Katakros VS Archaon who would win?

[Turragor]

 

[Charleston]

Well, Archaon will clearly be the winner of this story part. I mean, he already won the whole content of the book.

Althrough I can imagine that Katakross can keep up with Archaon 1v1, there is one big thing that bothers me with the assault on the Eightpoints: It is a siege. A siege is usually build around cutting your enemy from any supplies and keep him at bay untill thoose supplies are gone and the lines fall apart on their own. Archaon has still 7 Realmgates available, also, Katakross literarely stings into the nest of some mad hornets. So Chaos pushing back Katakross is quite set for me.

[Samukai]

Although Katakros is spearheading the invasion (or distraction?), i think some of the other Mortarchs and/or Nagash may be trying to achieve something very specific that we are currently unaware of. Taking the Chaos capital seems too bold even for Nagash, also we know how much he loves his elaborate scheming and deception. The Ossiarch battletome however does make out the Bonereapers to be (in terms of a conventional army), near invincible. If they really are the seemingly near totally invulnerable, unstoppable force they are said to be now is the time to prove it, especially with the (or at the very least one of) greatest Generals ever.

On a personal note Chaos winning maintains the status quo pretty much which is not very interesting. Death could rise as the true big bad of the Age of Sigmar which would have major repercussions going forward.

[Scurvydog]

I also think there is some greater plan at work, but if anyone could do some real damage sieging the eightpoints it would be the forces of Nagash, especially the bonereapers. 

Why? Because of how they function, they use bones as raw material to build and repair all aspects of their forces, any lost ground by chaos gives the reapers free reign to harvest both their own fallen and the bones of the enemy (which probably outnumbers them from all the mad cultist hordes) and they will simply rebuild and build even more forces. They never need rest, never need sleep and have mobile artellery and siege monsters, that is a pretty terryfing foe to have at your gates!

While Katakros was just a simple spirit he fought the forces of Nagash to  standstill, then he got elavated to Mortarch but lost in a 1v1 to Sigmar himself, but did hold for some time first. That was before recent times as he has received another power boost and a new more powerful forged body, now recall that he did hold for some time in a 1v1 against Sigmar before that upgrade. A shortstory in the tome also mentions how he effortlessly cuts down a lord of change, mostly as a nuisiance to him, so this guy is not a pushover at all. I know people say "old stuff good, new stuff bad!", but let's take a minute to appreciate everything is new here, new narratives, new characters, we are just getting started, please allow the writers some room to breathe and create things, not just reiterate the same old things.

Ultimately it will probably not amount to all that much, maybe Katakros will get a foothold at best, maybe Gordrakk will show up and kick Archaon in the jibblies.

[EccentricCircle]

I think the key thing is that this is a siege, not a pitched battle. We know that both armies are some of the most powerful in the realms, so I don't believe that either has the strength to win outright on the basis of that strength alone. Katakros cannot take the city by storn, when there is no limit to the daemons who can be summoned against him. However Arcaeon will struggle to break the sieges, when the undead can make more troops from the bones of the dead. Thus I think this war will be won or lost on logistics, rather than than strength of arms. Katakros's army is entirely undead, they do not have supply lines, they do nit need food or rest. E en if the forces of chaos cut them off they can endure. They are masters of siege craft, and patient as death itself. If this were any other city then winning would only be a matter of time.

But it's not any other city. It's the Chaos capital, and so it's defenders are not all mortal either. Do we know how the Varanspire is supplied? Is it self sufficient, where are it's farms, how does it recieve tribute from it's slaves and vassal states? 

The key thing is maybe what fraction of Archaon's forces need food. Maybe not all of the senior Chaos Warriors di, but the bulk of his force aren't elite demigods. They are mauraders, beastmen and the warcry guys and gals. They are mortal, and they need supplies that the u dead don't.

You can summon daemons to reinforce your walls, but you can't eat them. Even crazy cannibal chaos warriors can't eat the undead, but the undead can replenish their numbers from the bones of the slain. Note that the bones of generations of would be chaos warriors already lifted the ground around Archaon's fortress.

