Warcry - Beasts of chaos discussion

[Warpedstorm]

These are the ones I’ve been looking forward to 

[Maddpainting]

I love them. I'm so glad Gors are finally good. The dual wield gor is same stats as a Ghoul but with 2 more wounds for same points. A leader Bullgor will be auto included in all my lists lol, i just wish there was a leader Dragon Ogre, hmmm wonder why not?

What i think about the abilities
Generic, All: Its ok, its one of those you need to have some luck to work due to its only turn 1, makes sense to be turn 1 for Beastmen tho, very fluffy.
Double Bullgor only: The Bullgor healing him on kills something is amazing IMO, its a double so you should have it when you need it, healing for a 1-6 amount also is good. If you heal him it makes him all that much more scary.
Triple Bestigor only: I don't like the Bestigors abilities, it in theory could trigger twice if you kill something off the first time, but its a triple to hurt 1 model most the time.
Triple Raider only: Raiders is fine for a triple you get an extra 2 shots at range and this should do less damage than the bestigors triple but you don't have to move and if you need to kill something you can't reach it gives you a better chance. Tho it still will be more situational to use and a bit more rare.
Quad Dragons only:  The Dragon Ogre quad is so costly for D6 damage on a 2+, but b.c it is 20" range i guess i understand why. 
Leaders: I think its god, it a normal Quad that gives you move and fight, really strong on a Bullgor, its ok on the Bestigor/Gor, not good on the Ungor/Raider.

 

How i will most likely play them
I think my list will normal start with Bullgor leader, Dragon ogre, 3 Gors. Then from their see if i want another Bullgors or Dragon Ogre, or even 1 of each lol, and then if i only do 1 more either DO/BG i'll for sure go with either more  Gors and Raiders. I like the idea of a couple shooting models to hide and fire for objective games, so might pick them over more Gors at first.

Over all i like them a lot and can't wait to play them.

I think i want to try one of these 2 lists first then go from there, my goal is to never have less than 7 fighters.

Bullgor leader Dual wield
Dragon Ogre Dual wield
Dragon Ogre Dual wield
Gor Dual wield
Gor Dual wield
Gor Dual wield
Gor Dual wield
Raider
Raider
Total 995pts

Bullgor leader Dual wield
Bullgor Dual wield
Dragon Ogre Dual wield
Dragon Ogre Dual wield
Gor Dual wield
Gor Dual wield
Gor Dual wield
Total: 990pts

[Myrdin]

Over all I think these turned out much better than what I was expecting. I  was really expecting a fail similar to DoK, but after seeing this I`ll be picking up my card blister for sure.

Now I detest the fact that Dragon Ogors are so lukewarm. They should have been Toughness 5, especially when you compare them to normal Ogors. Also the minotaurs having less damage and Toughness than Ogors rubs me the wrong way. But they are also 30pts cheaper per type, so that ones is not so bad. The Dragon Ogors are the ones who seem a bit botched. Expected them being less punchy but 40W T5 or so. 

Its funny that basic Gor is "worse" than an Ungor due to how shields work in Warry. But the fact is, while they "seem" worse. They are actually amazing. 10W M5 model for 55pts with decent fighting stats for its price range make it really good option for swarming list.

The Gor leader is surprisingly very solid! At 170, you are getting an equivalent of your typical Native Warcry Leader. Honestly he is better than the Bestigor one, who only gets 2W and DMG5 crit for 15 pts... 15pts can possibly get you another Gor depending on the list

So yeah Gor Leader is absolutely viable!

Not sure about the Ungor archers. Seem a bit to expensive and their leader doesnt get more shots either.

Out of Minotaurs I think Both leaders are pretty decent, though Its lame that the Great weapon one have only dmg 3/6. Still both are solid. 

