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Ben

Whats the 'Worst' Warscroll and why?

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As the title, 

Whats the 'Worst' Warscroll and why. 

For the purposes of this let's say worst as in bad performance.  

Also if that warscroll is bad, what could you do to make it work in a list. 

 

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I don’t think there are many ‘bad’ warscrolls. I do feel some are not a serious option for matched play which is sad, but doesn’t mean it’s bad. 

the only thing that makes a warscroll bad if it loses out in internal balance or doesn’t match the fluff at all. 

the best example for me, and a bit of a pet peeve I admit, is the thundertusk. The old ‘snowball’ rules were dumb so they had to go. So that’s good. But now it has absolutely no role in the army. Want a combat monster? There is a flat out better one. Want a support hero? It’s support will only work half the time. also you can’t pray twice a turn. It’s shooting is fine but doesn’t make that much of an impact either, but not the worst. 
okay so you could double up to mitigate all that. But now you’ve invested over a third of your army into something that can be done better for less points. 

and the fix isn’t that hard really imo. Give it a role. Make it a cheap, survivable monster with a support rules (-1 bubble, boosting yhetees, strike last ability) and a working support hero option. 
Or, and this would be my choice. Make it a dedicated horde killer. Make its number of tusks attacks dependent on the amount of models within range. So that with a twist of its mighty head it throws its enemies aside, like a bowling ball through the pins. 

Such a cool model as well that lost its appeal. 

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Posted (edited)

I would agree, a matter of internal balance is usually the issue. 

 

Like Gors for example. They're not necessarily bad. They can run and charge, get up to a decent save, etc, etc. All and all not bad for their points. But they're not going to kill a lot, so typically you're not going to be using them for a killin' role. Here enters the problem of there being another warscroll, Ungors, in the same book with the same number of wounds as Gors, who you can use to fulfill the same role, but for less points. For killin', for not toooooo many points more you get the far superior (for that task) Bestigor. This was fixed a little with Gors price drop, but Ungors still seem to be the better choice most for the non-killin' tasks and Bestigors are still far better for the killin' tasks. Doesn't leave a lot of room for poor Gors on the battlefield.

For a non-qualified answer though: The Jabberslythe. It just really sucks right now.

Edited by whiskeytango
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Posted (edited)

The humble Liberator is always my go-to for a bad unit. They're understatted, their shields suck, they have no banners or drummers, they have terrible bravery, their weapons hit like a wet noodle and they are totally barren of useful warscroll abilities. And SCE is still required to shove in 15 of the goobers because they're the only moderately affordable battleline. They also have no reach weapons despite their heug bases, which means that as soon as you go above minimum size they'll struggle to pile in and fight (not that they'd do much damage even if they could).

You're left with an overpriced minimum size screening unit that punches down and melts to even the most pathetic overtures of aggression. They're a tax on any SCE list and while any unit can serve as a speed bump, they're a particularly expensive and unimpressive speed bump even by speed bump standards.

I actually wonder if after more than a year of battletome releases anyone still has to suffer a battleline as awful as the Liberator. 

Edited by NauticalSoup
typos
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Easy answer for me is the Drakespawn Knights.  Even with the points drop, at 150 points they are drastically overcosted.  Yes, they are a fast moving 3+ save, but you have now listed literally their only redeeming feature.

Point for point, they are outdamaged by liberators, unless they manage to get their charge off.  Of course, once they do get their charge off, they will inevitably fail to kill whatever they ran into because their damage is so pitiful, at which point the liberators will catch up in damage in a single combat round.  They are rocking a 3+ save, which at least means that they will stick around for a while against low rend opponents and clog up the board.  However, they are only 5 models for 150 points, so it isn't exactly like them clogging up the board will keep you in control of any objectives.

To further belabor the point, there are also Demigryph Knights for 180 points.  This unit has the same movement, the same speed, 2 more wounds per unit (3 4 wound models vs 5 2 wound models), and before we start throwing buffs on deals more than double the damage output.  And they can be part of a battalion, unlike the drakespawn knights.

However, if I had to build around them, this is what I would run:

Tempest Eye:

Dreadlord on Black Dragon (300 pts)
    general
Hurricanum (280 pts)
    Aura of Glory
Sorceress
    Celestial Visions
15x Drakespawn Knights
20x Darkshards
20x Darkshards
30x Executioners
Extra Command Point or Emerald Lifeswarm

The idea would be to have the dreadlord and hurricanum backing up the drakespawn knights, and hope that between +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and +1 attacks they might actually accomplish something.  The darkshards and executioners would then be there to provide some backup for when they inevitably fail and actually attempt to carry the game...

