General Strategy: Beating Upcoming Shooting Meta

[Keilerei]

I am not the most experienced player, but I like to compete from time to time in official tournaments. I play mainly destruction (gitz & jawz) and I struggle a lot against shooting heavy lists. In my group is a Skaven player who runs 12 Stormfiends, and another member rocks 30+ buffed up Irondrakes in a Tempest Eye dwarf list. And now, after what I've heard, was pre faq'd Tzeentch doing overly well in recent tourneys.  Mostly with some cheesy strategy, in preventing the opponent from retreating from 10-20 Pinks and lighting them up with Flamers from behind. The most competitive SCE list includes the usage of Hurricanes by a lot. KO and Cities have a lot of shots as well.  And the upcoming Seraphon and Pointy Elves release will produce also strong shooty options (by comparing the old stuff). 

Do you have any tips along the lines of good deployment, screening, going defensive/offensive. Right now, as my chosen faction, does not really have the option of shooting back effectively. My "gameplan" is to cast geminids and hope my stuff does not get shot off, before I reach my opponents screens. And then I get deleted, lol.

I can only assume, but my guess is that shooting will be very prominent in the future. And maybe we can discuss here, how to deal with that meta shift. Or maybe in your oppinion shooting is fine and I just need to "git gud". Your thoughts on AOS is a melee driven game and should stay that way. Let's have some fun with it.

[Dead Scribe]

I think that you should look at what your opponent takes and what you take and math some probabilities out and see where your math is deficient.  My guess is that your opponent's lists are many times more powerful than yours, and no strategy in the world will help you.  

You would need to post your list and your opponents list to get a really good idea in how mismatched the two are in math.  

Anything in this game is fine if you have the properly tuned list for it.  The math is heavy in this game, and if you aren't tuning your list you are going to struggle.

Also gitz are not really a list you can tune very high in comparison to skaven.  I don't really know what to tell you if you want to be competitive at the tournament level but want to run gitz.  Short of loaded dice, you are going to struggle with them.

[Keilerei]

This would be my Gitz list: 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz

Leaders
Skragrott, The Loonking (220)
- General
- Lore of the Moonclans: The Great Green Spite
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (280)
- Artefact: Headdress of Many Eyes
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Sneaky Distraction
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Moonclans: Itchy Nuisance
Webspinner Shaman (80)
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Sneaky Distraction
Loonboss (70)

Battleline
60 x Stabbas (360)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
- 9x Barbed Nets
- 1x Moonclan Flag Bearers
- 1x Badmoon Icon Bearers
40 x Stabbas (260)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
- 6x Barbed Nets
- 1x Moonclan Flag Bearers
- 1x Badmoon Icon Bearers
6 x Squig Herd (70)

Units
6 x Sneaky Snufflers (70)
15 x Boingrot Bounderz (300)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Scuttletide (30)
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Scrapskuttle's Arachnacauldron (40)
Malevolent Moon (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 187
 

my IJ (Big Waagh) 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Big Wurrgog Mask
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Quicksilver Swords (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

 

My mates tempest eye (something like this)

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye

Leaders
Warden King (110)
- General
- Trait: Hawk-eyed
Runelord (90)
Runelord (90)
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit (220)
- Artefact: Zephyrite Banner

Battleline
20 x Irondrakes (300)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
30 x Ironbreakers (330)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields

Units
9 x Endrinriggers (300)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124
 

My other mate's skaven list (also grain of salt):

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (320)
- General
- Trait: Cunning
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
6 x Stormfiends (520)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 155
 

 

Maybe not the strongest builds (all 4 of them) we are casual players that like to go 3-2 on tournaments. We like to have fun and play with the toys we like, not what's strong o super meta.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Keilerei

[Dead Scribe]

Well based off of my spreadsheets, you are significantly weaker than your opponents.  So that is why you are going to be struggling.

If you are a casual player that likes to play to have fun but not field whats strong in the meta, I say just keeping doing what you are doing with the knowledge you aren't going to do well in tournaments.  

As to your casual games you are going to have to pick up some faster and hard hitting units if you want to have better games (if you care about that, I assume yes or you wouldn't have posted asking for help).  The squig knight things are pretty good (for gitz).  