Further more, the forces of chaos are by their nature chaotic. After a while they will turn on each other, when they feel the crunch those cannibals will start to think that their comrades look rather tasty. The more daemons you summon, and sorceries you hurl at the enemy then the more mutation will spread, and the more chaos spawn will run amok. Starving cultist s might even try to desert and take their chances in the Realm of Chaos. 

In short, I think if Katakros can hold the siege fir long enough, the chaos forces will turn upon themselves and the city will fall despite the brilliance of its commanders and all its strength at arms. The question thus is, can the undead effectively cut off its supply lines, or will the large number of realm gates make that impossible? 

Its all about those supply lines. 

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, PraetorDragoon said:

Its Nagash, so its the Skaven Accidential Sabotage(tm). 

Don’t rule out manfred or teclis in that case. Manfred has been least accidental in his thwarting of Nagash’s plan out of those three 😂

[Kramer]

23 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

nd they will simply rebuild and build even more forces. They never need rest, never need sleep and have mobile artellery and siege monsters, that is a pretty terryfing foe to have at your gates

Which is all true of the numberless hordes of deamons archaon has a direct access to through the varanspire. 
 

24 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Ultimately it will probably not amount to all that much, maybe Katakros will get a foothold at best, maybe Gordrakk will show up and kick Archaon in the jibblies

But you are very right that the writers need, and now have more than ever, room to move the story forward. So the status quo should change because of this. 

also I personally hope gordrak kicks them both in the Jibblies and then kicks down the doors on excelsis. 

[Dragobeth]

2 hours ago, PraetorDragoon said:

Its Nagash, so its the Skaven Accidential Sabotage(tm). 

I'll feel kinda dissapointed if Skaven don't ****** up Death plans AGAIN, for me it's one of my favourite things.

[PraetorDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Dragobeth said:

I'll feel kinda dissapointed if Skaven don't ****** up Death plans AGAIN, for me it's one of my favourite things.

He really needs to make an undead ratcatcher faction.

[HorticulusTGA]

The Ossiarch Bonereapers Battletome itself said Archaon is the equal of Katakros AND Nagash BOTH. 

Seeing how that whole "Age of Myth devolves into the Age of Chaos" business went out, we know Archaon is far superior to them all (his humble debuts as Priest of Sigmar and Be'lakor's pawn being now totally irrelevant seeing what he did accomplish in the following millennia). 

[MitGas]

27 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

The Ossiarch Bonereapers Battletome itself said Archaon is the equal of Katakros AND Nagash BOTH. 

Seeing how that whole "Age of Myth devolves into the Age of Chaos" business went out, we know Archaon is far superior to them all (his humble debuts as Priest of Sigmar and Be'lakor's pawn being now totally irrelevant seeing what he did accomplish in the following millennia). 

Shhh, don't say that - OBR fans are apparently as whiny as Nagash.

That said, Archaon's also the king of meh.

Getting lots of HAYTE for this but I did enjoy back in old WHFB that not every single battle revolved around the same 10 dudes and dudettes... It feels like Sigmar, Archaon, Katakros with his daddy Nagash, Teclis, Morathi, Alarielle and Malerion and Gotrek are the only sentient inhabitants of the Mortal Realms in 99% of the stories these days. A bit less dramatic hyperbole might be good.

[NJohansson]

Archaon vs Nagash was a total win for Archaon. Archaon vs Sigmar resulted in Sigmar losing his hammer (win for Archeon). Without any form of extra twist the Allpoints should be impossible for any one to take.

[Scurvydog]

4 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

Archaon vs Nagash was a total win for Archaon. Archaon vs Sigmar resulted in Sigmar losing his hammer (win for Archeon). Without any form of extra twist the Allpoints should be impossible for any one to take.

