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CP tied to game size


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The 9th edition of 40k is coming and one change is that you have CPs tied to game size (like 6 for 1000p game, 12 for 2000p game)
Dont know if that is a rumour or not.

But I think this would be very useful for AoS too, as I feel some command abillitys are way to powerful for 1000p games.
For Example Command Abilitys like Rally the Tribes from S2D or FECs Summon Imperial Guard are not well balanced for smaller games.
The Abhorrant Archregent brings 20 ghouls to the table - no 1000 point army can handle that.

So maybe only 1/2 point per round if you have a 1000p game. Not sure if that hits the nail on the head (sorry for my german English 😁)

What would you propose?

 

 

Edited by Sonnenspeer
Abhorrant Archregent rule corrected
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Could be a solution. I personally don’t run into it often in my matchups but if a command ability is too good it needs a tweak.

trouble is that how would you scale abilities that gain command points? 
will that help or hurt armies like gloom spite that seem to built to take advantage of them? 

on the other hand if it’s only summoning abilities that are wonky. Maybe that should scale. So ghoul king only summons 10 ghouls at 1K. The gaunt summoner only blue horrors instead of pink. And the current amount at 2K. 

Edited by Kramer
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28 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

The 9th edition of 40k is coming and one change is that you have CPs tied to game size (like 6 for 1000p game, 12 for 2000p game)
Dont know if that is a rumour or not.

But I think this would be very useful for AoS too, as I feel some command abillitys are way to powerful for 1000p games.
For Example Command Abilitys like Rally the Tribes from S2D or FECs Summon Imperial Guard are not well balanced for smaller games.
The Abhorrant Archregent brings 20 ghouls to the table every round - no 1000 point army can handle that.

So maybe only 1/2 point per round if you have a 1000p game. Not sure if that hits the nail on the head (sorry for my german English 😁)

What would you propose?

 

 

The Archregent is only once per game though and not very round! Yes he’s good but not absurd and by spending a CP on summon as the errata means he can’t free summon next to the throne the FEC player is costing themselves a feeding frenzy. Since the FEC point and rule changes the Archregent is a pretty balanced hero. Yes you can be reductive and say he’s 240 points but summons 200 however there’s a 50 point nominal value in the CP plus ghouls I would argue are over pointed On the whole specifically due to the army summoning. 

It’s tough to tailor things as I would make the argument that a number of armies and game mechanics work very differently at 1k compared to 2k not just summoning. 

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Or put a point cost to sumon as before,because we have had a general handbook with this absurd free sumon and all us have seen that it isnt balanced.

 

So end the experiment and balance the game because free units ALLWAYS gonna be overpower

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9 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

The Archregent is only once per game

You are right! So thats a little relief

43 minutes ago, Kramer said:

on the other hand if it’s only summoning abilities that are wonky. Maybe that should scale. So ghoul king only summons 10 ghouls at 1K. The gaunt summoner only blue horrors instead of pink. And the current amount at 2K. 

I think that is a good idea for house rules, thank you!

Spoiler

12 and a half ghouls for my usual 1250p games then 😆

 

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I don't know what it's like in 40k, but in AoS the things that cost command points don't really balance with each other well.  It would be tricky to re-balance them at the "how many command points do you get" level, just because the things that are really good are still really good (just less often) and the things that are less good are still less good.  But then the only alternative is to balance them at the "what do you get for a command point" level and that's a whole lot of things to look at.

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I think the main problem with CP in AoS is the difference in surplus between factions. Some armies absolutely swim in CP and basically never have to make any hard choices about when to use them. Other armies claw and scratch to get 1 or 2 each round. There's a clear economic imbalance. GW needs to decide with the next edition whether they want CP to be extremely limited and make every decision to use them a difficult one; or they can decide to give everyone tons of CP to be used at their leisure. The current system of have's and have-not's doesn't work right now.

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I'd actually prefer a system where any hero that has a command ability can use it once per turn or something similar. simple and effective. 

Anything to speed things up is a win imo. 

 

I also think that each hero should get an artifact regardless of battalions but that's another topic..

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It's actually both sides of that economy that need a look.  There's the haves and the have-nots as far as how many CPs they receive, and there are also haves and have-nots as far as useful things to do with them.  Some of my armies I spend every CP pretty much as soon as I get them, other armies I finish the battle with 3 or 4 unspent.

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The ideas of the new 9th ed. 40k seem to be easily transferable to AoS imo.

I like the CP System and I like the idea of taking action at objective markers instead of treating them as passive VP suspenders. (I am talking about trading a shooting phase of a unit to plant a flag on the marker of to perform a ritual and the likes).

Edited by JackStreicher
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3 hours ago, Doko said:

Or put a point cost to sumon as before,because we have had a general handbook with this absurd free sumon and all us have seen that it isnt balanced.

 

So end the experiment and balance the game because free units ALLWAYS gonna be overpower

I like it. Do more of it. Just don't make it in game 'free'. That's the only problem. Why does stuff automatically come with a summon. 
Make the gaunt summoner successfully cast a spell two turns in a row and then he attracted enough attention of Tzeentch for his summon. That allows play and counterplay. 
Let the Archregent kill a model so that the ghouls on the edges of the battlefield become inspired and join in. 
The Beast of Chaos summoning is fantastic. You can built into it, opponents have an urgency to tackle those heroes near the herdstone. 

Also the points for summoning experiment wasn't all that good either. 

Ah well in the end, there is always going to be something that stands out the most. If it isn't summoning, it's activation wars, or something else. This is just how I would change summoning, if it needs changing at all. 

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4 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Ah well in the end, there is always going to be something that stands out the most. If it isn't summoning, it's activation wars, or something else. This is just how I would change summoning, if it needs changing at all. 