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Posted (edited)

Well for the Doom flayer, a model with an extremely great background, and the biggest enemy of any dwarfen battleline, back in the old days, would be my pick fo the worst unit in the skaven battletome.

At 60points it seems pretty cheap, till you find out that literally any other weapon team shares its cost.

certainly that thing must be incredible in combat you think, considering it is a literal meagrinder, till you find out that it lacks in everything and has nothing.

i love the fact that it is literally the most random thing in our faction after the doomwheel, but it lacks potential.

with d6 attacks hitting and wounding on 3s (which is actually okish) and a -1rend (I’m just buffled at that debuff to this poor little fellow) and a damage of 1, this little and funny ****** won’t be doing any damage at all, with the exception of maybe being able to killa gryph hound, before it does the same with him.

certainly it’s more more destruction ability must be great then?

at least that’s what any skavenplayer must have thought when reading it’s rule, till we find out that it literally only increases it’s attack by another d6.

jai great. And instead of only exploding on a double this weapon team can even blow itself up on a seven. Considering that this thing has no damage potential nor any way of being buffed or taken in a unit of more then 1model, for 60points, I’m not sure why it even exist.

It’s not really a meet grinder after all I guess.

great model though, and for any fun list I would probably just put 1-2 in it, should there be 60-120points left in my list.

For any tricks or tipps, just put the doom flayer in front of your army.

let your frenemy think it is something special

like fanatics that can attack first, or just deals a ton of damage in melee.

And now enjoy the meat grinder being grinned to bloody meat by halve of your fenemies army.

Unless your friend/enemy knows how great (bad) it is and ignores it, in that case you’ll just have to hope that he forgets about them, leaving them alive, for you to move them on any objective near them, unless your luck has just left you and your only rolling double 1s for movement, in that case, your better of finding some late to the party warlord/model and blaming it for your loss.

 

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Fairbanks said:

Archaon with his -2 rend floppy sausage.

well, I think we know what boon the mark of slaanesh gave him...

Edited by Acid_Nine
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6 minutes ago, Fairbanks said:

Archaon with his -2 rend floppy sausage.

Hey now, Archaon is actually one of the best models in the entire Slaves to Darkness lineup.  As a matter of fact, I think that he is only behind Marauder's as the best beatsticks in the army.  Now, this may say great things about Archaon... or it may say terrible things about the rest of the lineup.  Feel free to take that whatever way you want.

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Liberators, in fact I would say a lot of the stormcast warscrolls are bad and outdated.

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Melusai archers.

Expensive and out of place in the army. They lool awesome tho.

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9 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

The humble Liberator is always my go-to for a bad unit. They're understatted, their shields suck, they have no banners or drummers, they have terrible bravery, their weapons hit like a wet noodle and they are totally barren of useful warscroll abilities. And SCE is still required to shove in 15 of the goobers because they're the only moderately affordable battleline. They also have no reach weapons despite their heug bases, which means that as soon as you go above minimum size they'll struggle to pile in and fight (not that they'd do much damage even if they could).

You're left with an overpriced minimum size screening unit that punches down and melts to even the most pathetic overtures of aggression. They're a tax on any SCE list and while any unit can serve as a speed bump, they're a particularly expensive and unimpressive speed bump even by speed bump standards.

I actually wonder if after more than a year of battletome releases anyone still has to suffer a battleline is awful as the Liberator. 

came here to say this, third post in aw yea

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Liberators for sure are in the top picks for this, but also the nighthaunt glaivewraith stalkers, outside of being required for 1 battalion I don't think anyone has even considered fielding them. Entirely pointless unit.

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Posted (edited)

Imo it is more of a list tbh. Though the highest up would be my pick:

Stardragon - Huge cool model with no damage output at all. Feels like fielding a heavy cotton ball.

This guy needs a melee damage potential of at least a Carnosaur mount to be viable (the Tauralon has quite a same-ish issue).

_______
Liberators - Simply too weak in every regard + Edit: I‘d love to see more dynamic poses (kneeling, jumping etc.) and weaponoptions (spears/glaives?) for them as well. How about a Sigmarite Shield Wall ability?

