STD Daemon Prince Aura of Slaanesh rules interaction?

[Climb]

If I take slaanesh daemon prince, it looks like their aura doesn't interact very well with the Hellforged sword. My instinct is that it's just a wasted line of text for the prince (yes it would still benefit other slaanesh units nearby) but I can't find an exact answer anywhere.

 

Hellforged Sword - If the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with a Hellforged Sword is 6, that attack inflicts 2 mortal wounds on the target and the attack sequence ends (do not make a wound or save roll).

Aura of Slaanesh - If the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with a melee weapon by a friendly SLAVES TO DARKNESS SLAANESH unit wholly within 12" of this model is 6, that attack scores 2 hits on the target instead of 1. Make a wound and save roll for each hit.

[Kramer]

17 minutes ago, Climb said:

If I take slaanesh daemon prince, it looks like their aura doesn't interact very well with the Hellforged sword. My instinct is that it's just a wasted line of text for the prince (yes it would still benefit other slaanesh units nearby) but I can't find an exact answer anywhere.

 

Hellforged Sword - If the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with a Hellforged Sword is 6, that attack inflicts 2 mortal wounds on the target and the attack sequence ends (do not make a wound or save roll).

Aura of Slaanesh - If the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with a melee weapon by a friendly SLAVES TO DARKNESS SLAANESH unit wholly within 12" of this model is 6, that attack scores 2 hits on the target instead of 1. Make a wound and save roll for each hit.

Oh there was an faq on a similar interaction but I can’t remember which it was and don’t have time to look for it now. But from memory it would result in just 2 mortal wounds as that is were the sequence ends. So the double hits step doesn’t happen. 

[Climb]

21 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Oh there was an faq on a similar interaction but I can’t remember which it was and don’t have time to look for it now. But from memory it would result in just 2 mortal wounds as that is were the sequence ends. So the double hits step doesn’t happen. 

Yea, that makes the most sense to me. I'd love to see the faq if you or anyone else can remember which one it is!

Thanks, though!

[Midjithero]

9 hours ago, Climb said:

Yea, that makes the most sense to me. I'd love to see the faq if you or anyone else can remember which one it is!

Thanks, though!

No, the attacks would have both effects...

so, assume you had 1 attack and that attack was a natural 6.  Per the sword rules, you would get 2 MW, and the sequence would end for that attack.  You also get another dice to roll a wound with, because your initial attack  spiked another attack

Q: Sometimes a dice roll will trigger an effect. For example, a weapon might have a rule that says a hit roll of 6 causes two hits on the target instead of 1. What happens if another effect applies to the same roll? For example, the weapon from the previous example might have a rule that says it inflicts D6 mortal wounds on a hit roll of 6 and the attack sequence ends – would I get to inflict two hits that each inflicted D6 mortal wounds?
A: When a dice roll triggers more than one effect, each effect is triggered once. For this example, this means that the hit roll would cause two hits, but only one of the hits would inflict D6 mortal wounds (you would carry out the rest of the attack procedure for the other hit normally).

 

lastly, sword of judgement on a Slaanesh demon prince is awesome because you get +1 to hit when you charge and sword of Judgement is a 6+ meaning it’s affected by modifiers (in this case it would do d6 MW on a 5 or 6 if your DP charges. ) 

[themortalgod]

On 2/19/2020 at 2:37 AM, Midjithero said:

lastly, sword of judgement on a Slaanesh demon prince is awesome because you get +1 to hit when you charge and sword of Judgement is a 6+ meaning it’s affected by modifiers (in this case it would do d6 MW on a 5 or 6 if your DP charges. ) 

I disagree that the sword is as good as it sounds. It is situational and you don't have enough attacks to really make huge use of it. Especially since it would be replacing the 2 mortal wounds the sword already triggers on a 6. Sure it can spike high, but I think in the vast majority of situations you get way more value out of Ethereal Amulet on that beautiful 3+ save.

If you put sword of judgment on the sword profile you are looking at ~3 extra MW above what you normally would deal assuming that you are on the charge AND fighting something the sword of judgement triggers on. (heroes/monsters)

If you simulate it, the best choice is to have the Sword of Judgement attached to the talons, even though, they have fewer attacks. And yes, even though it does look like a fairly large increase proportionally, it doesn't reflect a radical increase in power. DP don't hit very hard to begin with, with SoJ, they hit a little harder in some situations, but not enough to say 1 shot something powerful. Personally, I see DPs as utility tanks, you bring them for their command ability, aura, and ability to take lots of punches. Thus I optimize to maximize that impact.

Side note: I am also a TKs player who has had loads of success with Sword of Judgement on my Tomb Prince, setting him up to trigger the thing on a 4+ with 5 attacks is something spectacular to see. I have 1 shot big monsters with my little 80pt hero before.  He makes way better use of it than the DP.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by themortalgod

[Midjithero]

1 hour ago, themortalgod said:

I disagree that the sword is as good as it sounds. It is situational and you don't have enough attacks to really make huge use of it. Especially since it would be replacing the 2 mortal wounds the sword already triggers on a 6. Sure it can spike high, but I think in the vast majority of situations you get way more value out of Ethereal Amulet on that beautiful 3+ save.

