Is Destruction missing something?

[Kadeton]

On 8/11/2020 at 1:57 AM, Frowny said:

Barbarian humans straddling order and destruction (naturalistic but vicious)

I think this cuts right to the heart of the Destruction faction's identity problems. Tribes of human barbarians already have a strong presence in the game - where are they? Chaos.

And that's the fundamental issue with Destruction, in my opinion. They're the collection of leftover armies that thematically would fit right in to the Chaos allegiance except for the fact that fluff-wise, they don't worship the right gods. That and the strong tendency towards green skin are the only meaningful distinctions, and it leaves the faction as a kind of afterthought in the ongoing narrative.

If all the Destruction armies simply became "unaligned" and kept their current ally options, would there be any appreciable difference?

[Grim Beasties]

10 hours ago, Kadeton said:

I think this cuts right to the heart of the Destruction faction's identity problems. Tribes of human barbarians already have a strong presence in the game - where are they? Chaos.

And that's the fundamental issue with Destruction, in my opinion. They're the collection of leftover armies that thematically would fit right in to the Chaos allegiance except for the fact that fluff-wise, they don't worship the right gods. That and the strong tendency towards green skin are the only meaningful distinctions, and it leaves the faction as a kind of afterthought in the ongoing narrative.

If all the Destruction armies simply became "unaligned" and kept their current ally options, would there be any appreciable difference?

I have to disagree that the destruction line up would fit chaos thematically, and their mythology and the gods they worship is a big part of it. Chaos is a primeval power that seeks corruption of all things into it's being. It will take the hope, honour, intelligence, passion and twist them into a darker truth. Destruction is animalistic in nature, the primal need for violence and desire to crush, stomp, stab, and to tear down the refined works of civilization into rubble. While each of the destruction factions have there own beliefs, gods, and reasons, they are all tide to Gorkamorka and the great WAAAGH!

[Overread]

I think through AoS we are perhaps going to see Destruction slowly become more than just the mindless barbarians that tear and smash. Whilst that is certianly a big part of them and will likely remain true for many of the classic species of orruk and goblin; I think there's room to add far more depth to the whole Grand  Alliance and its concepts. To give them more than to just be the "less intelligent baddies" for the main story. 

[Evil Eye]

One faction I would like to see make a return and get their own army (along hopefully with nice new models) is the Fimir. They're currently in Destruction in the Monstrous Arcanum book, so it's not like they'd be Alliance-hopping, and honestly of all the forgotten Warhammer races they're one of the coolest IMO. Plus the FW minis are gorgeous. You could probably do a lot with their lore as well; perhaps have them as a race with a particular dislike of Chaos due to their mutant origins. On top of that, they could work very well as a foil to the other Destruction forces- whilst the Ogors and Orruks are strong and violent but brutish, impetuous and occasionally dimwitted, and the Grots are sneaky and conniving but also cowardly and individually weak, the Fimir are few in number, but immensely powerful individually and also both ambitious and intelligent. They'd know well their own weaknesses (mainly lack of numbers) and the weaknesses of their "allies" in the other Destruction forces. In addition, rather than instinct, simple-minded violence or the influence of an unholy celestial body driving them to tear down civilization, they have more of a vendetta. Being creatures warped by Chaos, forever shunned by right-thinking folk and condemned to a life of lurking in shade, the Fimir have a particularly spiteful hatred for the other Alliances; Chaos for twisting them into what they are today, and Order for shunning them (also Death, for much the same reason as everybody else- Nagash is a nasty piece of work!).

In terms of gameplay, aside from being rather elite much like Ogors and thus an individual Fimir being a terrifying foe, being the "smart ones" they'd have access to much better equipment than other forces of Destruction, as they are actually capable of and interested in making their own things (as long as the outcome is the ruin of their foes). This also means actual artillery, be it scavenged or constructed themselves. I'm thinking they'd have access to a few nasty, gribbly monsters, but rather than straight-up big brutish beasts of the Ogors or Orruks, they'd have some of the weirder ones, perhaps even some of the other forgotten critters of Warhammer lore. Overall they'd be a funny combination of Ogors and Gloomspite, with the elite nature of the former and the weird and sneaky abilities of the latter.