What I am thinking abut for this warband is a either a Gor or Minotaur paired weapon Leader, bunch of pw gors, two ungor archers, and then as many dragon ogors as I can possibly stuff in. The Draconic cleaver one seems worse at first glance but once you take his 2" range into account, he is actually very very good. This is coming from someone who runs bunch of the snake girls in DoK, and those are only S3 Dmg1. So this is like more powerful version of them for pretty much the same price. The Bestigors seem like the worst choice of all of this, which is kinda sad and funny at the same time thinking as they are a mainstay in every BoC list in regular AoS  

So stat wise the band is pretty solid. Not amazing, but absolutely not horrible. Pretty decent and certainly competitive.

What I think is however not amazing is the abilities. The ambush is absolutely horrible. Its so much worse than Orc Charge skill and has limitation of first turn only. Bloodgreed doesnt really seem good either as you heal for the value but need to kill something first... Respite is better though more expensive. 

Rip and Gore is very good for a double, though you need to kill something. Good way to make your leader be even more effective.

Bestial charge is the weird one out because its tied to Bestigors.... I dont like this and honestly this should have been a neutral ability usable by all, seeing as Bestigors are pretty sub par choice.

Not sure about the Tripple Volley of Arrows either. The archers are a bit more on the expensive side, and the ability seems a bit meek. It could have been extra shot and +1S then it would be good. But its not horrible if and does have some use I suppose.

The Quad.... I mean 20" range and set damage is nice, really nice for softening or finishing targets up. But due to how the non Warcry armies break the game due to massively inflated Wound pools on their units this is again fairly situational, and it being a quad aint exactly a making it any easier to use either.

This is the list draft I am looking at right now.

Gor Leader 170 / Bestigor 185

2x Ungor Raiders 140

5x Gors with paired weapons 275 / 3 with paired and 2 with shields 295 (good meat shields for Cleaver DO)

1x Dragon Ogor with Cleaver 195

1x Dragon Ogor with Paired weapons 195 (Minotaur with paired weapons has less attacks no do buff to Crit, so even with S5 its not as attractive option. Plus he is slower so there`s that.)

975 pts. This is the draft,  Due to the extra points left, its possible to swap in two gors with shields (995), or upgrade the leader to a Bestigors (990).

Sure I could go with Ungors instead, but I wanna use Gors at least for something, since they are already outclassed in AoS and dont see much table outside of specific battalions. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Myrdin

[Warpedstorm]

Thanks for the comprehensive thoughts, I’m finding them very helpful. Never played them before or AoS but keen to try them out in warcry.

totally agree on the paired weapon Minotaur over the ogre, ogre every time as S5 isn’t worth it over the extra move and attack.

interested why you say the Bestigor is sub-par, he seemed quite a hard hitter for 115 and immediately caught my eye 

got the starter set do really looking forward to seeing what I can build and may have to purchase a few more beast toys

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Warpedstorm said:

Thanks for the comprehensive thoughts, I’m finding them very helpful. Never played them before or AoS but keen to try them out in warcry.

totally agree on the paired weapon Minotaur over the ogre, ogre every time as S5 isn’t worth it over the extra move and attack.

interested why you say the Bestigor is sub-par, he seemed quite a hard hitter for 115 and immediately caught my eye 

got the starter set do really looking forward to seeing what I can build and may have to purchase a few more beast toys

Hmmm, ok since you are not familiar with Beastmen much let me put it like this:

Bestigor is pretty amazing, cheap low tier elite unit. He is fast and hits just hard enough to be considered elite. A very good pick in regular AoS.

The problem in the Warcry warband, is the price. His stats are all very solid, similar to Untamed Beast Axe guy. So he can definitely get in there and hit hard. But when you consider the fact that DragOgers and Minotaurs have 30W each, for a price increase of 80 points it makes you stop and puase. You can get a DragO or Minotaur.

But that is not to say, he is bad. He might be subpar in some lists, but can become very strong choice in others. As you can see from mine and Madpaintings lists, Boc can have quite the big amount of miniatures on the tables.

