Stormcast and and a friendly dead lizard

[Diabo]

Sort of as an offshoot from the Starcast discussion on Lord Kroak and his new warscroll, I thought it may be useful to have a discussion about any other lists we can ally him into now that he is going to be 320 points with the new Seraphon book. 

One of his biggest boons in my opinion is the potential to reap an additional 3 CP in the hero phase (every hero phase you roll 3D6 for Kroak and every 4+ generates a CP). 

For CP hungry stormhosts this could be invaluable. You could for example spam Gavriel's CA up to a 12 inch guaranteed charge. Shootcast would also benefit as you would then be able to double tap not only the Longstrikes but also several ballistas and/or Evos depending on your list. 

Speaking of Evos, the ones on the saucy cats could certainly benefit from the Arcanum's Pack Leader CA. Particularly hilarious in Tempest Lords where you could run an absolute CP farm. You could even spam it with the Arcanum on billy goat's CA and give your army virtually unlimited run distances. Throw in the aetherquartz brooch for added sauciness. 

I think Kroak could help revitalise SCE a bit in this regard. Thoughts? 

[Turragor]

Ill be testing this variation first, though Sweden is at the moment in the process of recommending restrictions for social and work gatherings thanks to our pal covid19. So we will see when I get it tested

Maybe just a lot of painting time and remote work incoming.

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

Kroak's casting/unbinding rules and spells are good, but I think he is expensive for additional command points.  Despite the points reduction, Kroak costs nearly as much as 6 longstrikes. Kroak will take up points which should be spent on Stormcast units that need the extra command points most. It is a paradox.

To be honest if you really want to use Kroak and be competitive at the same time, play Seraphon instead. Don't play Stormcast.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[Turragor]

1 hour ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

Kroak costs nearly as much as 6 longstrikes. Kroak will take up points which should be spent on Stormcast units that need the extra command points most. It is a paradox.

You wouldn't plug 6 longstrikes into most lists though. Not unless they already have more longstrikes. Kroak gives much more than 6 longstrikes - in a lot of lists.

There's nothing "bad" about having more CPs even in lists that don't focus on CP generation. I hadn't even considered the CPs when I thought of plugging Kroak into Starcast.

I think, perhaps, Anvilstrike might be a list that just wouldn't have use for him.

[Marcvs]

Also, about focusing on stormcast units instead: kroak gives you 4 casts at +1 and four unbind (tablewide, but let's ignore this). To have something similar in SCE you need an entire grand convocation battalion.

The other possible comparison is with Aventis.

The point is not that kroak should go in every list (for instance, The shootcast list is so tight in its points that it seems impossible to fit it without losing its balance), but that it could provide an interesting addition in some SCE armies.

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

26 minutes ago, Turragor said:

You wouldn't plug 6 longstrikes into most lists though. Not unless they already have more longstrikes. Kroak gives much more than 6 longstrikes - in a lot of lists.

There's nothing "bad" about having more CPs even in lists that don't focus on CP generation. I hadn't even considered the CPs when I thought of plugging Kroak into Starcast.

I think, perhaps, Anvilstrike might be a list that just wouldn't have use for him.

And most of those lists without enough longstrikes never sell itself. To me, at least.

Perhaps because anything outside anvilstrikes were a disappointment to me. That is, even in games where competitiveness is not pursued to an extreme.

And if Kroak brings so much for SCE armies without anvilstrike, so much that it could make those lists much more viable, that simply shows how abysmal SCE is. 

An army that cannot stand without a crutch borrowed from other battletome. That is why I wouldn't be glad even if Kroak could make some SCE lists viable.

 

P.S.

Apologies for long haranguing. I just couldn't find any half competitive SCE lists without Anvilstrike nowadays. Seeing the new Seraphon update simply added insult to the injury. Nevertheless I will try to be more open-minded regarding this topic.

[Ignatius "Nate" T]

I've already been using Gav with a Celestant Prime. There's no limit on the distance you can go with a charge, you just have to be eligible to charge when you declare it (aka 12" for most units). So drop him down 9" from the enemy, auto roll your 12" charge distance, pop Gav three or four times, and now your prime is charging 21-24". Guarantees he get where he wants to be.  

 

So far just a joke strat but it is what I was going to be tossing around at Adepticon this year just to see what happens. Kroak would help with that for sure. Lot of points at that point though. 

 

I wonder if he's better suited in an army with Vandus instead. The +1 attack CA is insane, and having Kroak giving extra attacks essentially for a big beefy unit of Evos or whatever else could get pretty absurd quickly. 