Agreed, there is no way the story goes that the reapers just show up and are succesful all by themselves. Something else needs to happen, Nagash is neither impatient or stupid, he will not just send his elites to all crumble at the gates of an impenetrable fortress. They might play the "But nagash has a huge ego!" card, but that owuld be beyond bad writing. 

Something else must be going on, I suspect Nagash has somethinf else up his sleeve or he will just look stupid, even if some other unexpected events occurs, it would still make Nagash and Katakros look foolish.

20 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Shhh, don't say that - OBR fans are apparently as whiny as Nagash.

That said, Archaon's also the king of meh.

Getting lots of HAYTE for this but I did enjoy back in old WHFB that not every single battle revolved around the same 10 dudes and dudettes... It feels like Sigmar, Archaon, Katakros with his daddy Nagash, Teclis, Morathi, Alarielle and Malerion and Gotrek are the only sentient inhabitants of the Mortal Realms in 99% of the stories these days. A bit less dramatic hyperbole might be good.

Even enjoying the reapers, I doubt anyone would think Archaon to not be the ultimate challenge and probably impossible without something extraordinary happening. Funny enough I only see people whining about the Bonereapers, not the other way around.

But yes, a lot of story content does center around the gods/demigods, AoS so far is heavily inspired by real world mythology and how many stories centered around all the specific gods, that we still see a lot of norse and greek mythology being used actively today, is proof how timeless and efficient these types of tales are.

I would recommend some black library reading, there are plenty of interesting stories about characters far lower on the foodchain. Soul Wars is a sort of middle ground I liked too, yes both Nagash and Sigmar do make appearances in the story and are important, but the main characters are much more grounded and explores far more relatable issues and challenges and some real human relations and heartbreaking moments.

I do hope to see the story progress with this, as it really makes AoS far more interesting, although we will quickly start to experience the issue of no major characters being truly in danger, as long as the model is on the shelf at least, which is of course always the case when stories are made to sell products and not the other way  around.

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

Agreed, there is no way the story goes that the reapers just show up and are succesful all by themselves. Something else needs to happen, Nagash is neither impatient or stupid, he will not just send his elites to all crumble at the gates of an impenetrable fortress. They might play the "But nagash has a huge ego!" card, but that owuld be beyond bad writing. 

Something else must be going on, I suspect Nagash has somethinf else up his sleeve or he will just look stupid, even if some other unexpected events occurs, it would still make Nagash and Katakros look foolish.

Even enjoying the reapers, I doubt anyone would think Archaon to not be the ultimate challenge and probably impossible without something extraordinary happening. Funny enough I only see people whining about the Bonereapers, not the other way around.

But yes, a lot of story content does center around the gods/demigods, AoS so far is heavily inspired by real world mythology and how many stories centered around all the specific gods, that we still see a lot of norse and greek mythology being used actively today, is proof how timeless and efficient these types of tales are.

I would recommend some black library reading, there are plenty of interesting stories about characters far lower on the foodchain. Soul Wars is a sort of middle ground I liked too, yes both Nagash and Sigmar do make appearances in the story and are important, but the main characters are much more grounded and explores far more relatable issues and challenges and some real human relations and heartbreaking moments.

I do hope to see the story progress with this, as it really makes AoS far more interesting, although we will quickly start to experience the issue of no major characters being truly in danger, as long as the model is on the shelf at least, which is of course always the case when stories are made to sell products and not the other way  around.

Said Gods usually didn't involve huge armies in their fights though (a notable exception would be Troy). I just feels like it's less about the player's army now and more about GW's token characters and they shouldn't be the focus IMO. Wouldn't hurt to make some things a bit smaller so that the HUGE events then really stick out. Plus: with our armies just being a couple of dudes, it's not like we really portray those GIGANTIC battles they're always writing about. Hence it feels a bit disconnected. Hope you get what I'm trying to say here, I'm probably too stupid to find the right words.