[Nezzhil]

@Evil Eye I love the idea. The old Behemat lore says this:

"Brodd carries a huge granite pillar – both his symbol of rulership and his weapon
in times of war. The stony artefact was a part of the old Behematian Temple that
once crested Tor Crania, a monolithic structure toppled by cyclopean mutants long
ago. "

 

Brodd lives in a swamp area, so we will think the cyclopean mutant face were the Fimir and, of course, they will be a builders in Destruction. It will be a bit contradictory, but if the constructions are for be safe and hunt enemies make sense. The Destruction races aren't dumb, the Gloomspite build undercities and the ogors have big villages were the Overlords live.Brodd lives in a swamp area, so we could think the cyclopean mutant face were the Fimir and, of course, they will be a builders in Destruction. It will sound a bit contradictory, but if the constructions are for be safe and hunt enemies make sense. The Destruction races aren't dumb, the Gloomspite build undercities and the ogors have big villages were the Overlords live.

Not all the factions are nomads, the nomad-destruction relation was the AoS1.0 Lore as we can't say that Death are all mindless in the actual Lore.

[Grim Beasties]

10 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

@Evil Eye I love the idea. The old Behemat lore says this:

"Brodd carries a huge granite pillar – both his symbol of rulership and his weapon
in times of war. The stony artefact was a part of the old Behematian Temple that
once crested Tor Crania, a monolithic structure toppled by cyclopean mutants long
ago. "

 

Brodd lives in a swamp area, so we will think the cyclopean mutant face were the Fimir and, of course, they will be a builders in Destruction. It will be a bit contradictory, but if the constructions are for be safe and hunt enemies make sense. The Destruction races aren't dumb, the Gloomspite build undercities and the ogors have big villages were the Overlords live.  

Part of me thinks it might be cygors but that implies that ancient SoB/sky Titans used magic, and it could be likely. I hope the race is Fimir because gives them a bit of that Albion/Celtic mythology and that's the best.

The rest is also 100% correct

[Kadeton]

10 hours ago, Grim Beasties said:

I have to disagree that the destruction line up would fit chaos thematically, and their mythology and the gods they worship is a big part of it. Chaos is a primeval power that seeks corruption of all things into it's being. It will take the hope, honour, intelligence, passion and twist them into a darker truth. Destruction is animalistic in nature, the primal need for violence and desire to crush, stomp, stab, and to tear down the refined works of civilization into rubble. While each of the destruction factions have there own beliefs, gods, and reasons, they are all tide to Gorkamorka and the great WAAAGH!

Yeah, ideologically they've been constructed somewhat differently, but that's mainly by writer fiat. Ogors are a pretty good example of this - they've been given (IMO fairly tenuous) ties to Gorkamorka, but GW could just as easily have decided that they were a Chaos faction instead, and written their fluff appropriately. Similarly, the Beastmen have been granted to Chaos for historical continuity, but it would be easy to re-write them as a Destruction faction without changing any of their game elements. Skaven could similarly be re-fluffed very easily to join Destruction, as they're very much on the fringes of Chaos as it is.

Both allegiances are positioned using tropes of rampaging hordes, might-is-right leadership, and wild monsters. They exist to provide existential threats for the forces of Order to oppose - that's more the level I'm thinking of when I say they're too similar. You can layer nuance on top of that to give a sense of specific differences in agenda, but they still play the same role in the overall story.

[Grim Beasties]

28 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Yeah, ideologically they've been constructed somewhat differently, but that's mainly by writer fiat. Ogors are a pretty good example of this - they've been given (IMO fairly tenuous) ties to Gorkamorka, but GW could just as easily have decided that they were a Chaos faction instead, and written their fluff appropriately. Similarly, the Beastmen have been granted to Chaos for historical continuity, but it would be easy to re-write them as a Destruction faction without changing any of their game elements. Skaven could similarly be re-fluffed very easily to join Destruction, as they're very much on the fringes of Chaos as it is.

Both allegiances are positioned using tropes of rampaging hordes, might-is-right leadership, and wild monsters. They exist to provide existential threats for the forces of Order to oppose - that's more the level I'm thinking of when I say they're too similar. You can layer nuance on top of that to give a sense of specific differences in agenda, but they still play the same role in the overall story.

I'd say that I'm in agreement with most of what you say, my disagreements are mainly subjective in nature of the use of nuance. But I would like to know what you feel destructions role in the grand narrative should be or how it can be improved.

[Kadeton]

31 minutes ago, Grim Beasties said:

I'd say that I'm in agreement with most of what you say, my disagreements are mainly subjective in nature of the use of nuance. But I would like to know what you feel destructions role in the grand narrative should be or how it can be improved.

If I'm honest, I'd do away with the Grand Alliances altogether. They were a necessary stopgap when army books were scarce, but they've since gone past irrelevant and into the realm of counter-productive. Trying to cling to unifying themes or roles for arbitrary collections of unique and disparate forces (many of whom can't even ally with each other!) actively hinders the growth of those forces beyond the original scope of their Allegiance.

