Dracolines

[Evantas]

6 hours ago, Karazor said:

Hi. I'm looking for some advice and thoughts on my list. I'm new to play the kitties so I don't play them so good in my last games. Maybe you guys have some tips how to play a list like this. Thanks for your help. 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (210)
- General
- Command Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Knight-Vexillor (110)
- Pennant of the Stormbringer

Battleline
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warblade & Shield
- 1x Grandblades

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Artillery
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
 

The only difference between your list and mind, is that I switched out the Castallent and Vexillor for a Tauralon, to create hopefully another (kina) anvil. 

Go try and see if it works!

[Lucur]

What was the issue you were having? Were you lacking in overall bord presence and outscored? Or did the cats get nuked before doing enough damage to cripple your opponent?

As i stated above (several times, i feel like an old grumbler ), i like to buff my cats to maximum tankiness (castellant + chrono cogs) to survive the counter attack after they charge and delete a thing. From there you can get a second major threat on the board, as ballistas or some raptors or whatever, and then flesh out the scoring options. It's the latter where i find your list a bit weak, i'd drop 5 Sequitors and a CP for some Palladors. Then there's the Vexillor, imo the cats don't need a teleport, the ballistas are not a good target as they want to stay clumped around the LO, that leaves the Sequitors, which i just recommended to cut ^^ that'd leave you wih some wiggle room for a few aetherwings to get to places.

That's my 2ct

Edited August 17, 2020 by Lucur

[schwabbele]

1 hour ago, Lucur said:

), i like to buff my cats to maximum tankiness (castellant + chrono cogs) to survive the counter attack after they charge and delete a thing.

Totally agree, it’s so important that they somewhat survive the counter attack. 
The cogs never came to my mind, so thanks for mentioning:) I usually mystic shielded them + castellant. 

[Lucur]

2 hours ago, schwabbele said:

Totally agree, it’s so important that they somewhat survive the counter attack. 
The cogs never came to my mind, so thanks for mentioning:) I usually mystic shielded them + castellant. 

Cogs is pretty good, it also helps with offensive with celestial blades + empower. In my original list i ran 20 Sequitors and used cogs on following turns to quickly close and charge with those.

[Evantas]

15 hours ago, Lucur said:

Cogs is pretty good, it also helps with offensive with celestial blades + empower. In my original list i ran 20 Sequitors and used cogs on following turns to quickly close and charge with those.

I'm still sore about the loss of my 20 Sequitor discount. 😭

What kind of balancing is this...

[Lucur]

7 hours ago, Evantas said:

I'm still sore about the loss of my 20 Sequitor discount. 😭

What kind of balancing is this...

Yeah, but then again, it opens up using 10 or 15 and not feeling like a dumb-dumb

Has anyone tried dropping the pride leader Lord Arcanum? I didn't play much these days, but the last match i really struggled to keep the Arcanum in position to buff the unit (read it worked turn one and then never again). If we don't use Sequitors as battleline it's just such a huge investment and we don't really get the CP to buff the dracoline attacks all that much (i mostly run CVs and that CA is plain better if you got only 1 CP to spend).

[Evantas]

6 hours ago, Lucur said:

Yeah, but then again, it opens up using 10 or 15 and not feeling like a dumb-dumb

Has anyone tried dropping the pride leader Lord Arcanum? I didn't play much these days, but the last match i really struggled to keep the Arcanum in position to buff the unit (read it worked turn one and then never again). If we don't use Sequitors as battleline it's just such a huge investment and we don't really get the CP to buff the dracoline attacks all that much (i mostly run CVs and that CA is plain better if you got only 1 CP to spend).

Sometimes I think it's a crutch that we have difficulty overcoming. Honestly though, for just 50pts more you have another 3 Cats, which might do more damage / have more resilience than the buffs the LA could provides. 