[Scurvydog]

24 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Said Gods usually didn't involve huge armies in their fights though (a notable exception would be Troy). I just feels like it's less about the player's army now and more about GW's token characters and they shouldn't be the focus IMO. Wouldn't hurt to make some things a bit smaller so that the HUGE events then really stick out. Plus: with our armies just being a couple of dudes, it's not like we really portray those GIGANTIC battles they're always writing about. Hence it feels a bit disconnected. Hope you get what I'm trying to say here, I'm probably too stupid to find the right words.

Yes the focus is indeed more on characters than factions, but these characters are almost the factions themselves and embody that. It is a hard balance, even warhammer fantasy was very similar, most major events for high elves had Teclis or Tyrion involved, Dark elfs always had Malektih and Morathi, the empire had a few characters such as Karl Franz, Boris Todbringer and Volkmar. We just traded 2-3 faces of a faction to 1 god/demigod being the face of a faction now.

I can see that warhammer fantasy had some differences, as these characters were more grounded in the world, where many characters interact closely with the world, their troops and other characters, while AoS seems a bit more like the chess game of the gods and then everything else. 

I don't think that needs to be all bad, but maybe some focus should be put on the more grounded characters, because there are many of them still and new ones being created, just not much is being done with them, although death is a tiny bit of the exception as their new major characters have already done some major splashes, Olynder taking on the celestant prime and then freeing Katakros shows how she is not a pushover, and Katakros seems to be written into a quite competetent player in the realms.

Actually this is why I quite enjoy the death factions, I think Nagash and his mortarchs is some of the more well written elements in AoS, with some interesting plot elements being both presented and hinted at. Like the Soulblight mortarchs having questionable motives, Nagash forcing Olynder into a mockery of a marriage with the Craven king as punishment for both and much more, so many fun and interesting things to explore. I do not think the other factions enjoy quite so much background yet and I think AoS will feel a lot more complete once they do.

Even stormcast keeps getting new characters intorduced in novels, just to throw them to the side and major characters are not used all that much. That there is a trend to have only characters from 1 host in the books also limits what can be done here. The most direct comparison would be to space marines, where we have quite a few notable characters from various chapters who are far more fleshed out, while still having the primarchs which sort of work like the demigods of AoS does right now.

[Neverchosen]

I think that Katakros is going to take most of the Allpoints/Eightpoints and make headways into the Varanspire itself. I think there will be continued resistance within the Varanspire but that Katakross will have effectively taken over as its ruler. I feel that there needs to be consequences for the lore always indicting that Archaon rules on the frontline while leaving his base of operation in lesser hands. Furthermore, in a campaign book about siege warfare that is largely centred on Chaos, I assume there will need to be missions in which they are the defenders (Katakros initial attack) and the attackers (the titular Wrath of the Everchosen). I also assume that Katakros knows that Archaon could take him in a fair fight and that is why he attacks when Archaon's focus is elsewhere.

I also hope that Be'lakor is involved in stabbing Archaon in the back, and that the Legion of the Dark Prince can make use of traitorous Varanguard (even if I cannot personally afford the models). I also assume that this will keep Chaos and Death preoccupied when Gordrakk besieges Azyr, which will have its own campaign book and possibly introduce the Giant faction.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Neverchosen

[JPjr]

More on the book, plus do you think the artist here was told to maybe downplay Katakros's godbeast of a codpiece...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/29/why-you-need-to-read-wrath-of-the-everchosengw-homepage-post-1/

[Harioch]

1 hour ago, Neverchosen said:

I also hope that Be'lakor is involved in stabbing Archaon in the back, and that the Legion of the Dark Prince can make use of traitorous Varanguard (even if I cannot personally afford the models). I also assume that this will keep Chaos and Death preoccupied when Gordrakk besieges Azyr, which will have its own campaign book and possibly introduce the Giant faction.

I also think the mysterious ally (..a word losely used here) is Belakor. With the hint of an allegence made of demon in the book I can't see him not coming but I might be wrong. Also as a demon prince he can't be killed for ever and even exists in both GW settings ala Skarbrand or Kairos. So there is that...

