outreach and are being more transparent about their approach. I do not think that GW is going to do a perfect job but it would be nice if they indicated what if any practices they maintained in regards to diversification.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Neverchosen

[Aeryenn]

And they should choose those sculptors and writers based on their skin color?

[zilberfrid]

22 minutes ago, Aryann said:

This is exactly why leftist ideologies are so dangerous and harmful.

You don't see the obvious that your expectations are extremely racist. You want GW to fire white people and hire people of color. You want to treat white people worse just based on their color of their skin.

If you don't ensure equal chances for each person to apply for a workplace and want to apply parities you are in fact discriminate a certian group of people.

Qualifications (education, expierience, etc.) of a person should be the only criterion for a job. Not their gender, race, religion.

If you want people of color to have special reliefs or additional points while applying for a post you are looking down on them with superiority because you suggest that they need special treatment and unfair help to get a job. This is absolutely racist.

If I were from a minority and got the job just because company wanted to implement leftist ideologies I would feel ashamed and humiliated.

This is really putting politics in the thread. Please don't. Your replies fit too well with your username, and I'd really rather not be pushed to that correlation.

[Aeryenn]

6 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

They could actively pursue working with sculptors and writers, which is something they currently do anyway. Giving one artist a job does not necessarily take the work away from another. 

@Overread I do not know their hiring policies, but a lot of companies are exploring different avenues of outreach and are being more transparent about their approach. I do not think that GW is going to do a perfect job but it would be nice if they indicated what if any practices they maintained in regards to diversification.

And they should choose those sculptors and writers based on their skin color?

[dekay]

1 minute ago, Aryann said:

Go on. Explain me how GW should hire more people of color without treating them special while they apply for the same position as a white guy.

Not who you're asking, but I'll answer anyway ;): Ensure more of them apply for the job, mostly. Create a welcoming environment. Increase representation on models and artwork (like they're already doing, so it's quite possible the process is already underway), distance themselves from more controversial parts of the fandom (post that started this thread and recent World of Warships debacle show they're already on it), continue doing so, and wait.

Reach out to artists, sculptors and writers, because they're sometimes freelance and that's how companies hiring freelancers work.

Just now, Aryann said:

And they should choose those sculptors and writers based on their skin color?

Skin colour isn't everything but hiring artists from different backgrounds can give new ideas and points of view. I mean, up until recently, no women wrote from black library and now that they started, Rachel Harrison is pretty great and, yeah, among other things, she created some new interesting female character.

You're not hiring a black artist because he's black, you're hiring him because, for instance, you like how he paints black people and you want more illustrations like that.

[Aeryenn]

Just now, zilberfrid said:

This is really putting politics in the thread. Please don't. Your replies fit too well with your username, and I'd really rather not be pushed to that correlation.

I didn't bring up this topic. I share my opinion. I will rename my nick as I keep hearing it disturbes people. It's not an argument though. If you think I'm wrong with what I wrote,please provide an argument.

[Aeryenn]

6 minutes ago, dekay said:

Not who you're asking, but I'll answer anyway ;): Ensure more of them apply for the job, mostly. Create a welcoming environment. Increase representation on models and artwork (like they're already doing, so it's quite possible the process is already underway), distance themselves from more controversial parts of the fandom (post that started this thread and recent World of Warships debacle show they're already on it), continue doing so, and wait.

Reach out to artists, sculptors and writers, because they're sometimes freelance and that's how companies hiring freelancers work.

Skin colour isn't everything but hiring artists from different backgrounds can give new ideas and points of view. I mean, up until recently, no women wrote from black library and now that they started, Rachel Harrison is pretty great and, yeah, among other things, she created some new interesting female character.

You're not hiring a black artist because he's black, you're hiring him because, for instance, you like how he paints black people and you want more illustrations like that.

Don't you see that the very idea of hiring people based on their skin color is racist? Even despite the means to reach that goal you start to divide people by their race. Skin color should never be brought up when we compare people for a job. What meaning does it have? Either we agree that skin color has nothing to do with a person's qualifications, or we implement diversification policies. If race doesn't matter, why should any company try to hire more people of certain skin color? It's a contradiction.