[Evantas]

On 8/18/2020 at 10:54 PM, Evantas said:

Has anyone tried dropping the pride leader Lord Arcanum? I didn't play much these days, but the last match i really struggled to keep the Arcanum in position to buff the unit (read it worked turn one and then never again). If we don't use Sequitors as battleline it's just such a huge investment and we don't really get the CP to buff the dracoline attacks all that much (i mostly run CVs and that CA is plain better if you got only 1 CP to spend).

Well, I used LA & Draco lines for 7 games total now.  I got the Pride leader buff in only 4 out of 7 games, maybe 6 turns  total at best out of 21 meaningful turns?  Most of the time the LA did not advance but attempted to charge after the Dracolines. I failed the charge roll once, and in the other 2 games there was no space for the LA to charge into.  I'm not sure if I'm willing to gamble and advance the LA into a death zone assuming that evocators make the charge, only for my evocators to roll ****** on the charge roll. 

The LA got into melee meaningfully once out of the 7 I've played, all other times were either I lost, or I already won anyway. My conclusion has been that the LA on Gryphcharger/Tauralon might actually be better as a meaningful support. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Evantas

[baiardo]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon (280)
- General
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (210)
Knight-Incantor (120)
Knight-Incantor (120)
Lord-Exorcist (90)
Knight-Azyros (100)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)

Battalions
Grand Convocation (130)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Everblaze Comet (100)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97
 

 

What about this?

Tauralon for support the Cats

Comet to lighten the enemy untis

Azyros to support Cats attacks or Heraldor to run and charge. Prefer Azyros with tauralon since he gives already +2 to move.

 

Or :

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon (280)
- General
Knight-Incantor (120)
Knight-Incantor (120)
Lord-Exorcist (90)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield

Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)

Battalions
Grand Convocation (130)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Everblaze Comet (100)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97
 

I think there's some potential  also between taularon judicators/hurricane xbow and the new stormtower garrison.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by baiardo

[Lucur]

With what we have so far and Dominion on the horizon i want to throw some ideas around how to use dracolines going forward. My preferred style (deathstar with all the buffs) is not necessary anymore: Lord Arcanum with prode leader was always hard to get on a large unit and we get all out attack through the prime anyways. Chrono cogs no longer reroll saves, so those are out. Castellant lantern (if it stays how it is) is still solid but could be replaced with the strat, because the old man is slower than the cats. At the end of the day Kittycators seem self sufficient, except for a Heraldor (IF that stays the same). With all that flexibility, what do we add to support everyone's favorite thundercats?

My thoughts are: a unit or two of Annihilators plus Lord Important to pose a deepstrike threat and ****** opponent's pile in. Some Palladors to sneak objectives that don't justify pulling the cats away, as they are the killy part. The rest of the list would be shooting (Judicators/ Raptors, ballistas we'll have to see how the Lordinator turns out) and some speedbumps (aetherwings, Liberators, gryphhounds if cheap).

With what the new strats do and the Dracolines casting empower on themselves i see no need for caster support, unless we get some gems in new spell lores.

The new Vindictors seem like a strong, self-sufficient pick, too, but are quite pricey at 140/5, so not sure if those fit.

So, what are your thoughts on old cats in new clothes?

Edited June 16, 2021 by Lucur

[Marcvs]

I am quite concerned for the cats as a fragile melee unit Vs unleash hell. I would still value the lantern (or mystic shield) in this sense as you cannot use the strat for +1 save against unleash hell (since it happens in the charge phase)

[Lucur]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

I am quite concerned for the cats as a fragile melee unit Vs unleash hell. I would still value the lantern (or mystic shield) in this sense as you cannot use the strat for +1 save against unleash hell (since it happens in the charge phase)

I thought it triggered when a unit is targeted with an attack, which unleash hell should fulfil? Interesting interaction to check, if that is the case, you're totally right.

On second thought, this might be yet a better argument for complementig the cats with deepstrike chargers and/or Palladors, if the latter charge the shooters first, hell can't be unleashed on the cats.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Lucur
afterthought

[PrimeElectrid]

You can also make the Dracolines fly over screens and into shooting units with the new core book spell.