Lets say you want to go with a list that has many models and score for objectives and ground control. For each DragOg or Minotaur you take you can take a Bestigor and another Gor/Ungor. So fielding 12/13 miniatures where objectives are they key is really solid option here.

Bestigors can deliver the punch, if you play them right, but they cant really take it in return, so in that case you must be prepared to sacrifice your guys as necessary. But they are not a bad pick, definitely not. They can work well in a swarm list where you have bunch of weak guys for sacrifice and board control and then throw you Bestigors and leader at the priority targets to remove them.  You are paying extra 10pts for his extra 1 point of Move and 2W when compared to the Untamed Beasts Axeman.  But the speed does add up especially when using the movement buffing abilities so make it work in your favor.

It all depends on your play style but essentially with BoC you can do both Swarm, Monster Mash, and something in between fairly well. I would encourage to try it all and see which one you have the most fun with  

Edited January 31, 2020 by Myrdin

[Poppins]

My Warcry set gets delivered tomorrow but knowing the Beastmen would have a band has me more excited. These are sentimental favorites from when I played WFB back in 1st and 2nd E. I only have a Minotaur I converted over for my Bloodbowl team (and my bloodbowl beastmen) right now. What should I buy?  A box of Gors and some random Ungor?  Find something for the Dragon Ogre and maybe another Minotaur somewhere?

Is there a warband starter announced for this group?  Haven’t seen it. 
 

Since I haven’t really played but have studied up which existing band should I look to for a similar playstyle so I can watch some videos and study. Not for competitive but casual play. 
 

Thanks!

[Maddpainting]

I think the best use of Bestigors is if you ar eonly taking 2 Big guys (DO/BG's) you have enough points for padding now and b.c they are mid tier they will make up for bodies and damage over 3-4 big models with lots of Gors. 

But you are now in a odd place b.c you need the bestigors to deal some damage before they die, and they will die fast, so you are relaying on lots of Doubles to get that extra attack and movement to make sure you hit first and get some extra hits off. And thats the real problem with them, they are just a bit to weak and just a bit to costly to fill that roll. But b.c they are T4 against some armies it will take 2 attacks to kill 1, and against other, well 1 attack and your done. So they are completely viable, just you need to make sure are ready for that playstyle and you will lose some matchups much easier than say with 3 big guys with a few Gors.

B.c in Warcry you never degrade, 30 wound models with good movement (Its why FeC is so good) can kill a guy or 2 a turn, meaning every turn that goes buy you become weaker and weaker, so having throw away guys is good, 2-3 big fast killing units with fast moving blockers to deny a real kill (Why SCE is so good) is key.

BoC does with with somewhat better than many other armies, but not as good as a couple (Like FeC and SCE, and goblins can do it well too). We have hte big guys with 1-2" faster speed than a lot of other big guys in the same point range, we have lots of small guys with 1" and 2w better than others with the same point range as well. We just don;t have so fly units like FeC/SCE/Gitz. 

Tl:DR Bestigors are fine, but you are losing out on some good mechanics of the game and relay on some good rolls, they work better with less high cost models.


Now with that said, i will try out this list for sure for fun. Mostly b.c i love the models and have them painted already.
Bestigor Leader
8 Bestigors

[Myrdin]

@Maddpainting

I would personally drop one Bestigor and pick up two Gors. Just so you have some disposable speed bumps to throw int the way of your enemy.

And if its about looks you can take the Gor unit champions who look a bit more tough and usually wear an armor piece here or there, to keep the "Veteran Beastmen" look

[Maddpainting]

Nah its a fun list!

[Chaos Shepard]

I think people are selling the bestagor's bestial charge ability a little short.  Flat guarantied damage should never be ignored, flat ability damage no less. This can be critical at chasing down a fleeing target.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Chaos Shepard

[Lord Krungharr]

Did these new cards come with allies anywhere yet?  Like maybe a Doombull or Great Bray Shaman?!