-Increases the armor by 1 when they didn‘t move or charge in the last movement phase.

- As Long as the Champion is alive: Fulminating discharge: -1 rend when they charged. At a hit roll of 6 that attack gains -1 rend and +1 dmg (not cumulative with the charge effect)
_____

Namartii - They just don‘t work due to design flaws (Range, Bravery, synergies)

Namartii fix: +1 attack vs enemies with 2 or less HP. +1 damage vs enemies with 3 or more hp.

____

Soulrender- One Designflaw

Soulrender additional rule: Namarti gain +1“ range while they‘re wholly within 16“ of a Soulrender. The soulrender also benefits from this effect if there is a Namartii unit wholly within 16“ of him.

____

Glaivewraith Stalkers - I Love the models but they don‘t do anything

3 stages of bonuses:

At the start of the game chose a unit for each Glaivewraith Stalker unit on the field, at the beginning of each shooting phase consult the table below for each unit and apply the effect, these effects are not cumulative:

18“ or more inches away from the target -Stalking: add 4“ to this Units movement characteristics

wholly within 12“ of the target- The thrill of the hunt: pick one unit that has any models that this unit has passed over. Roll a dice for each model of this unit that passed over the picked unit, on a roll of 4+ that unit suffers 1 mortal wound, on a roll of 6+ that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.

wholly within 6“ of the target - Murderous frenzy: every unmodified hit roll of 6 made by models in this unit deals D3 MWs and the attack sequence ends
_____

Chaos Warriors & Knights - they feel like heavily armoured peasants, not warriors.

Just add rend 1 for 6s to hit...or weapon options like the liberators have.

 

edited with suggestions.

 

 

Edited by JackStreicher

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3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Chaos Warriors & Knights - they feel like heavily armoured peasants, not warriors.

 

Oh I like those! Had fun with them before the book and now even more options. I don't think they'll be a staple for every tournament winner but by that logic most of the game are 'bad' warscrolls ;)

 

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The worst warscroll that I've ever used is easily Nighthaunt's Glaivewrath Stalkers. Two units were mandatory as part of a battalion I was running at the time.

For 60 pts, you get a unit of 4 - 1 wound a piece. That's a strange unit size, but Myrmourn Banshees make it work by being very killy in the right circumstances and being able to unbind spells. Stalkers... move slowly, don't have any rend, and their attacks profile are outclassed by just about anything that is not a Chainrasp in the army. With a drummer they can retreat and charge, which juices up their attacks - to be still pretty bad. Bladegheists do the same thing but have a higher movement characteristic and actually hit hard. As a unit of 4 and the cheapest unit overall that Nighthaunt have access to, they can be a speed bump or a screen, but for 20 more points you get 6 more wounds by using Chainrasps.

So, in essence, they're a bad unit that is then outclassed in every single way by another unit in the book. Oh, and they're not even batteline.

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In the recent warscrolls where we cannot blame the evolution of the game, I would say the Ogroid Myrmidon. This model warscroll is so underwhelming for what that monstruous hero should be. His warscroll is weak in every way:

Mobility, Damage Output, Survivability, Command Ability, Synergy 

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10 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

Melusai archers.

Expensive and out of place in the army. They lool awesome tho.

Gonna second Melusai Blood Stalkers. They're a 140 (used to be 160!) point unit that statistically does 2 wounds in the shooting phase and does nothing else. Absolutely dreadful.

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Having watched a friend experience their misery I’m going to go with Infernal Guard Ironsworn in Legion of Azgorh as while neither war scrolls is great at only 10 points more Fireglaives seem so much better.

Based on experience the most damage they do is when they get attacked as their Spiteshields do 1 MW on an unmodified Save Roll of 6.   Their base weapon profile is 1/3+/4+/-1/1 with the Rend being the only good thing about it.

Blackshard Armor means they can ignore the first wound in both the shooting phase and the combat phase but all of LoA gets that and at only 1 Wound even with a 4+ Save they don’t last long and with a Bravery of 6 you can expect to lose more to Battleshock more often than not.  Being FW the insult to injury is you have to pay extra to get any of the command units.

Add in their 4” movement and if your opponent doesn’t want to bother to eliminate them from the table all too often they can just ignore them by maneuvering around.