I think they are good at current points. 3 of them count as 6 for scoring, plus innate reroll charges, on demand +1 save or +1 to hit, and the bravery penalty hurts with limited battleshock immunity. Solid.

 

[Milano]

Is there a good reason left to play 6 of them? With the new coherency rules it feels like you actually play 5+1 models

[Lucur]

My reasoning to run 6 was a) stacking buffs and b) enough average MW to snipe a character while attacking another close unit. The former isn't that different, you get more out of your CP, casts and prayers. The latter is probably gone, if most heroes go to 6+ wounds. Also depends on points ofc.

[Milano]

Kitties went up by +20pts in the GHB21. Ouch 🤕 The highest non-hero point increase all over SCE

[Evantas]

On 6/17/2021 at 3:17 AM, Milano said:

Is there a good reason left to play 6 of them? With the new coherency rules it feels like you actually play 5+1 models

I think min units of 3 are the new way to play, they might perform better now that there's a lot more MSU units they can splatter. Need to treat them as light cavalry to punish mistakes and assassinate things, rather than heavy hitters. 

I suspect they're harder to use than Dracothian though, at least till the new book comes out. Which is sad for me. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Evantas

[Lucur]

So with the leaks out, how do we run our kitties? Drakes may be all the hype so far but i don't own any, while i own thundercats and i'm keen to make them work again. Are you ready for rambling of epic proportions?

We're okay with points with the slight hike to 280, getting another dice per model for lightning arcs. Cats don't need to charge to get d3 dmg. We lost rr1sv against shooting and staves are only range 1" now.

I think a unit of 6 is no longer that viable, coherency and reinforcement restrictions be praised. Advantage of running 6 would be more efficient buffs/ commands, while needing way more losses before losing wizard status.

Lord Arcanum on Dracoline is way better than before, also because spells are way better. Starfall or thundershock are both low cast value and amazing effect. Pack Alpha is way better than pride leader ever was. Soul flasks gone afaik takes abit of utility away, but overall better profile compensates that imo.

For stormhosts i'm thinking hammers to gain a bit of survivability after clearing an objective or Celestial Vindicators for even more damage, me personally leaning towards hammers. I didn't memorize all the stormhosts, so i might miss some cooler combo here.

For complementing units, i think a large unit of Judicators with the holy command to shoot twice works well, as well as vindictors cause they don't need much support. A Lord Relictor with translocate is too good to pass up.

From there i think a ballista or two to camp in the back and plink away with the single shot. I also want to add a Knight Incantor or two but at that point points are pretty tight.

What do you fellow furry feline afficionados think?

[readercolin]

Sadly, GW decided not to make a stormhost that make Evokittens battleline.  We are all very disappointed by this decision of theirs, but I suppose that we'll live.  I was however looking forward to 18 kitties...

There are several massive changes that affect kitty builds.  The first is that the Heraldor no longer gives you retreat/run/charge.  This means that if kitties get stuck in, they are staying in until their target is removed.  The second is that you no longer have easy access to the +1 to hit from the Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline, or the re-roll 1's on the charge from celestial vindicators.  The loss of the +1 to his is fairly easily remedied from various other sources, but the loss of re-roll 1's to hit is a fairly noticeable change to their consistency.  Next up, there is no longer an easy way to give a whole unit +1 attacks, like from the Celestial Vindicators command ability.  We do get an 18" bubble of +1 mount attacks from the Lord-Arcanum on dracoline (which since it doesn't cost any CP, is pretty nice).  But there is no way for the whole unit to get extra attacks outside of a once per game ability.  Empower also got changed, so now it is just a +1 to wound, instead of re-rolling... which is... fine?  Kind of makes Celestial blades redundant though.  The final notable change is that the kitties always do d3 damage, no longer d3 only on the charge.