[SleeperAgent]

Fly directly at them. Silly people, bullets can't hurt ghosts

[JackStreicher]

There are endless spells that help against shooting (palisade and gravetide as examples)

[Chumphammer]

having recently played a game where the person had a full shooting list and shot half my army off when he got the double turn 1-2, I thought I was done. However, as my troops were a lot lot better than his in combat, when the survivors did get into them they tabled the army bar 1 model.

It put you on a back foot when you get hit so hard you think its over, but just keep going.

Never give up, never surrender...*



*unless you are tabled or you are so far behind on VP's that you cannot catch up even if everything goes your way

[Phasteon]

6 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

having recently played a game where the person had a full shooting list and shot half my army off when he got the double turn 1-2, I thought I was done. However, as my troops were a lot lot better than his in combat, when the survivors did get into them they tabled the army bar 1 model.

It put you on a back foot when you get hit so hard you think its over, but just keep going.

Never give up, never surrender...*



*unless you are tabled or you are so far behind on VP's that you cannot catch up even if everything goes your way

This. Everything in AoS can and will eventually die if the enemy focusses it. So losing units should never break your morale as a player. 

Its just about how efficient he will do it and how efficient you take things in return. 

Imo a unit of 60 grots is the most efficient and most annoying thing you can play against a shooting army. They are easily made immune to battleshock and have a 4+ Save against shooting. And 30 can come back after the original 60 died.

You would need so many points of shooting to clear them off of an objective that your other points worth of units should be able to control the board and kill chunks of his army. 

If he shoots the other stuff first your 60 bodies may claim multiple objectives to a point where it might be to late for him to get them off the objective. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Phasteon

[Sesom]

Your could try dropping the snufflers and an endless spell to take a unit of Sporesplattas. They can screen some of your units from shooting and still help with the +attacks buff.

[Superninja]

 

@Keilerei

I have to ask, Where are the Fanatics?  Those guys are crazy good imo.

[Kadeton]

List specifics aside, I'd start by thinking about general tactics.

You need to be aware of your opponent's and your own ranges. There are three that I think are significant, and that I tend to refer to as threat range, screen range and retaliation range.

Threat range is the simplest: How far away can your opponent's shooting units be at the start of his turn, and still put shots into your army? If you're outside of this range, you're completely safe. If they're using teleports (as most shooting lists do) then this range may be effectively unlimited (but not necessarily for all the units in their army, and not necessarily guaranteed) - in that case, just accept that you'll almost certainly get shot, but be aware of anything that might disrupt those plans. A strong unbinding bonus can counter a Soulscream Bridge, for example, and leave a Cities shooting force floundering out of position for a turn.

Screen range is a little more subtle, and only matters for highly-mobile and short-ranged shooting. Let's say your opponent has devastating firepower that can teleport anywhere on the board at least 9" away from your units - how far behind your front line do your valuable key pieces have to be in order to be safe, or to significantly reduce the incoming fire? An Arkanaut Frigate's main gun can probably reach anywhere it wants, but its Aethershot Carbines only have a 12" range, so if your elite units or heroes are more than 3" behind a screening unit they will avoid a big chunk of its firepower.

Retaliation range takes your own forces into account as well. After the enemy shooting units attack, how close to your forces will they have had to come, and what do you have that can close that gap? If you're constantly getting shot from outside your retaliation range (i.e. "kited") then you need to address the fact that your list might be too slow-moving to survive in a shooting meta. Unless you're running a list that can get shot for the whole game without punching back and still hold objectives (massive units of Gitz, maybe?) then you're going to have to find a way to speed it up.

[Fisren]

As a gitz player, I find myself fielding palisades and sporesplattas from time to time if I know my friends plan on playing shooting heavy lists to at least protect the core heroes for turn1/2. Another common tactic I use is Hand of Gork for a unit of stabbas, hiding fanatics in them can allow for a easy-er 6" fanatic charge into enemy backlines if they aren't careful with screening, or at least provide additional threats on the board. 

Apart from that, we tend to setup with 1~2 pieces of citadel woods terrain to prevent line of sight, or have terrain which can block line of sight near the middle (this way shooting armies will still have targets, but you'll still be able to hide a few key targets.  

