Interesting scenario came up in a game FEC vs Lumineth

[Ghoooouls]

Okay so I played FEC and played against Lumineth.

 

At one point, it was my opponents turn, he had killed enough of my ghouls to capture the objective they were on.

 

However, I had the chalice up, and so 16 ghouls came back and I Congo lined them to the objective that his cow had just killed a load off, meaning I now outnumbered him on said objective.

 

My question is this - it was my opponents turn, and both calculating objective scoring and ghouls returning from the chalice are done 'at the end of the turn'.

 

So does he capture it, score and then my ghouls come back? Or does he not capture it because my ghouls come back? Which happens first?

 

We played that he captured it, then scored and then my ghouls came back, seeing as how it was his turn we decided it was best to use the rules similar to 'start of phase' abilities, where the player who's turn it is does all their 'start of phase' abilities before the opposing player does their 'start of phase' abilities and then the phase properly commences.

 

Anyone able to confirm this?

Edited July 5, 2020 by Ghoooouls

[Marrdt]

Core rules, page 13.
Under Warscrolls, Abilities:

 

Quote

If both players want to use abilities at the same time, the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities first, followed by their opponent.

Edit: Haven't been able to find a reference to whether the end of turn scoring is considered an ability. Will keep looking.
 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Marrdt

[Marrdt]

I was looking through the Core rules and all the Erratas and I could not find how the "Game rules" are ordered in relation to the player abilities.

One way to look at it is that the "Game" has its own "abilities" or triggers which always take precedence over any other abilities, which is essentially what you guys did. Its what I would have done as well.

EDIT: You could argue the other way around as well I guess. Active player - inactive player - game. Something that needs to be agreed upon, by the players involved.

Maybe someone else can figure out a better answer from the rules resources available to us.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Marrdt

[Ghoooouls]

39 minutes ago, Marrdt said:

Core rules, page 13.
Under Warscrolls, Abilities:

 

Edit: Haven't been able to find a reference to whether the end of turn scoring is considered an ability. Will keep looking.
 

Yeah this is what we did essentially. Although looking back on it, the endless spell is not 'my' ability, the endless spell is it's own model and triggers at the end of both players turns if that makes sense?

 

I guess I paid the points and I cast it, but still it has it's own ability that triggers at the end of both turns.

 

I think it makes most sense to follow the rules we did otherwise it creates some fairly unfair situations.

[Ghoooouls]

14 minutes ago, Marrdt said:

I was looking through the Core rules and all the Erratas and I could not find how the "Game rules" are ordered in relation to the player abilities.

One way to look at it is that the "Game" has its own "abilities" or triggers which always take precedence over any other abilities, which is essentially what you guys did. Its what I would have done as well.

EDIT: You could argue the other way around as well I guess. Active player - inactive player - game. Something that needs to be agreed upon, by the players involved.

Maybe someone else can figure out a better answer from the rules resources available to us.

Yeah, it's a weird one for sure and I'm surprised it hasnt had an faq!

[EMMachine]

24 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

Yeah this is what we did essentially. Although looking back on it, the endless spell is not 'my' ability, the endless spell is it's own model and triggers at the end of both players turns if that makes sense?

 

I guess I paid the points and I cast it, but still it has it's own ability that triggers at the end of both turns.

The Chalice of Ushoran is triggered by the active player. This is stated in the Errata:

Quote

Page 86 – Soul Stealer
Add the following:
‘The player whose turn is taking place must pick which
eligible Flesh-eater Courts units are affected.’

Were the Ghouls the only unit that could return models, because in your opponents turn your opponent choses which units heal wounds or get Models back.

He is actually only resticted to units that can be healed or can return slain models.

So the Chalice is definetly a player ability used by the active player while looking who controlls an objective is a game ability.

[Ghoooouls]

22 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

The Chalice of Ushoran is triggered by the active player. This is stated in the Errata:

Were the Ghouls the only unit that could return models, because in your opponents turn your opponent choses which units heal wounds or get Models back.

He is actually only resticted to units that can be healed or can return slain models.

So the Chalice is definetly a player ability used by the active player while looking who controlls an objective is a game ability.

The errata only states that the active player chooses which to heal, the first sentence of the spell rule is still 'at the end of each turn roll a dice....' so the chalice triggers from the game phases, the player who's turn it is then gets to choose which units to apply this to, but they must be applied and in this situation it was only ghouls nearby. I then choose where to put them back on the board.

 

The question is whether this happens before game scoring or not, which I assume it should but definitely not clear.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Ghoooouls

[Barbatus]

In the end, someone discovered what goes first at the end of each turn? Chalice or scoring?

sorry to resume an old post, but maybe meanwhile someone got some official info 👀

[EMMachine]

Has nobody ask this question at AOSFAQ@gwplc.com in halve a year? This would have been the way to get an official solution either with an FAQ or an Errata Change of the Chalice.

I still think checking if an opjective is captured is an ability that belongs to non of the players so it should be checked after both players have made their end of the turn abilities.

[NinthMusketeer]

The core rules do need a section clearly resolving multiple things happening at the same time.

In the meantime we have this old article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/

This situation would default to the third option, wherein the current player decides the order, because objectives are still an action taken by the player: "At the end of each player's turn, you must check to see..."

[Fulcanelli]

Yep, I know that article. It's pretty clear, though the third situation says "several friendly units that can do something" and units are indeed under my control.

Actually, it would be more logical to think like @EMMachine suggest. 
Chalice sure is a player ability, but checking objective points seems a 'super partes' ability, a game mechanic, that occurs at the end of the player's stuff...