What does all of this mean?  First off, there is really very little reason to want to run kitties in reinforced units anymore.  Since we don't have any good way of just throwing a ton of buffs on them, we probably want to run 1-3 packs of MSU kittens, and if possible stay close to the Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline.  Next, we don't really care about trying to get them to be always charging like we used to, though they are still squishy enough that we don't really want to just leave them stuck in forever.  They are also still one of the fastest units in the book, and the always get re-rollable charges, which should help you get stuck in even if you drop them from the sky, or Translocate them.

Right now, if I were looking to build a kitty focused force, I would look to do something like the following:

Lord-Relictor - general, High Priest, Translocate
Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline
Knight-Azyros

1-3 Evocats
6 Longstrikes
battleline of choice

A force like this could operate well in either a stormkeep or a scions of the storm list.  You have your battleline of choice, some longstrikes + translocate to be able to damage whoever you feel like, the Lord-Arcanum can follow the evokitties around and just keep them in the bubble, and the Knight-Azyros can move up close to provide his +1 to hit bubble, giving our kittes a 2+/2+ profile.  The lack of significant amounts of rend means that they probably want to go around cleaning up battleline/chaff/etc and you will want to bring a big heavy hitter or 3 in to deal with harder targets.

[jeanfluflu]

Dracolines are my favorite models for the stormcasts and the new book is there so how do they play?

Well without playtests we can't really tell but i believe that they are still viable and a great hammer unit, let's compare them to the flying drake because they share the same point values).

making some stats they are pretty much always slitghly better than the drakes and their value increase the more you climb up in save:




here's some numbers against etherial saves (so that we can see the damages against a 4+ unit under mystic shield AND all out defense... you get it).
This isn't counting the MW outup they bring (you can pretty much add 4 or 5 damages for each columns here, drakes can shoot MW and eat one model after they fight so it's rpetty much tied up here).

This said they are good, they can unbind a spell each enemy hero phase and have a little bonus of their own (+1 to wound is great, still worse than empower but it helps).
the native reroll charge guarantee that you'll save some command points and even if they don't charge they still have the D3 damages on the mounts (and the lord arcanum on dracoline has a native buff for these as well without command points again).

So what can we do with this?

well i think we lost the possibility of bringing a big unit of 6 and stack bonuses on them, but is it worth it in a meta full of monsters and MSU?
Having one or two small units is a possibility, they don't need much support to be efficient now.
They can still fight a unit and bring some MW to delete a small wounded character (remember than they now roll 3 dices instead of 2 for each dracoline alive so it's 4 or 5 MW in addition after you attack).

Their weakness is still the same, they are a bit fragile, highly vulnerable to saturation and high rend (like most 4+ unit) and they can't fly so screens are a problem with them so they need another form of support.
In a build with shooting units (judicators by 10, some raptors by 6) or even the new chariots to clean up the protective stuff they will shine.

i'd like to try something like this:

Lord arcanum on dracoline, thundershock
lord relictor with translocation
knight incantor with azyrite halo

3 dracolines
4 concussors
2x5 battlelines (my love is on sequitors for aesthetic reasons but you can save yourself a couple of points with vindictors here)
10 judicators
everblaze comet

everything in a battle regiment which means you can have the first turn pretty easily, also stormkeep seems like the best option here so that our redeemers can count as 15 on objectives, to combine with that astral templar could be a nice stormhost as this list has no big monster.

comet is here for the initial blast, ideally cast by the incantor far from dispell range, for early wound on key support heroes that the shooting or MW or the dracolines or dracoth can finish up.
Judicators can drop wherever you need them to be, ideally you want to could make them shoot twice and finish support heroes early on (even on a 2+ etherial save they deal 4 wounds, maybe it's enough with the blast from the comet to delete a 6 wound sorcerer) and you can then shoot again in the shooting phase to deal some damages to finish a second one or start to rain death on screens that the dracoth can also finish up.

The lord relictor seems an obvious choice on this list, we have two moblie threats but we need some mobility for the poor judicators who could get caught otherwise pretty easily and translocation is the best tool to babysit them and guarantee they'll get the best out of their positioning.
 

here's the plan, i'll hope dracolines will do the work :).