In comparison while Fireglaives lose the Rend on their melee weapon they have Rend on their shooting, which makes them much more difficult to ignore.  So unless you’re taking the Battalion (which requires two of each) and you haven’t just gone the far superior route of the Execution Herd allowing you to make Bull Centaur Renders battleline you’re probably best off taking three minimum size units of Fireglaives to screen your artillery or maybe hold a back line objective and filling the rest of your army with units that might actually do something.

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If we consider all warscrolls, I think it's clearly going to be one of the ancient warscrolls that no longer fits into a faction but is technically still legal for matched play. Which one it is I couldn't tell you, but there are loads of choices out there that are not only terribly inefficient but also would force you into a Grand Alliance allegiance package. 

If we set aside those options and only consider "modern" warscrolls that are still part of a battletome faction, then it's a much harder question. I think there are two ways to think about it. One is to look at the warscroll that performs the worst for it's points cost, and the other is to look for warscrolls that are dominated by another choice within the same faction Depending on which of these outlooks you take I think you'll arrive at a different conclusion.

We've heard a couple of folks bring up Blood Stalkers, and they are certainly a contender. Their shooting WDR is .037 which is pretty terrible, but I'm pretty sure there are other shooting warscrolls out there that are similarly bad.  The Ironblaster clocks in at a putrid .02 for shooting WDR with the cannonball and .0296 with the hail shot. So yeah, on pure effectiveness the Ironblaster has Blood Stalkers "beat".

The Jabberslythe has also been brought up, and I think that one is a great choice. It not only is ineffective, but it forces you to take the worst faction currently in the game (Beasts of Chaos). You can make an Ironblaster or Blood Stalkers "work" by shoehorning them into an otherwise competitive build, but there is no such build to put the Jabberslythe in. 

 

If we look at things the other way, then there are lots of potential contenders and I don't really have time to consider all of them. Here are a few things, some of which have already been mentioned:

  • Gors. Generally dominated by Ungors, but honestly they aren't that far apart. I don't like this answer, especially because there is a narrow case (Brass Despoilers) where you might use Gors due to Ungors not fitting in the battalion.
  • Zombies. I like this call, as they are pretty much dominated by Skeleton Warriors in the block infantry role and are dominated by Dire Wolves in the cheap battleline role. I suppose they are technically the cheapest battleline choice, but the cases where you'd want to give up the effectiveness of Dire Wolves to save a few points are very few.
  • Liberators are dominated by Sequitors on paper, but they still fill the "cheapest available battleline" niche so I don't like this answer.
  • Bleakswords/Dreadspears are just less efficient than Freeguild Guard and benefit from fewer buffs. The difference is pretty small though, but it's hard to imagine any situation where you'd want the Dark Elf options over the Human options for actual gameplay reasons.
  • Ironbreakers are a bit better than Longbeards on offense, but you aren't taking either warscroll for their hitting power. Longbeards are cheaper and provide a useful buff.
  • Glaivewraith Stalkers have to be in the conversation. They are in a bad faction, are very weak, and are dominated by multiple other options.

 

How do you make these work? Well it depends on what you mean by "make it work" if you mean build a competitive list around them, I think for many of these options it just can't be done. If you mean build a list that is competitive and happens to include them, then you just build your most competitive list and stick a "bad" unit in and you'll be left with a list that is still reasonably competitive. 

If you simply mean kitchen table viable as your standard, then most of these are functional in that context. 

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31 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:
  • Bleakswords/Dreadspears are just less efficient than Freeguild Guard and benefit from fewer buffs. The difference is pretty small though, but it's hard to imagine any situation where you'd want the Dark Elf options over the Human options for actual gameplay reasons.

What is a +2 casting bonus (outside of a Hallowheart list 😉)

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1 minute ago, Double Misfire said:

What is a +2 casting bonus (outside of a Hallowheart list 😉)

A fair point, although I still might be tempted to take Darkshards in that case!

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19 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

A fair point, although I still might be tempted to take Darkshards in that case!

4+ armour save and 10 points can make all the difference 😀

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Spoilpox Scrivener: He provides a minor damage buff to plaguebearers (the unit not the keyword) who pretty much can't do damage even fully buffed due to having 1 base attack with a 1 inch reach no rend, one damage on a 32mm base. Probably the epitome of worthless as I would seriously consider a command point to be worth more points wise. 

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