[Maturin]

18 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

P.S.

Apologies for long haranguing. I just couldn't find any half competitive SCE lists without Anvilstrike nowadays. Seeing the new Seraphon update simply added insult to the injury. Nevertheless I will try to be more open-minded regarding this topic.

Then you haven't played Starcast.

[Lucur]

Just to keep this discussion on topic, toads and frogs aren't lizards, they're amphibians!

[Diabo]

I really think a Tempest Lords list with thundercats popping an obscene amount of attacks could have legs.  

The list would need a secondary threat though- not sure if Incantor and comet would be worth it in this build without a Drake buffing the Incantor?

[Diabo]

Another alternative to Kroak is to run a vanilla Slann with a Saurus Astrolith that brings you neatly to 400 points. 

You lose one potential CP per turn and one of Kroak's spell (but keep the more superior comet spell) but gain an additional +1 to cast (so now casting on +3) and an additional 6+ save after save due to the Astrolith. 

And 6+ inches on your spells so less of a need for the vortex, especially if you need the toad on the move. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Diabo

[Lucur]

What with Kroak, Lord Arcanum on foot and all the endless spells? Spending the CP to increase the movement of spells makes them far safer to use without them backfiring the turn after and also increases damage potential. Maybe a Stardrake for another +1 cast and the immovable object he is, large unit of Concussors or Desolators for the countercharge? Though that would leave little points for endless spells and need some fast movers to cap after the "nuke"...

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Lucur said:

What with Kroak, Lord Arcanum on foot and all the endless spells? Spending the CP to increase the movement of spells makes them far safer to use without them backfiring the turn after and also increases damage potential. Maybe a Stardrake for another +1 cast and the immovable object he is, large unit of Concussors or Desolators for the countercharge? Though that would leave little points for endless spells and need some fast movers to cap after the "nuke"...

Yeah, not many points. You would have around 120 pts even before including the comet:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Arcanum (160)
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- Celestine Hammer
Lord Kroak (320)
- Allies
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
4 x Concussors (480)

Total: 1880 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 430 / 400
Wounds: 88
 

[Diabo]

Ran the Tempest Lords farm and managed to give Dracolines +13 attacks before I got bored and stopped (I still had 4 CP left). 

[Turragor]

12 hours ago, Diabo said:

Ran the Tempest Lords farm and managed to give Dracolines +13 attacks before I got bored and stopped (I still had 4 CP left). 

hahaha I am glad Im not planning on CP farm lists as thats gonna get some kind of FAQ - probably from the CA level (only once per unit)

[Diabo]

2 minutes ago, Turragor said:

hahaha I am glad Im not planning on CP farm lists as thats gonna get some kind of FAQ - probably from the CA level (only once per unit)

SCE need all the exploits they can get currently! 

[Turragor]

1 minute ago, Diabo said:

SCE need all the exploits they can get currently! 

Unfortunately were an exploit to guide an SC list to podium itd be fixed

That said, I don't see any events taking place for the next 3 months or so5

[Diabo]

Anvilkroak is also another idea I would like to test soon- 9 longstrikes, 3x ballistas with Ordinator, Lord Aquillor with Hunter battleline and x2 aetherwings. 

[Diabo]

1 minute ago, Turragor said:

Unfortunately were an exploit to guide an SC list to podium itd be fixed

That said, I don't see any events taking place for the next 3 months or so5

To be fair it is very unlikely to podium- 4-1 at best and 3-2 on a bad day I reckon. 

[Diabo]

I played 18 eels yesterday and Tempest Kroak got deleted. 

[Turragor]

1 hour ago, Diabo said:

To be fair it is very unlikely to podium- 4-1 at best and 3-2 on a bad day I reckon. 

This would put kroak lists above anything we've got so far. All my data from Tourneys here is no SC list goes 4-1. 3-2 on a bad day is a winner imo.

I just unpacked my Kroak (he'll be in a Kroakcast list)

[Diabo]

9 hours ago, Turragor said:

This would put kroak lists above anything we've got so far. All my data from Tourneys here is no SC list goes 4-1. 3-2 on a bad day is a winner imo.

I just unpacked my Kroak (he'll be in a Kroakcast list)

A few lists went 4-1 in London and the South West last year but I take your point that it's an uphill battle. 

Good news on the Kroak!

[Souleater]

Kroakast

 

[Kramer]

I’m Stoak-ed about this combo 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Kramer

[Marcvs]

just as PSA: Seraphon batteltome's FAQ is up, no changes to the good Kroak