Clarity on Ironjawz Mad as Hell

[JPjr]

Now seeing the actual rule my view, for what little it's worth, is that it (clearly though not clearly) means the ability is activated if there are no enemy units within 9". That makes sense not just from my interpretation of the rule but, and this is obviously much much much much murkier, what 'in universe event' the rules are trying to represent, that is big angry Orruks getting pissed off that they're being attacked from afar and can't hit back. 

Also if we take it to mean there just has to be ANY enemy unit more than 9" away from the Ironjawz unit taking damage then it might as well just be a permanently on ability as on a 6' x 4' table that's basically always going to be the case.

For clarification here I have added a really fancy ultra-technical diagram (my father would be so proud). Here we have a situation where an Orruk unit is surrounded by enemy units but there's also, let's say, a single enemy Grot hiding away on the complete other side of the table hoping no one notices him. Are we really trying to claim that because that Grot is over there, a good 4 or 5 ft away, picking his nose the Orruk's 'Mad As Hell' ability is always on? 

🤔

Personally, for again what little it's worth and in this case scientists would probably need to invent a new unit of measurement to accurately quantify just how little my opinion here is worth, I'd have worded it as...

At the end of any phase, if any wounds or mortal wounds have been inflicted in that phase on an IRONJAWZ unit that is not within 9" of any enemy units, that IRONJAWZ unit can move D6".

Also, and I realise I'm muddying the waters further here by adding stuff no one wants or needs, because I'm a sucker for rules like this, that have a basis in a unit's background/lore, I'd add a further clause... something like "that IRONJAWZ unit can move D6", but must end this move closer to an enemy unit."

Edited February 19, 2020 by JPjr

[DerZauberer]

On 2/16/2020 at 12:08 AM, jamie.white said:

A: The word ‘any’ is treated as being synonymous with ‘one or more’. In your example, this means that 1 would be added to the hit rolls, not 3

The core FAQ proves that "Mad as Hell" is broken, or am i missing something here?

Translated: "At the end of one or more phase, if one or more wounds or mortal wounds are inflicted in that phase on an IRONJAWZ unit that is more then 9" away from one or more enemy units, that IRONJAWZ unit can move D6".

This would e.g. allow Ironjawz to move after combat, which would be arguably broken.

But please, don't let this develop to a RAW vs. RAI discussion - again. 

Edit: Let me be clear, i never did and wont use mad as hell when an enemy unit is within 9". It's plain stupid. period. But this topic is NOT about INTENTIONS, it's about WRITTEN RULES. And i was confused due to the core FAQ and how it would work with Mad As Hell.

Edited February 19, 2020 by DerZauberer

[Deepkin]

I agree with Kadeton and others saying this is spurious. In the context within which it is written, the rule is clear. Anyone trying to interpret it otherwise is being a bit of a prat.

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, DerZauberer said:

The core FAQ proves that "Mad as Hell" is broken, or am i missing something here?

Translated: "At the end of one or more phase, if one or more wounds or mortal wounds are inflicted in that phase on an IRONJAWZ unit that is more then 9" away from one or more enemy units, that IRONJAWZ unit can move D6".

This would e.g. allow Ironjawz to move after combat, which would be arguably broken.

But please, don't let this develop to a RAW vs. RAI discussion - again. 

The core FAQ sounds more like it is trying to explain a situation where multiple sources of an aura are affecting the same unit. There are multiple heroes that broadcast an aura of +1 to hit, casting or whatever. If the rule says "any" they explain that it means one or more models, so the same broadcasted auras aren't stacking.

I don't think it is intended to be used in every situation where you find the word "any".

Edited February 19, 2020 by Kasper

[Azamar]

18 hours ago, willange said:

Well I guess my shadow warriors can now deploy 3" from enemy units because they were "more than 9 inches away" from other enemy units.  This wording is used all over the place and really means all as jamie.white pointed out.

EDIT: While I'm being a little sarcastic, I don't mean to be mean.  I merely mean to point out that "more  than 9 inches from any enemy units" is very commonly understood to mean "more than 9" from all enemy units" for tons of abilities.  Mad as Hell isn't an exception to that.

I’ve quoted the above because, for me, this is the point that really puts the argument to bed. However you want to spin it, the wording for Mad as Hell is identical to every teleport/ deep strike/ summoning ability out there (or at least those I’ve looked at to confirm). If you want to play it that Mad as Hell activates if at least one enemy unit is more than 9” from you, you have to accept that any teleport etc ability is going to work the same way (i.e I can drop a spirit of durthu right on top of your support heroes, as long as at least one of your units is more than 9” away).  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but my opinion is, that is clearly bonkers. 
 

Like @Kasper just said,   I think the issue is people are getting hung up on the meaning of the word “any” in that particular faq. However you can only put it in context with the phrases ‘within 9”’, or ‘more than 9”away’. The faq was written based on the former, and I doubt the writer considered how it might affect the latter (apparently they’re only human). 
 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Azamar

[Galas]

I believed I knew how this rule works, but after reading this thread I don't even know anymore. What is real? Is this all just a fantasy?

[Kasper]

2 hours ago, Galas said:

I believed I knew how this rule works, but after reading this thread I don't even know anymore. What is real? Is this all just a fantasy?

I'll admit I got sucked into the discussion of what the word "any" actually means and got really confused for a moment, especially with the FAQ explaining the word "any".

The truth is it should be pretty simple if you take a step back. Nobody ever questioned how deepstrike abilities work, yet they are worded the exact same way - See below.

 

Everyone knows you can't teleport a unit and place it into combat with an enemy unit, just because another enemy unit is somewhere on the table and further away than 9". Everyone knows you put the ruler down and place your stuff at least 9" away from the closest unit. 

This is the same case with Mad as Hell. It does not work if the unit is within 9" of an enemy unit, even if there is another unit further away than 9".

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

I'll admit I got sucked into the discussion of what the word "any" actually means and got really confused for a moment, especially with the FAQ explaining the word "any".

The truth is it should be pretty simple if you take a step back. Nobody ever questioned how deepstrike abilities work, yet they are worded the exact same way - See below.

 

Everyone knows you can't teleport a unit and place it into combat with an enemy unit, just because another enemy unit is somewhere on the table and further away than 9". Everyone knows you put the ruler down and place your stuff at least 9" away from the closest unit. 

This is the same case with Mad as Hell. It does not work if the unit is within 9" of an enemy unit, even if there is another unit further away than 9".

That's literally what I said, and I also said "There isn't" because there is no confusion on how this ability works and it is not a mystery.