[Neverchosen]

@dekay put it into very eloquent terms. It isn't about hiring someone simply due to the colour of their skin, but more about increasing their talent pool while also reflecting the world we live in. 

@AryannI am sorry that we will not come to terms on this subject as we have differing ideological view points. 

[Galas]

What I have learned about this thread is that theres a ton of people that has never read a piece of lore about how Chaos society both in AoS and in Fantasy worked. Chaos is much more than heavy metal cover-like armies marching south to rape an burn down everything, guys.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Galas

[Aeryenn]

1 minute ago, Neverchosen said:

@dekay put it into very eloquent terms. It isn't about hiring someone simply due to the colour of their skin, but more about increasing their talent pool while also reflecting the world we live in. 

@AryannI am sorry that we will not come to terms on this subject as we have differing ideological view points. 

I've just asked you to provide a way to hire more people of color by GW without discriminating white people at the same time. There is nothing offensive here. It would be beneficial for you and GW if you can come up with at least one idea. If you withdraw however I will respect that.

[Jefferson Skarsnik]

If people say they "only  hire the best people for the job" but they hire a disproportionately small number of women/non-white people from their populace, then they aren't hiring the best people for the job, they're just hiring the best men/white people for the job. Pointing out existing e.g racial inequalities doesn't artificially force race into the conversation, it acknowledges the racial issue that is plainly already there

 

People similarly say "my hiring processes are based on merit alone, but black people aren't interested in applying in my company/industry!", and although this often turns out to be basically untrue anyway, it also is presented as if its evidence that there isn't a problem, when in fact if accepted on the face of it it is very clearly evidence there is a big problem

Edited July 8, 2020 by Jefferson Skarsnik

[dekay]

Just now, Aryann said:

Don't you see that the very idea of hiring people based on their skin color is racist? Even despite the means to reach that goal you start to divide people by their race. Skin color should never be brought up when we compare people for a job. What meaning does it have? Either we agree that skin color has nothing to do with a person's qualifications, or we implement diversification policies. If race doesn't matter, why should any company try to hire more people of certain skin color? It's a contradiction.

I don't honestly. Most of what I know about drawing African faces I learned from the people of African descent. Because where I'd have to do research, they have their entire life's experience of looking in the mirror. That's often their go-to face type they draw. They're more educated on the subject than I am. And if I wanted a picture of a black person, I'd first start looking among black artists because it increases my chances of finding a good one for the job.

When I paint my model dark skinned, I must look up references, someone else just has to look at their hand holding a brush.

What people often get wrong about anything anti racist is thinking that it's about negating all the differences between people. And it isn't. People obviously are different, look at them, they look differently. No one says it's racist to think so. Skin color, in MOST cases, has nothing to do with a person's qualifications. But if I want to sculpt African faces, i will find more black sculptors good at this than white ones. 

And, as said, race isn't the only factor, background is as well. And writing/worldbuilding/whatever-wise If I want to introduce a faction taking inspiration from any real world culture, I'll do best to seek out creators immersed in that culture because that way it's less likely we'll create something dumb. If that faction is based on a culture from somewhere people aren't white, it's very likely most good writers/artists and designers specializing in this won't be white.

There's no contradiction here.

[zilberfrid]

17 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I didn't bring up this topic. I share my opinion. I will rename my nick as I keep hearing it disturbes people. It's not an argument though. If you think I'm wrong with what I wrote,please provide an argument.

You're talking about "Leftist" and generalising it as bad on one specific bit that is somewhat part of the discussion. I don't want to type more about it as it won't change your mind, and you won't change mine. 

I'd rather talk about models.

When thinking about models, something like the Atlantis female dwarves, Frostgrave wizards or Soldiers 2 are warriors or wizards that happen to be female. With the Frostgrave set, you also have different facial features.

Edited July 8, 2020 by zilberfrid