If you put sword of judgment on the sword profile you are looking at ~3 extra MW above what you normally would deal assuming that you are on the charge AND fighting something the sword of judgement triggers on. (heroes/monsters)

If you simulate it, the best choice is to have the Sword of Judgement attached to the talons, even though, they have fewer attacks. And yes, even though it does look like a fairly large increase proportionally, it doesn't reflect a radical increase in power. DP don't hit very hard to begin with, with SoJ, they hit a little harder in some situations, but not enough to say 1 shot something powerful. Personally, I see DPs as utility tanks, you bring them for their command ability, aura, and ability to take lots of punches. Thus I optimize to maximize that impact.

Side note: I am also a TKs player who has had loads of success with Sword of Judgement on my Tomb Prince, setting him up to trigger the thing on a 4+ with 5 attacks is something spectacular to see. I have 1 shot big monsters with my little 80pt hero before.  He makes way better use of it than the DP.

 

Why would it replace the 2 MW?  Per the FAQ, multiple abilities that trigger off of a roll (in this case an unmodified 6) would generate the following: 

assuming 1 attack*, natural 6 rolled, against a hero/monster = d6 MW, 2 MW, 1 dice to roll to wound with the swords profile.

also, the sword is effected by the +1 hit as it has the old wording, hence, it triggers the d6 MW on 5+ if you charge (the other 2 effects only trigger on nat 6s) *edit sorry looks like you knew this  

And  it’s more to help the DP be better at sniping heroes since they have the ability to attack first before any units are selected in the fight phase.

[themortalgod]

16 minutes ago, Midjithero said:

Why would it replace the 2 MW?  Per the FAQ, multiple abilities that trigger off of a roll (in this case an unmodified 6) would generate the following: 

assuming 1 attack*, natural 6 rolled, against a hero/monster = d6 MW, 2 MW, 1 dice to roll to wound with the swords profile.

also, the sword is effected by the +1 hit as it has the old wording, hence, it triggers the d6 MW on 5+ if you charge (the other 2 effects only trigger on nat 6s) *edit sorry looks like you knew this  

And  it’s more to help the DP be better at sniping heroes since they have the ability to attack first before any units are selected in the fight phase.

Personally I interpret the wording of "and the attack sequence ends" as no additional effects can trigger. You would sequence the triggers in whatever order you want, but whichever occurs first would end the sequence. The additional attacks thing (the example in the faq) is different in that it doesn't end the attack sequence so you can order it before the MW trigger. 

Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger D6 MW -> end -> never get to 2 MW

or

Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger 2 MW -> end -> never get to D6 MW

compared to

Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger additional hit -> initial hit triggers 2 MW -> initial hit ends 

Perhaps it is my magic the gathering experience polluting my interpretation but in the game if an action causes several abilities to trigger, then those abilities all go on the stack in an order and resolve one at a time. However, if one of those effects prevents another one of those abilities from resolving, it takes precedence. (Not evidence suggesting this is GW's intention, but just what I am drawing in to build my interpretation)

Though, even if I am wrong, I am skeptical about the value of an SoJ DP being an effective hero sniper. Most opponents won't let you anywhere near their heroes once they know you have the sword and even if you make it, you still only really have good odds of deleting smaller heroes. Its not like a DP is cheap, you are paying a lot for the fact that he is an aura/utility tool. Using him as a cruise missile makes him a really expensive cruise missile.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by themortalgod

[Midjithero]

28 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

Personally I interpret the wording of "and the attack sequence ends" as no additional effects can trigger. You would sequence the triggers in whatever order you want, but whichever occurs first would end the sequence. The additional attacks thing (the example in the faq) is different in that it doesn't end the attack sequence so you can order it before the MW trigger. 

Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger D6 MW -> end -> never get to 2 MW

or

Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger 2 MW -> end -> never get to D6 MW

compared to

Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger additional hit -> initial hit triggers 2 MW -> initial hit ends 

Perhaps it is my magic the gathering experience polluting my interpretation but in the game if an action causes several abilities to trigger, then those abilities all go on the stack in an order and resolve one at a time. However, if one of those effects prevents another one of those abilities from resolving, it takes precedence. (Not evidence suggesting this is GW's intention, but just what I am drawing in to build my interpretation)

Though, even if I am wrong, I am skeptical about the value of an SoJ DP being an effective hero sniper. Most opponents won't let you anywhere near their heroes once they know you have the sword and even if you make it, you still only really have good odds of deleting smaller heroes. Its not like a DP is cheap, you are paying a lot for the fact that he is an aura/utility tool. Using him as a cruise missile makes him a really expensive cruise missile.

 

 O I totally understand what you are saying, as far as hero killing viability is concerned, but you really only take 2 artifacts with the DP, Sword or Ethereal Amulet.  And since the OP was asking if the abilties stack, I wanted them to best understand that they do stack, and reference the FAQ material.

now, back to whether or not it’s the best artifact, that’s situational based on your army make up.  Are you running a mostly defensive army?  Then sword is probably best to help you get that extra punch.  Are you running a beefy Khorne list?  The. ethereal amulet to tank damage is where you should look with your DP.

and the above is really how you determine your play style with the DP (cruise missile or not)  
you could honestly play the bluff game...get your opponent so hyped that you will teleport your 40man marauder blob into his back line, that he/she leaves lanes open to TP in your DP in through the front, run a Chaos Lord and hope to be within range to make the DP fight twice before your opponent even gets to attack once...