[Maddpainting]

1 hour ago, Chaos Shepard said:

I think people are selling the bestagor's bestial charge ability a little short.  Flat guarantied damage should never be ignored, flat ability damage no less. This can be critical at chasing down a fleeing target.

It still is useful and will work, and at times do well b.c you get strait D6 damage to 1-2 fighters. But your spending a triple to move 5" and deal some extra damage. If you rolled a trip 5 or 6, yeah it'll be good, but anything under thatan Double will be better, even +1atk most the time will give you 2D more. So yes it is fine, but my point is, that ability isn't strong enough to "want" to bring a bestigor just for it.

[Maddpainting]

On 1/31/2020 at 3:55 PM, Lord Krungharr said:

Did these new cards come with allies anywhere yet?  Like maybe a Doombull or Great Bray Shaman?!

We have a Shaman, 165pt, T4, Move 4, 25 wounds, melee and range attack, Double ability that forces a enemy unit with 14"? (maybe 12 or 16" going off memory) to Jump D6 towards you (w/e the ability amount is, meaning its easy to get a double 6 to make them Jump 6"), the range attack is 2A, str4, 3/6 i think? 

It is very strong IMO, i used it a lot in the past, pull people off tops, out of terrain, onto terrain, off of objectives, into melee range, etc...

Edited February 3, 2020 by Maddpainting

[decker_cky]

13 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Out of Minotaurs I think Both leaders are pretty decent, though Its lame that the Great weapon one have only dmg 3/6. Still both are solid. 

Minotaur leader with GW is damage 3/8.

Edited February 1, 2020 by decker_cky

[Myrdin]

13 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

It still is useful and will work, and at times do well b.c you get strait D6 damage to 1-2 fighters. But your spending a triple to move 5" and deal some extra damage. If you rolled a trip 5 or 6, yeah it'll be good, but anything under thatan Double will be better, even +1atk most the time will give you 2D more. So yes it is fine, but my point is, that ability isn't strong enough to "want" to bring a bestigor just for it.

This is why I said, this would`ve been good if it was universal for all units, or at least for another one like DragO or Minos.

Also funny they didnt include Centigors. I mean thats just a single profile card, no weapon option. But I get it, ancient ****** sculpts that no one buys means no card or interest in them. Still seeing the chaos Marauder horseman, I would welcome a 12"M 20W T4 (shield), 4A S3 1/4 150pts fast objective grabber. And if he had the charge ability it would have made up for an attractive choice.

Also just checked: Shaman is only S3 unfortunately. I wasnt really convinced by its stat, but reading your comment it does make for an interesting utility option, where the ability to pull your opponent into combat or of an objective does add a lot of value.

  

9 hours ago, decker_cky said:

Minotaur leader with GW is damage 3/8.

Ahh, my poor eyes. You are correct. Hmm I wonder, Crit dmg 8 is not bad, especially with extra attack from universal Double. Though the base damage 3 is a bit meh with 3A only.... but it does make him a bit more interesting, especially if you get to do two attack activation's, when compared to the other the dual wielding option

Edited February 1, 2020 by Myrdin

[BarfAtTheMoon]

I like the amount of variety we'll see in the BoC Lists, considering how many leader choices we have available.  Even though DO don't get a leader option I think we'll see a lot of the two handed one as the main muscle for a lot of lists.

Personally I'm pretty set on the Bullgor leader for my band, with either one other bullgor and a lot of chaff or with just a lot of raiders and ungors running around making a ruckus.  We can fit a Bullgor leader and 11 other bodies in 1000 points, which I'm sure will make things challenging for most elite warbands, and can keep up with most hordeish warbands as well.  Our abilities aren't amazing, but I think they've got utility, especially the Bullgor heals and the ungor shooting triple.

Hopefully trying out a few games tomorrow, so we'll see how I do!