Edited September 15, 2021 by jeanfluflu

[Lucur]

On 9/14/2021 at 11:04 AM, jeanfluflu said:

Snip

Just for reference, what tool did you use to calculate dmg and what numbers did you input? I get greatly different results (and yes i subtracted the lightning arc MWs 😛 )

Assumption: 3 models, 2 swords, 1 stave on the prime, all get full attacks.

Dmg v 6+: 14.5

Dmg v 5+: 12.0

Dmg v 4+: 9.5

Dmg v 3+: 7.0

Dmg v 2+: 4.4

Probably you used 2 staves?

I'd also argue that lightning arcs is stronger than drakes shooting MWs because it happens every fight phase.

[jeanfluflu]

52 minutes ago, Lucur said:

Just for reference, what tool did you use to calculate dmg and what numbers did you input? I get greatly different results (and yes i subtracted the lightning arc MWs 😛 )

Assumption: 3 models, 2 swords, 1 stave on the prime, all get full attacks.

Dmg v 6+: 14.5

Dmg v 5+: 12.0

Dmg v 4+: 9.5

Dmg v 3+: 7.0

Dmg v 2+: 4.4

Probably you used 2 staves?

I'd also argue that lightning arcs is stronger than drakes shooting MWs because it happens every fight phase.

I use this website:
https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/

 

clear graph and easy to use .

But let's not stop the debate on damages, dracolines as well as evocators have a specific role to play on casttle formations.
They can empower ballistas and Castigators (a specific niche i know but why not), i'll try this build to see how it goes:

tauralon
astrea solbright
relictor
3x5 liberators
3 ballistas
5 evocators
3 dracolines
Everblaze comet.

the units of evocators can empower the rapid fire from the ballistas to make it wound on 2+ and the tauralon give his aura to the most people available.
When i need to break out the formation evocators on foot can be translocated somewhere else while Astrea and the dracolines works together (the guarantee +1 to save and the -1 to hit debuff aura from astrea on dracolines can help to make them tank a little bit of damages if i'm fighting something that isn't top tier unit or even hold during opponent's turn after i cleanes the target they where supposed to take out).

IT's a defensive build, i'm not sure about astrea but i want to give her a chance since i have the miniature and i'm happy with her painting.

Edited September 23, 2021 by jeanfluflu

[Lucur]

I have a similar build in mind:

Astreia

Lord Ordinator

Knight Incantor - starfall

Lord Relictor - high priest, translocate, mirrorshield

2x3 Evocats

2x5 Sequitors

5 Liberators

3 Ballistae

It lacks the tauralon (i don't own one and wont get one anytime soon, because... dragons ), but the second unit of cats should help with scoring. I tried to get a 10 man unit of Sequitors in to benefit from Astreia more, but i also want the ballistae to take out support pieces. If i get a 4th ballista i'll drop the LordO, without allies he's not worth his points it seems. Might drop him anyways to get the Sequitors in (10 Seq and 2x5 Libs for BL) depending how playtesting goes.

Re Astreia: i use her as a LAoCD all the time, i'm just curious if her warscroll is worth it this tome ^^

Edited September 23, 2021 by Lucur

[jeanfluflu]

12 hours ago, Lucur said:

2x3 Evocats

I have to try the double evocats someday, it seems like a great way to secure flanks and spread the menaces in the lists.
Like to one want to endure 3 ballistas shots per turn for 5 rounds so they need to come to you in that setup, having 2 evocats means you could be wherever you need to with a great counterpunch unit :).

I don't have those unfortunately, that's why i kept the second unit of evocators on foot (and probably TP them with the relictor).

i'd be curious to see how it goes with this build, let us know here when you can.

[lare2]

First time running evocats last night. Ran 3 backed up with a LA on dracoline up the right flank. I was pleasantly surprised with how hard they hit. They killed a full health mega gargant in 2 rounds of combat and secured an objective in the enemies turf. I'm definitely looking at them in a new light this morning.