 

[Kasper]

16 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Well based off of my spreadsheets, you are significantly weaker than your opponents.  So that is why you are going to be struggling.

Must be some mastermind spreadsheet to determine that. What makes you think the IJ list is weak? The Skaven list doesn't seem "significantly stronger".

Edited February 4, 2020 by Kasper

[Eevika]

9 hours ago, Superninja said:

 

@Keilerei

I have to ask, Where are the Fanatics?  Those guys are crazy good imo.

No they arent. Over pointed and too much rng 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Eevika said:

No they arent. Over pointed and too much rng 

Really?

I find them rather interesting.

either they do an immense amount of damage or non at all.

perfectly fine balanced unit for any gobbo army out there😂

[Dead Scribe]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

Must be some mastermind spreadsheet to determine that. What makes you think the IJ list is weak? The Skaven list doesn't seem "significantly stronger".

Yeah.  A mastermind spreadsheet lmao.  I'm not remotely getting into a math debate on these forums, some of you and your strict adherence to math not mattering makes it not worth it.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Dead Scribe

[Eevika]

Just now, Skreech Verminking said:

Really?

I find them rather interesting.

either they do an immense amount of damage or non at all.

perfectly fine balanced unit for any gobbo army out there😂

They were good before. Now almost every army has access to always fights first and their value is not that high anymore. 

[Phasteon]

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yeah.  A mastermind spreadsheet lmao.  I'm not remotely getting into a math debate on these forums, some of you and your strict adherence to math not mattering makes it not worth it.

Then we will just take your word for it 😉

[Kasper]

7 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yeah.  A mastermind spreadsheet lmao.  I'm not remotely getting into a math debate on these forums, some of you and your strict adherence to math not mattering makes it not worth it.

Haha, fair enough man. I'm just genuinely curious how you determine if it is weak or not, just like that.

[NJohansson]

30 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yeah.  A mastermind spreadsheet lmao.  I'm not remotely getting into a math debate on these forums, some of you and your strict adherence to math not mattering makes it not worth it.

Still - would be really interesting to see the thought process. I assume it is something down the lines of unit X averages Y amount of hits/wounds (then various amount of damage subject to rend) divides by unit cost? 

The above seems fairly easy to evaluate. Then one can do the same for a units toughness (wounds/save, special abilities to -hit/wound and also divided by cost). Once you have offensive and defensive output you need to somehow evaluate what is worth the most.

Here it starts to get really tricky because even if you get offense/defense right you then need to add movement, range, special abilities, synergies with other units, possible buffs etc.

I am not saying that it can’t be done, but I don’t see how it is achieved in a spreadsheet - but if possible I would love to understand how?

[Dead Scribe]

The first trick in creating a spreadsheet of numbers is realizing that the numbers are not absolute.  There is no spreadsheet that will say "this will win you the game every time".  

This is always where people start to argue.  they will hone in on scores on a spreadsheet and then say "yeah but you say this score is this, but I have seen that unit lose before so your spreadsheet is wrong and math cannot be used".  That has nothing to do with what you use a tool like this for.

If you know a units base offense and defense capabilities, and know how to score movement, that gives you a solid baseline to use judgement on the other areas of the game you cannot properly math and determine odds and probabilities and maximize them in your favor.

If you are going into a game with an army that has a big difference in its offense and defense and movement scores vs your opponent, you will be having a very difficult game.

Its also something that nearly every top tournament player already does and is a key component in how they seem to easily know matchups that other people struggle with.  

The roster that the OP has provided has a substantially lower overall score than the others he posted, which falls in line with his observation that he is struggling against them as well, because he should be.  The spreadsheet indicates he will be having very difficult games.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Dead Scribe

[Beastmaster]

What about ambushing units, killing enough shooters to weaken their output, or at least soaking up shots until the others are in charge range?

[Kasper]

20 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

The first trick in creating a spreadsheet of numbers is realizing that the numbers are not absolute.  There is no spreadsheet that will say "this will win you the game every time".  

This is always where people start to argue.  they will hone in on scores on a spreadsheet and then say "yeah but you say this score is this, but I have seen that unit lose before so your spreadsheet is wrong and math cannot be used".  That has nothing to do with what you use a tool like this for.