[Neverchosen]

@HariochI hadn't considered him for the ally role, as I always viewed Be'lakor as Chaos' answer to Starscream, but that would be a really awesome use for the character. I have also always wanted to buy his model and now that I have returned to Warhammer after a very long hiatus I am excited to finally get my grubby claws on him... although, I am  a touch daunted by his resin wings.

[NJohansson]

30 minutes ago, Harioch said:

I also think the mysterious ally (..a word losely used here) is Belakor. With the hint of an allegence made of demon in the book I can't see him not coming but I might be wrong. Also as a demon prince he can't be killed for ever and even exists in both GW settings ala Skarbrand or Kairos. So there is that...

In the preview it explicitly states that Archeon went looking for Slaanesh so the mysterious alley is sort of semi spoiled. Unless there are several. Be’lakor has always wanted Archeons place so he would likely rather see him fail and die - then Be’lakor can focus on retaking the mortal world - after all what is another couple of thousand years to a being that is the first daemon prince (older than any one bar the Chaos Goods).

[Thiagoma]

I think that the whole twist is that if Death gets a foothold on 8 Points and Archeon moves to engage, the other gates will be not so heavily protected and allow for other invasions, splitting Chaos forces and leading to the new chapter in AoS lore.

 

Maybe the sheer pressure will force Archeon into finding Slanesh so he can reclain the 8 points, who knows?

[HollowHills]

Joke answer - Grimgor Ironhide 

Serious answer - Archaon wins 100%. He smashed up Nagash who is a so called "god" so therefore would beat a general created by Nagash. Also Archaon literally destroyed a planet and has only gotten stronger since then it seems. He beat Sigmar up and is seemingly on a similar if not greater level of power in the AoS setting. When it comes to combat prowess I don't think there is a single individual stronger than Archaon in the setting.

How it will go - GW doesn't want to ****** off all the death players who have become OBR fan boys over night due to their op rules. At the same time they don't want to ****** off the chaos players who are buying a book specifically marketed towards them. Plus chaos can't actually lose the eight points because then GW would have to explain where Archaon and the chaos armies have all moved to and it would mess up Warcry. 

So this means  (as others have called) you get a quite boring story where OBR win a lot of early victories, then inevitably Archaon shows up and wins. It will end with a note to pacify death players that they got a death artefact / secret objective / foothold that means it was all worth it. 

 

 

[Neverchosen]

I don't see why people are down on the Ossiarch's getting a foothold or any sort of power in the Allpoints. That seems like a major victory allowing Nagash easier access to the realms and also destabilizing Archaon's hold. Yes it is a baby step compared to Katakros killing Archaon. But I would be more upset if the main villain was just killed just for the sake of progressing the narrative and making the new guys seem tough.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Neverchosen

[MitGas]

18 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Joke answer - Grimgor Ironhide 

Serious answer - Archaon wins 100%. He smashed up Nagash who is a so called "god" so therefore would beat a general created by Nagash. Also Archaon literally destroyed a planet and has only gotten stronger since then it seems. He beat Sigmar up and is seemingly on a similar if not greater level of power in the AoS setting. When it comes to combat prowess I don't think there is a single individual stronger than Archaon in the setting.

How it will go - GW doesn't want to ****** off all the death players who have become OBR fan boys over night due to their op rules. At the same time they don't want to ****** off the chaos players who are buying a book specifically marketed towards them. Plus chaos can't actually lose the eight points because then GW would have to explain where Archaon and the chaos armies have all moved to and it would mess up Warcry. 

So this means  (as others have called) you get a quite boring story where OBR win a lot of early victories, then inevitably Archaon shows up and wins. It will end with a note to pacify death players that they got a death artefact / secret objective / foothold that means it was all worth it. 

 

 

So very wise for an aelf.  

[Ben]

I wouldn't be surprised to see one of the Chaos Gods turn against Archaon in an effort to further their own power struggle.