Aezeal Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 On 3/20/2020 at 10:15 PM, NauticalSoup said: The humble Liberator is always my go-to for a bad unit. They're understatted, their shields suck, they have no banners or drummers, they have terrible bravery, their weapons hit like a wet noodle and they are totally barren of useful warscroll abilities. And SCE is still required to shove in 15 of the goobers because they're the only moderately affordable battleline. They also have no reach weapons despite their heug bases, which means that as soon as you go above minimum size they'll struggle to pile in and fight (not that they'd do much damage even if they could). You're left with an overpriced minimum size screening unit that punches down and melts to even the most pathetic overtures of aggression. They're a tax on any SCE list and while any unit can serve as a speed bump, they're a particularly expensive and unimpressive speed bump even by speed bump standards. I actually wonder if after more than a year of battletome releases anyone still has to suffer a battleline as awful as the Liberator. If they are still used that much they ain't that bad. The other battleline options are obviously worse if you pick libs over them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NauticalSoup Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 4 hours ago, Aezeal said: If they are still used that much they ain't that bad. The other battleline options are obviously worse if you pick libs over them. They're used because they're the cheapest way to meet your battleline requirements - your average SCE player will assume it's just a mandatory 300 point tax for playing SCE, and that the only thing they'll accomplish if you're lucky is to eat a charge and die. They serve no other purpose except being an overpriced speed bump. Sure, the other options will do more work, but they all require more investment which instantly writes them off. I've seen the case made that if Sequitors were 110 points and default battleline you would still take the Liberators because every point spent on a unit that isn't Raptors or Evokitties is a point wasted. That's the absolute state of SCE right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 I‘d really like to see more of the AI approach =} maybe GW will even adapt it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 1 hour ago, JackStreicher said: I‘d really like to see more of the AI approach =} maybe GW will even adapt it Ai approach? now that sounds interesting. (although I have no idea what it is🤨) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said: Ai approach? now that sounds interesting. (although I have no idea what it is🤨) Artificial Intelligence. I am not sure what kind of AI he used, anyway it‘s a good start to get point costs right the first time. (@Bayul posted the link at the top of the website) The principle is that the AI learns by a lot of examples how to evaluate the point costs of warscrolls. Edited April 14, 2020 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: Artificial Intelligence. I am not sure what kind of AI he used, anyway it‘s a good start to get point costs right the first time. (@Bayul posted the link at the top of the website) The principle is that the AI learns by a lot of examples how to evaluate the point costs of warscrolls. That does sound interesting. war-scroll wise this would probably do great, I’m just not sure if potential allegiance buffs are taken into those calculations, but then again we would probably need different points for each unit in different allegiances, if that were the case, and I’m mot sure if that is the whole idea of such an interesting and probably great system Edited April 14, 2020 by Skreech Verminking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said: That does sound interesting. war-scroll wise this would probably do great, I’m just not sure if potential allegiance buffs are taken into those calculations, but then again we would probably need different points for each unit in different allegiances, if that were the case, and I’m mot sure if that is the whole idea of such an interesting and probably great system It‘s Warscroll only points at the moment ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aezeal Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 8 hours ago, NauticalSoup said: They're used because they're the cheapest way to meet your battleline requirements - your average SCE player will assume it's just a mandatory 300 point tax for playing SCE, and that the only thing they'll accomplish if you're lucky is to eat a charge and die. They serve no other purpose except being an overpriced speed bump. Sure, the other options will do more work, but they all require more investment which instantly writes them off. I've seen the case made that if Sequitors were 110 points and default battleline you would still take the Liberators because every point spent on a unit that isn't Raptors or Evokitties is a point wasted. That's the absolute state of SCE right now. I read just what you say (not much knowledge about the soecific warscrolls otherwise) I understand means internal balance is suboptimal between battleline and non battleline, and while battle line is supposed to be a bit of a tax it's more than average in this army). However being the cheapest battle line in a given army is apparently a huge thing in this case making them better than the other choices. Not having cheap speedbumps and cheap battle line is a design choice I think. It represents the eliteness(?) Of the army .. an army which has an otherwise broad choice of units and tactics I'd like to point out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NauticalSoup Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 7 hours ago, Aezeal said: I read just what you say (not much knowledge about the soecific warscrolls otherwise) I understand means internal balance is suboptimal between battleline and non battleline, and while battle line is supposed to be a bit of a tax it's more than average in this army). However being the cheapest battle line in a given army is apparently a huge thing in this case making them better than the other choices. Not having cheap speedbumps and cheap battle line is a design choice I think. It represents the eliteness(?) Of the army .. an army which has an otherwise broad choice of units and tactics I'd like to point out. That's the idea - problem is it's wrong. SCE units aren't actually elite and are almost universally understatted for their price and base size. There's a reason that nearly every tournament SCE list is a carbon copy! Just peek into the SCE discussion for a couple hundred pages of forlorn sighs and angry rants if you don't take my word for it. The Liberator would probably be in the running for the only viable troops choice even if you took away it's weapons and armour save - it can be the shittiest unit in the book and still be the only viable option purely on points. Which definitely qualifies it for a discussion as one of the worst warscrolls around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciroscognamiglio.nap Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 2 hours ago, NauticalSoup said: The Liberator would probably be in the running for the only viable troops choice even if you took away it's weapons Wait, Liberators have weapons? It definitely didn't look like it in the games I played 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readercolin Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 1 hour ago, ciroscognamiglio.nap said: Wait, Liberators have weapons? It definitely didn't look like it in the games I played Hey, hey, they still require you to roll dice if they are in melee, even if nothing ever happens from doing so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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