If you know a units base offense and defense capabilities, and know how to score movement, that gives you a solid baseline to use judgement on the other areas of the game you cannot properly math and determine odds and probabilities and maximize them in your favor.

If you are going into a game with an army that has a big difference in its offense and defense and movement scores vs your opponent, you will be having a very difficult game.

Its also something that nearly every top tournament player already does and is a key component in how they seem to easily know matchups that other people struggle with.  

The roster that the OP has provided has a substantially lower overall score than the others he posted, which falls in line with his observation that he is struggling against them as well, because he should be.  The spreadsheet indicates he will be having very difficult games.

That is quite interesting.

As an IJ player, when I look at the BW list compared to the Skaven one, I don't see how the Skaven list will win. Seems like a fairly straight forward match with no threats the BW list can't handle. 

[Aphotic]

I think the trick is to ambush after the shooting army has its first turn. Playing against Living City alot with BoC and LoG, I've learned that the ambush ability of the army is really difficult to pin down. BoC seem to mitigate this by being able to ambush themselves.

 

Not entirely sure. I think Nurgle needs and update and you will see some of the shooting lists take a back seat once they're updated.

[Frowny]

I think you have all the tools to play well and win games. Your lists are solidly built and I think you can make it a close game without trying to much. I think the secrets are patients and objectives. You have plenty of firepower to table him and win in the late game, and plenty of bodies to force him out of his corner by winning on objectives. Take objectives, force him to move out, and then when he does so, you will start seeing holes where you can get your faster threats into his softer targets. 

Grots vs dwarves: objectives are your friend. Getting 60 grots off an objective is brutal for any list. Feel free to use your CP's to guarantee 6 inch runs to get you there if you need. If you are forced into t1, run or TP the 60 man unit up, and hold all the objectives. String them out so he can't get anywhere near your heroes. 60 grots can make a very very big bubble, and if he does get up close to try to shoot your heroes or whatnot over them, the bounderz and grots themselves should have a nice countercharge into whatever got too close. If he kills the grots, bring them back and do it again. You are now ahead on objectives and his slow shooting army is likey pinned back in his deployment. You may lose all your models, but he has almost nothing that can get up the field with any speed, so if you take an early lead, you will likely hold it. 

Grots vs. Skaven: Again, walk the grots up. They will beat clanrats if you just take the front-on engagement, so he is forced to use his big hitters to swing it back in his favor. Now you may have charge range with the bounderz. Consider using the squig herd on a mawhole so he can't sneaky get to your objectives or support characters. 

Ironjawz vs. Dwarves: You should have choice of turn. Give him first turn and then deploy well back. You have tons of speed to catch him if you want, so he will be forced to waste his turn just walking forward. His threat range is 16+8+d6 on T1= 25 inches minimum. On t2 it drops to only 22inches. Your gore-gruntas and mawkcrusher can each reliably go 27-30 with rampaging destroyers. This is where you win the game, in that 6 inch margin, so measure it out.  Also, his shooting falls off a lot of the irondrakes have to move. With rampaging destroyers, again, even your ardboyz can reliably go more than 16. (10+charge on a +1), so don't let him get the double shots. 

Ironjawz vs. Skaven: again, you should have choice of turn, and probably want to give him t1. Place your gruntas and heros back a bit, so he can't get them and give him first turn. Either he will have to move up past his clanrats to shoot you, as the stormfiends are faster, or he will have to not shoot you turn 1. Now push the ardboyz forward and play cagey with the faster elements. You will probably have charge range with them into the clanrats and will crump em good. If you don't, move up anyway. Either you get double turn and can charge his whole front line, or you don't, and he gets only a single turn of shooting before you hit him with your entire army. You may need to keep something back on mawholes just so he can't get a nice alphastrike through them.

Looking at your lists, I think you might want a few faster threats.  the ironjawz especially would benefit from another unit of pigs (gruntas or boarboyz), maybe over a unit of ardboyz. That would give you a lot more mobility. For the grots, you might just want more grots. I don't know what the arachnarok spider does, but I might think about dropping that for more grots or bounderz or something. I think 15 bounderz may be hard to get into combat, so 10 might be fine.