[Grim Beasties]

31 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

If I'm honest, I'd do away with the Grand Alliances altogether. They were a necessary stopgap when army books were scarce, but they've since gone past irrelevant and into the realm of counter-productive. Trying to cling to unifying themes or roles for arbitrary collections of unique and disparate forces (many of whom can't even ally with each other!) actively hinders the growth of those forces beyond the original scope of their Allegiance.

Interesting, maybe this topic would merit a post of it's own

[Beastmaster]

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

If I'm honest, I'd do away with the Grand Alliances altogether. They were a necessary stopgap when army books were scarce, but they've since gone past irrelevant and into the realm of counter-productive. Trying to cling to unifying themes or roles for arbitrary collections of unique and disparate forces (many of whom can't even ally with each other!) actively hinders the growth of those forces beyond the original scope of their Allegiance.

You’re absolutely right. Ogors, for example, always had a strong mercenary theme. They even have a unit (Maneaters) that stresses this point. They should be able to ally with many forces outside Destruction. Others don’t really fit into the GA system, too.

I mean, the whole game is based on „everyone fights everyone all the time“. The fixed Grand Alliances stand in the way of how the game is working, and of what storylines are possible. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Beastmaster

[OrcaLullaby]

Snot-lings. I miss this lovely little green-skins. In my opinion they where the most hilarious and funny concept of the green-skins factions.

Is like nurglings for nurgle army. It's always fun to stick some nurglings here and there meanwhile you think in this happy funny lovely creatures scratching here an  there with a kids laugh meanwhile some poor free people is puking till dead.

Destruction players use tot have a similar thing with the snotlings.

[Ganigumo]

Destruction needs more Kunnin' and less Brutal.

Gitmob/Grotback would be the best thing to bring that into the forefront.

Gitmob can be paper thin light cavalry (snarlfangs) supported by snarlfang pulled gun platforms (chariot war machines), and possibly the return of snotlings and pump wagons (since who doesn't love pump wagons). With the named character being a reimagined version of Grom. Gitmob already hail from Hysh as well. Ruleswise they can focus on getting powerful bonuses for meeting requirements to make them feel like sneaky backstabbin grots. Stuff like

• "kick 'em while they're down": Reroll wound rolls in melee if the target unit has suffered any wounds this turn
• "pack tactics": Reroll hit rolls for units (and their mounts, wolves are pack animals) if there is another friendly unit within 3" of the target unit
• "fading shot": Units can retreat and still shoot

Grotback can be different by being a more elite goblin force, using looted K.O equipment

 

The book can have a "little waaagh!" allegiance like big waaagh! but for grots, which could serve as a powerful magic based subfaction for destruction, since there would be an incredibly varied spell lore with useful wizards, and the allegiance can provide extra casting power. Ideally this faction would be the reverse of big waaagh! with the grots starting out confident and powerful, but losing steam if it starts looking like they might not win.

[Frowny]

On 8/19/2020 at 2:43 AM, Beastmaster said:

You’re absolutely right. Ogors, for example, always had a strong mercenary theme. They even have a unit (Maneaters) that stresses this point. They should be able to ally with many forces outside Destruction. Others don’t really fit into the GA system, too.

I mean, the whole game is based on „everyone fights everyone all the time“. The fixed Grand Alliances stand in the way of how the game is working, and of what storylines are possible. 

I mostly agree

 There was a cool short story a while back with ogors teaming up with some stormcast to eat some orks. Thematic and fun. Lots of alliances are plausible, and sometimes I think the grand alliances get in the way of that. 

I also agree that beastmen and orruks are narratively super similar-rampaging hordes. We only think of them differently for the history they have. 

Honestly surprised they didn't squat beasts of chaos last year but who can predict gw?

I like your idea for grots.

[swarmofseals]

Since I started actually playing Orruk Warclans I've been very surprised at how tactical they are:

• Ironjawz may seem very straightforward but the number of "wierd tricks" involving Great Green Hand of Gork, self triggering Zog 'Em/Mad as Hell with Green Puke, and Ironfist to accomplish unpredictable positioning and charges really surprised me.
• Zog 'Em/Mad as Hell means that opponents have a hard time guessing your exact positioning.
• Bonegrinz ability to force charge and prevent retreat allows for all kinds of shenanigans.

[C0deb1ue]

Was just looking through and found this thread... SoB are unfortunately another "fun" (read uncompetitive) faction which has obviously been placed in destruction but was just meant to be an excuse to sell models to everyone. 

very boring design and don't bring anything that destruction didn't have, or do anything they did better.... which is unfortunate