Katakros VS Archaon who would win?

[JPjr]

13 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

But I would be more upset if the main villain was just killed just for the sake of progressing the narrative and making the new guys seem tough.

The eternal problem with named characters. A much as we all like to see the story move forward it would be a remarkably bold decision by Games Workshop to announce on the last page of the book that either Katakros or Archaon, or even both, had bought the farm and you were no longer allowed to use their respective hundred quid models in games anymore and in fact you were now required by lore to buy a £25 Warhammer branded hammer to smash them into little pieces.

[Neverchosen]

@JPjr That is why I prefer named characters that can either be built as alternate units or proxy for alternate units. I think it is great that Volturnous can be an Akhelian King or Arch-Kavalos Zandtos can be built as a Liege-Kavalos. Despite being different models, I will gladly allow someone proxy Gotrek as a Doomseeker or Lord Kroak as a regular Slann. But it gets tricky when the army does not have an easy alternative as with characters such as Archaon, Lady Olynder or the Celestant-Prime. It is interesting that they just alleviated this concern with Brokk Gurngsonn and the Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit. 

Sometimes I just want my Lord of Change to have two heads with none of the fear of contradicting the lore of Karios Fateweaver. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Neverchosen

[Kirjava13]

52 minutes ago, JPjr said:

The eternal problem with named characters. A much as we all like to see the story move forward it would be a remarkably bold decision by Games Workshop to announce on the last page of the book that either Katakros or Archaon, or even both, had bought the farm and you were no longer allowed to use their respective hundred quid models in games anymore and in fact you were now required by lore to buy a £25 Warhammer branded hammer to smash them into little pieces.

Let's face it, that wouldn't be too far off-brand for the company that convinced us that a plastic tub of sand cost a tenner.

[Acid_Nine]

You know the timing is weird for this whole event, according to the article. Archeon finally thinks he knows where the aelven gods hid Slaanesh, and suddenly Katakros invades the eight points?

look i'm not saying the Varanspire was an inside job, but the two events are lining up fairly well in order to keep slaanesh away from the main stage... who knows, maybe teclis is back to the trickery he shown during the end times, Or Malerion has a deal with Nagash... who knows?

[Public Universal Duardin]

6 hours ago, JPjr said:

The eternal problem with named characters. A much as we all like to see the story move forward it would be a remarkably bold decision by Games Workshop to announce on the last page of the book that either Katakros or Archaon, or even both, had bought the farm and you were no longer allowed to use their respective hundred quid models in games anymore and in fact you were now required by lore to buy a £25 Warhammer branded hammer to smash them into little pieces.

In the old days of WHFB had characters like Marius Leitdorf who were Very Dead by the "current year" of the setting, so it is not without precedent to have dead namesd characters as models.

 

However, for all the talk of GW not being bound by the setting anymore and being free to move the narrative forward as they wish, I expect the campaign to end with Nagash running to cry in his netherworld basement and Archaon being unable to perform a counter-attack to Shyish due to Skaven drilling their gnawhole through the sewage piping of Eightpoints and Archaon has to mop it all up before the Nurgle warbands get too excited...or another completely avoidable event that exists simply to preserve the status quo, because GW only moves the narrative forward if they have minis ready to sell.

Unless, of course, Teclis is the ally and Lumineth ARE the models ready to being sold which would be a really cool way to end it all with a surprise.

 

[Overread]

Or perhaps Slaanesh doesn't want to be freed by Archeon. We know that Slaanesh is already toward his own release and his own demons work hard (at least some do) to find and release their god. There's ample reason that a Chaos God would not wish to be released by an upstart mortal turned demonic warleader. Don't forget Slaanesh likely has little concept of "time" and even if he did he is a Chaos God and the prison he's within isn't killing him, just sucking his belly dry of copious souls (and there's no hint that the bounty is running anywhere near dry even after all these generations). So whilst it annoys it doesn't mean that the Prince of Excess is in any way in need of panic to be rescued by another force. 

 

That said Nagash wants the Eightpoints, its a key staging ground and of all the non-chaos forces and gods, Nagash DOES want to rule all. Taking the Eightpoints would be a major thing for him so he likely has many agents keeping an eye on it as best they can. The Warleader and a big block of his army being away would very much prompt Nagash to take action and strike as hard and fast as he can. Even if he fails, it might weaken Chaos's hold on the eightpoints. Nagash might even score a segment of land for himself to use for a staging ground for further invasions to push deeper. Just securing the Realmgate itself would be a major boon, and also means that Nagash has protected his own realm from invasion from the Eightpoints (at least through the main gate). 

So there doesn't have to be any layered plot, only the slightest chance that Archeon had found something of importance just before he got summoned back.

 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Katakros, because he has the power of friendship. Did you not see how many peeps are in his entourage? Archaon has what, a three headed demon monstrosity?

[NJohansson]

14 hours ago, JPjr said:

The eternal problem with named characters. A much as we all like to see the story move forward it would be a remarkably bold decision by Games Workshop to announce on the last page of the book that either Katakros or Archaon, or even both, had bought the farm and you were no longer allowed to use their respective hundred quid models in games anymore and in fact you were now required by lore to buy a £25 Warhammer branded hammer to smash them into little pieces.

Fully agree with this. One of the reasons why I stopped playing Malifaux (a fantastic game system btw) was that they killed of a master (model leading an army) from each faction and hade one more master change faction. The result was that for me I suddenly went from two to zero playable factions (I was unlucky that 4 of my 5 played masters were affected) in the blink of an eye. While killing Archeon will not be close to the same it would leave a sour taste for anyone who build their army around said centerpiece.

