Jackroks981 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, RuneBrush said: Think @Sleboda has summed up the use of the word meta really well One of the confusing things within our hobby is that we frequently mis-use terminology/words. Quite often this stems from when a term was used correctly and over time it's meaning has been subverted into meaning something different. Why can this be bad? Because it can cause confusion for players and worse still if you use it in a different context with different people, you can look like a berk. I believe I'm right in saying that metagaming within the wargaming hobby was at one point used when you'd design an army list specifically to beat another army list - the list building "game" being treated as a sub-game. So if I knew I'd be facing army X with a specific build, I could use a counter build to improve/guarantee my chances of winning before even rolling a dice). It's not a massive leap to see why "meta" has come to represent the current trend of army builds (even if the word is used incorrectly). But that’s the great thing about language right? They constantly evolve, I’m from a physics background and people constantly misuse scientific terminology on a dailybasis. Doesn’t mean they’re using the word incorrectly though, words can have multiple definitions and those definitions sometimes change over time. Because @Sleboda understands origin of the word doesn’t make everyone else’s use of the word incorrect, it’s just nit-picking for the sake of it. Edited June 25, 2020 by Jackroks981 4 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/21/2020 at 7:57 AM, Jupiter said: 2+ nagash with teleportation and super saves. It's bonkers, played against them yesterday also with a completely op archeon army so it was really fun. But if your army doesn't allow crazy op stuff it's not fun, not even close. Just out of curiosity, how do you make an Archaeon list op???? I have never seen anything remotely to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jupiter Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 32 minutes ago, Kurrilino said: Just out of curiosity, how do you make an Archaeon list op???? I have never seen anything remotely to that Was not my army(borrowed it) , so don't remember all the details. It used a warshrine with prayers giving archeon 1+ sv and all kind of rerolls, skarbrand with banner for extra attack for max mortal wounds and another bloodthrister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Wait, aren't we early? I thought @Sleboda's next rant against "meta" wasn't scheduled until July. Hahahaha 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Kurrilino said: Just out of curiosity, how do you make an Archaeon list op???? I have never seen anything remotely to that With zero experience with the list, the one I have seen with Archaon that interested me the most was this: Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness - Damned Legion: Host of the Everchosen (Eighth Circle) Mortal Realm: Aqshy Leaders Archaon the Everchosen (800) - General- Aura of Chaos: Nurgle- Spell: Mask of Darkness Chaos Lord (110) - Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110) - Artefact: Ignax's Scales- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle- Spell: Mask of Darkness Battleline 20 x Chaos Marauders (150) - Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle 20 x Chaos Marauders (150) - Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle 20 x Chaos Marauders (150) - Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle 20 x Chaos Marauders (150) - Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle Behemoths Chaos Warshrine (170) - Mark of Chaos: Nurgle Battalions Plaguetouched Warband (180) Total: 1970 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 This is on the Honest Wargamer site, some swedish dude had a bunch of success with it That said, I myself try to make him work in Hedonites of Slaanesh, gotta stay true to my first and currently only army I got^^ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Jupiter said: Was not my army(borrowed it) , so don't remember all the details. It used a warshrine with prayers giving archeon 1+ sv and all kind of rerolls, skarbrand with banner for extra attack for max mortal wounds and another bloodthrister. Are you guys sure you played it right? The plus 1 sv is played on Nurgle units. The +1 attack banner is in the Khorne allegiance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jupiter Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 28 minutes ago, Kurrilino said: Are you guys sure you played it right? The plus 1 sv is played on Nurgle units. The +1 attack banner is in the Khorne allegiance. It was a khorne allegiance army. Archaeon has all the keywords so receives all the benefits. With the skull alter you can reroll failed prayers. If the warshrine which is a khorne priest is within 8 inch. With the banner you give Archaeon extra attacks but most importantly skarbrand which has the carnage ability, if you roll a 6 it does 16 mortal wounds, with 2 attacks very common. So yeah I would call that a broken army haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, Jupiter said: It was a khorne allegiance army. Archaeon has all the keywords so receives all the benefits. With the skull alter you can reroll failed prayers. If the warshrine which is a khorne priest is within 8 inch. With the banner you give Archaeon extra attacks but most importantly skarbrand which has the carnage ability, if you roll a 6 it does 16 mortal wounds, with 2 attacks very common. So yeah I would call that a broken army haha. This is not how it works. The reason for Archaeon is seen as overpriced and useless is that he has to chose a mark before the battle. He doesn't have all marks throughout the battle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jupiter Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 OK not my army but will let him know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jupiter Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 28 minutes ago, Kurrilino said: This is not how it works. The reason for Archaeon is seen as overpriced and useless is that he has to chose a mark before the battle. He doesn't have all marks throughout the battle It's not my army, but I can't find anything on his warscroll that he has to pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Jupiter said: It's not my army, but I can't find anything on his warscroll that he has to pick. It's written in the StD book and counts for all heroes or abilities where you could have all marks. Pg.67 to be exact under Aura of Chaos Edited June 25, 2020 by Kurrilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jupiter Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, Kurrilino said: It's written in the StD book and counts for all heroes or abilities where you could have all marks. Pg.67 to be exact. Right but what if you play khorne army book and not std. Crazy rules these days, I remember the days you could actually read the warscroll and apply those rules. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 Just now, Jupiter said: Right but what if you play khorne army book and not std. Crazy rules these days, I remember the days you could actually read the warscroll and apply those rules. Lol. So in other words the +1 save is coming from the Prayer (probably from a Slaughterpriest, but possibly from the Warshrine) called Bronzed Flesh which gives +1 to save rolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, Jupiter said: Right but what if you play khorne army book and not std. Crazy rules these days, I remember the days you could actually read the warscroll and apply those rules. Lol. This is unfortunately the most common outcome. People switch to other God's books because STD simply don't cut it. So yeah, you will be better of player BoK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, Ravinsild said: So in other words the +1 save is coming from the Prayer (probably from a Slaughterpriest, but possibly from the Warshrine) called Bronzed Flesh which gives +1 to save rolls. Exactly, so you don't need a warshrine anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Third said: With zero experience with the list, the one I have seen with Archaon that interested me the most was this: Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness - Damned Legion: Host of the Everchosen (Eighth Circle) Mortal Realm: Aqshy Leaders Archaon the Everchosen (800) - General- Aura of Chaos: Nurgle- Spell: Mask of Darkness Chaos Lord (110) - Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110) - Artefact: Ignax's Scales- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle- Spell: Mask of Darkness Battleline 20 x Chaos Marauders (150) - Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle 20 x Chaos Marauders (150) - Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle 20 x Chaos Marauders (150) - Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle 20 x Chaos Marauders (150) - Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle Behemoths Chaos Warshrine (170) - Mark of Chaos: Nurgle Battalions Plaguetouched Warband (180) Total: 1970 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 This is on the Honest Wargamer site, some swedish dude had a bunch of success with it That said, I myself try to make him work in Hedonites of Slaanesh, gotta stay true to my first and currently only army I got^^ I somehow doubt that someone has great success not knowing what they do. Would someone explain me why this army is an "Eight Circle" army???????? There is not a single Varanguard in there. And both wizzards have the same spell seems questionable to say at least Edited June 25, 2020 by Kurrilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 +++ MOD HAT +++ Please can you move army list discussions to the appropriate Grand Alliance area folks? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphanism Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 (edited) When anyone at my local LGS says 'meta' they usually mean 'the environment of the North Atlanta area as it pertains to the competitive game I am currently talking about'. And it's a lot easier to say quickly. Here in the south we're all about shortening words to make them quicker, ya'll. 🤠 When we have (er, had) tournaments that pull from nearby states though, I did notice that Petrifix was treated as the big boogyman, even after both us Death players hovered around he bottom tier. It was a very strange willful disillusionment for my opponent to be explaining to me all about how Petrifix needs a nerf and is way too strong as he secured a Major Victory on turn three. Edited June 26, 2020 by Euphanism 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indecisive Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 I sure feel like spellcreep is a thing Some factions, is it even worthwhile to try and cast spells anymore? Some factions dominate magic a little too well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 47 minutes ago, Indecisive said: I sure feel like spellcreep is a thing Some factions, is it even worthwhile to try and cast spells anymore? Some factions dominate magic a little too well. Yes for example teclis. seems a bit cheap for what he can do, considering how he wasn’t that much better then thanqoul in the old world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuminethMage Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said: Yes for example teclis. seems a bit cheap for what he can do, considering how he wasn’t that much better then thanqoul in the old world Is he? You can have Lord Kroak, a Slann and a Skink Priest on the field. Or a Gaunt Summoner, a Lord of Change and the Balewind Vortex. Or play Hallowheart and go with a Luminark (/w Battlemage), a Celestrial Hurricanum (/w Battlemage) and a Battlemage. Each for the same points. How about at least waiting until a faction or model is released and see how it plays out before complaining they are too cheap? To the general point of "spellcreep": There are some factions which dominate the shooting phase, some which dominate charging or combat. If we want diverse armies with different play styles that cater to different people and tastes, you have to allow for these. Of course, some abilities can be too strong and have to be brought in line (and one spell in the Lore of Hysh might be like that for example), but that's not specifically a problem of armies that are strong in the magic phase. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whispersofblood Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 33 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said: Yes for example teclis. seems a bit cheap for what he can do, considering how he wasn’t that much better then thanqoul in the old world LRL don't have clan rats. Also Teclis became a god during the End Times, Thanqoul only has a god sized ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, whispersofblood said: Thanqoul only has a god sized ego. That’s all he needs to survive.😛 Edited July 1, 2020 by Skreech Verminking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 26 minutes ago, whispersofblood said: LRL don't have clan rats. I’m not sure what clanrats have to do with magic but good point, unless you want some meatshield units that are only their to die-die for 120points for 20. can’t blame you. (although I wish they came in unit sizes of 60) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whispersofblood Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said: I’m not sure what clanrats have to do with magic but good point, unless you want some meatshield units that are only their to die-die for 120points for 20. can’t blame you. (although I wish they came in unit sizes of 60) If you include Teclis in your army a LRL is probably capped at about 80-90 models. Despite the power of their magic it's still an objective game at the end of the day. This is essentially the same arguments we had about the game as a forum when HoS were at the fore. The game is interesting because there is a radar of strategies that each faction has spikes on, and we get sucked in trying to nerf individual steps on the path to a relatively complete game. The armies at that spike at extremes exist but ultimately they are playing the same game and as a player you need to be able to modulate how you play that game in a match up. HoS at launch would have been an excellent counter play to LRL forcing certain concession at the build phase. But, as they are HoS are basically a dead faction, too fragile to play the objective game and insufficient combat to even take people off objectives. As a LRL player I can fully lean into maxed range dmg or essentially target priority choices because there isn't an army with enough tactical depth to cause second thought. Then we compound this by ignoring the social and economic forces that make certain armies appear more powerful than they should. While releasing new armies into a wonderful rod they weren't tested in. Essentially I hate the tinkering we are doing with AoS and I don't think changes should be made outside of GHB. I believe it is making the game worse for the average gamer, and having the opposite effect on the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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