[Warpedstorm]

3 hours ago, BarfAtTheMoon said:

I like the amount of variety we'll see in the BoC Lists, considering how many leader choices we have available.  Even though DO don't get a leader option I think we'll see a lot of the two handed one as the main muscle for a lot of lists.

Personally I'm pretty set on the Bullgor leader for my band, with either one other bullgor and a lot of chaff or with just a lot of raiders and ungors running around making a ruckus.  We can fit a Bullgor leader and 11 other bodies in 1000 points, which I'm sure will make things challenging for most elite warbands, and can keep up with most hordeish warbands as well.  Our abilities aren't amazing, but I think they've got utility, especially the Bullgor heals and the ungor shooting triple.

Hopefully trying out a few games tomorrow, so we'll see how I do!

Definitely keen to hear how you get on, still got my starter set waiting to build the good options 

[Wrinklestiltskin]

Isn’t our raider triple ability exactly the same as the bonesplitter one that got errata’d?

I’m slightly confused by that one.

[BarfAtTheMoon]

27 minutes ago, Wrinklestiltskin said:

Isn’t our raider triple ability exactly the same as the bonesplitter one that got errata’d?

I’m slightly confused by that one.

Ours only adds the one attack per action for the single fighter, so it doesn't seem  too broken as that means it's a max of 2 attacks per action.  I'm not sure of the ability you're referring too, but I don't see any need to errata this one considering how not broken it is.

[Warpedstorm]

So had a chance to go through the cards and I’m liking what I am seeing.

2 initial lists jump out and would be keen on your thoughts

 

bestigor leader: 185

2 dragon ogres with paired weapons 390

1 dragon ogre with dual wield mace 195

2 ungors  with shield 120

2 gors paired weapons 110

8 models bang on 1000

 

and a different approach

bestigor leader 185

7 bestigors, 805

8 models at 990

[Maddpainting]

The Bonespliters is completely different theirs is for 1 attack action but gets that amount of attack for the ability, they made it 1/2 round up, so they could have gotten +6 attacks for a triple, now its max +3, we are +1atk for each attack action for a max of 2 attacks.  So Bonespliters really only want to use theirs on a 3+ ability.

[girafarig]

yes, bestigors only seems fluffy and also on my mind (like a squad of uruk hai running around, haha) and also very flexible as they have decent movement, defenses and choppiness and there is always one who could charge with a good triple. i think they are basically gold standard in terms of the pointvalue of 115 and 2 damage guys, compared to other similiar warbands but who have different - and + stats like slow hardboys or frail unmade. the bestigor are jack of all trades and faster or more robust to adapt to some missions but they must still be used wisely.

Edited February 1, 2020 by girafarig

[decker_cky]

Everyone should start their warband with 2 ungor raiders, 2 spear ungors, and a gor champion or bestigors, just to use the gorgeous beastgrave models.

[Wrinklestiltskin]

[Triple] Loadsa Arrows: Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of attack actions made by this fighter that target an enemy fighter more than 3" away. (All Arrowboys, 2 shots, strength 3, 1/3 damage)

errata:
Change ‘Loadsa Arrows’ to:
‘[Triple] Loadsa Arrows: Add half the value of this ability (rounding up) to the Attacks characteristic of the next attack action made by this fighter this activation that targets an enemy fighter more than 3" away
 

So I’m kinda expecting to get an errata as well. Just wondering how the timeline of when the cards were written was.

Anyways, love this warband. Started kitbashing and greenstuffing on some bestigors this week. Found an unpainted great brayshaman and some gors. So I have enough to get started.

 

[Maddpainting]

We are not getting fix there is no reason too.  Actually the Raiders triple is worst in everyway, why would a worst ability be fixed?

Raiders: Max 2 attacks if you use both attack actions, if they move they can only get 1 more shot. 
Bonesplitters: Max 3 attacks and gets it for 1 attack action, if they move they still can get 3 shots.

So they can move and shoot with more shots than us. Our triples are very weak.
 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Maddpainting