This is a great point.  Looking at summoning is particular is one thing, but activation wars is a more frustrating thing for me.  At least you get to fight against the unending swarm of summoned forces, but if you lose the activation wars all you get to do roll is saves and take off you toys.

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1 hour ago, Vasshpit said:

I'd actually prefer a system where any hero that has a command ability can use it once per turn or something similar. simple and effective. 

Anything to speed things up is a win imo. 

 

I also think that each hero should get an artifact regardless of battalions but that's another topic..

This! I miss the customisation you had with heroes in oldhammer. I’m not too keen on how artefacts work at the moment either and don’t see why we can’t just pay additional points for them. Seriously the LoN battalions are pretty bad and taking one of them just to get another artefact is madness. Which also feeds into command points, if Nagash is on the table you’re using his command ability almost every time and it’s hard to generate more than 1 a turn in that army so blood feast is a no go. :(

Edited by El Syf
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4 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

The Archregent is only once per game though and not very round! Yes he’s good but not absurd and by spending a CP on summon as the errata means he can’t free summon next to the throne the FEC player is costing themselves a feeding frenzy. Since the FEC point and rule changes the Archregent is a pretty balanced hero. Yes you can be reductive and say he’s 240 points but summons 200 however there’s a 50 point nominal value in the CP plus ghouls I would argue are over pointed On the whole specifically due to the army summoning. 

It’s tough to tailor things as I would make the argument that a number of armies and game mechanics work very differently at 1k compared to 2k not just summoning. 

The Archregent can summon for free next to the throne.  The Errata only applies to the 2nd sentence of the rule.  It's still not overpowered though since the points changes.

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I could see this being done in the future but it would take a complete rework of the entire CP system including every unit with a CA. 40k 9th might be the starting of that kind of experiment though. CP generation, refunding, stealing...all that would need to be redone. Not to mention the tons and tons of units with CA's, some of which would be hilariously broken if they had a greater pool of CP to draw from. 

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I think the new CP system within 40k was to identify a very specific problem within the game where you could specifically build wonky armies to achieve additional command points.

What's nice is that it shows GW are happy to completely rehash specific bits of the game to improve them.  I'd say it's too soon to see if we'll get something like this with AoS as command points are built into the way a lot of armies work (stratagems work very differently to command abilities).  However it's possible that in a couple of years we may find command points get changed a bit when we get the next edition of AoS.

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13 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Thanks you, guys! So the conclusion is we have a problem with summoning, not CP, but we may can take some ideas from 9ed 40k 👍

[Brainstorming] One solution could be a mix between both systems:
- CPs tied to game size.
- Summons use CP.
- Unique army mechanics like the Blood Tithe could be build in some type of CP battery (to help  pure summoning lists). 

Something like that could work, sacrifice CP to summon, and the game size will stop any snowball and still there is some type of counter-play for the oponent.

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21 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

12 and a half ghouls for my usual 1250p games then 😆

 

21 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

So 12 ghouls and one that's not entirely there?

You could do one ghoul who can only move or only attack.

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The Problem with the comparrision between CP in AoS and 40k is that in AoS we get 1 point per round while 40k has the maxiumum of points at the start of the game.

In 8. Edition 40k it was 3 Points Core + X Points for each Detachment (and you can have more than 1). So an Elite Army has 4-5 Points because their detachments only generate 1 Point, while someone who has cheap core infantry could basicly spam CP and start with 12-20 CP that can be used by the elite stuff. Players playing multiple Detachments and/or playing multiple factions are favoured here.

From the rumores for 9th Edition they turn this arround that you start with maybe 12 CP but your detachments cost CP (except the coredetachment with the Warlord). That way monodetachment Lists get favored over multidetachment Lists. (Basicly like the Allegiance Rules of AoS where a Monofaction has better Allegiance Abilities.

Now we have AoS where you get 1 CP per round + 1 CP at the start of Game per Battalion + maybe addition CP if a model has a ability for it.

So if you don't get Command Abilities for free you have 1 maybe 2 CP to use or you have to wait rounds to get more CP.

The only faction that has many points at the moment are the Ossiarch Bonereapers because they have their own System.

Without Command Abilities for Free, most of the time you will have more options to spent points than points in your pool (so the decisions matter).

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7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

The Problem with the comparrision between CP in AoS and 40k is that in AoS we get 1 point per round while 40k has the maxiumum of points at the start of the game.

In 8. Edition 40k it was 3 Points Core + X Points for each Detachment (and you can have more than 1). So an Elite Army has 4-5 Points because their detachments only generate 1 Point, while someone who has cheap core infantry could basicly spam CP and start with 12-20 CP that can be used by the elite stuff. Players playing multiple Detachments and/or playing multiple factions are favoured here.

From the rumores for 9th Edition they turn this arround that you start with maybe 12 CP but your detachments cost CP (except the coredetachment with the Warlord). That way monodetachment Lists get favored over multidetachment Lists. (Basicly like the Allegiance Rules of AoS where a Monofaction has better Allegiance Abilities.

Now we have AoS where you get 1 CP per round + 1 CP at the start of Game per Battalion + maybe addition CP if a model has a ability for it.

So if you don't get Command Abilities for free you have 1 maybe 2 CP to use or you have to wait rounds to get more CP.

The only faction that has many points at the moment are the Ossiarch Bonereapers because they have their own System.

Without Command Abilities for Free, most of the time you will have more options to spent points than points in your pool (so the decisions matter).

They've also added the +1 CP per turn in 40k no? 

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4 hours ago, Ninelives said:

They've also added the +1 CP per turn in 40k no? 

I haven't seen all abilities (even though I should have most of the books, but focus myself on AoS lore at the moment) but I would actually say no. They have heroes that give additional points at the start of the game and they have Abilities that let regenerate CP with a dice roll when using a stratagem.

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