[Jator]

My personal preference would be for Gotrek to appear mid fight, throw some cheesy line like "daddy's here" and stomp both.

What I actually think would happen is that Katakros will secure the Realmgate to Shyish and that will be it.

 Other safe bets (already mentioned in this thread):

- Skaven thwarting Nagash's plans somehow, probably being key at stopping the Bonereapers advance.

- Death will achieve some kind of secret objective/just as planned, like Mannfred snatching something from the Allpoints in the confusion or whatever.

[Heijoshin]

Let's be honest, the cover of the book basically gives it away. It's going to go down like this: 

- Archaon: "I have arrived! Tremble before my -2 Rend Slayer of Kings! Mwahaha!" 

*Mortek Guard look at each other and all start laughing* (see, this is why the Mortek models are all grinning)

Archaon: "Why are you laughing? Why aren't you fearing me!?"

Mortek Hekatos (In what I imagine is an Australian accent) : "yeah nah mate, -2 rend ain't anythin' bloody special. We can get that and we're bloody battleline!"

Archaon: "Wait, what? Well, at least my 3+ save shal-"

Mortek Hekatos: "nah yeah, we have that too"

Archaon: ".....Ok... but I mean I can be healed D3 wou-"

Mortek Hekatos: "Flat 3 for us"

Archaon (In disblief): "...flat...3?"

Mortek Hekatos: "Yeah. Multiple times. And this big bloody dino thing, you know, the one with the spikey balls for hands? That can bring us back to bloody life using the bones of our enemies! Pretty sweet.

Archaon: "That does sound pretty cool actually..."

Mortek Hekatos: "By the way mate, didn't you blow up a planet? Would have thought you'd get some better job perks, what with you meeting your targets and all that."

Archaon: "Right!? All I got for it was that three headed monster-thing. It's a nightmare to look after. And the Eight Points? Let me tell you, the rent is through the roof."

Mortek Hekatos: "Tell you what, you give me your résumé and I'll put in a good word with my boss. Heck, you pass your probation and they may even promote me to a Liege! Win-win for both of us! Can't promise anything though and if you join, it'll only be as a trainee at first. You any good at holding scrolls? We recently did a big recruitment drive, so we've already got plenty of -2 rend 3+ save peeps as it is, but I reckon you'll rise up the ranks quicker than a bloody kangaroo" 

Archaon: "What's a kangaroo?"

Mortek Hekatos: "No idea, just came to mind. Anyway, we got a deal?"

Archaon: "Deal"

*Archaon gives the keys to Eight Points*

And so, filled with resentment at the Chaos gods for treating him like ******, Archaon joins the forces of OBR so he can get that sweet sweet extra rend (and +1 save). The end. 
____________

It makes perfect sense. Big "oh s**t" twist moment? Check. Everyone is still alive? Check. Fantastic narrative and believable and relatable characters? Check???

Edited January 30, 2020 by Heijoshin

[Kaleb Daark]

15 hours ago, Ben said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see one of the Chaos Gods turn against Archaon in an effort to further their own power struggle.  

Ok Curry...

tell us what you know, and what happens to the Eye of Ed Sheeran?

Does kitbash Nagash's bitsbox army get it as a prize and Arky and his pals have to slum it in a travel lodge instead of the 5* eight points which will have a new  entrance gate the shape of Nagash's big hat?

 

Or alternatively perhaps there's a stale mate and Arky gets really upset when (because he can't win and it's not like he's going to grow old) Currykos decides, without planning permission to rise up BonePoints - a massive fortress on the other side of the road to Eightpoints and block Arky's nice view.

Bonepoints will be available to buy in modular form as per the Chaos dreadhold and was cheekily teased in the BoneReapers pre-release introduction where everyone said nah it's not a thing.

Arky will therefore have to have wars with Currykos about things like chariot parking, and walking seige engines flytipping bone everywhere and complain that the bins aren't being collected frequently enough.

He will also be trying to work out how to take the walls down, and dream about a set of guidelines he could use to besiege his calorie deficient neighbour -

"oh woe is me...  if only I had a chaos dwarf hell cannon"

"in fact, if only I had the little pyromaniac loony tunes to rock up and just lay seige to the dry easily flammable pile o' bones and run through the massed ranks of silly grins with a huge comedy lava and steam driven Warhammer Acme forge tenderiser on wheels... that'll learn 'em " he will say..

 

then just as Arky is starting to get really short of patience, his many eyed gaunt summoner pulls a cheeky curveball at him and tells him that through space and time there are mighty armoured giants called warlords and see themselves as god engines .. and if he wanted they could try opening a gate to the alternate reality and get one in for him to try out as they would be amazing in seige situation - especially as "you aint got no hell cannons any more me old world crumbling fruity"

At this point what he doesn't realise is that Manfred von Shotmesseninderfootstein is huddled up with his new bff the greyseer gnawnugget Planskuttler and they scheme to ****** up the gaunt summoner's attempt at opening the great void by rewiring his eyeballs so he looks in all the wrong directions.

In so doing and talking utter garbage he confuses the Eye of Ed Seeran who takes its.. er eye off the ball for a split second, giving the unlikely chuckle brothers of calamity the opprtunity to short circuit the whole plan,  and instead opens a rift through which some giants the size of imparial knights walk through thinking... "this doesn't look like the beach holiday painting that was in the Hammerhal Herald that we paid for".

 

Bemoaning cheap package holidays they mistake the Bonepoints as an all inclusive buffet, realise its a bit rubbish as there's no meat on the bones and duly lose their sh-tuff.

The book ends with Arky facepalming himself thinking.."here we go again", and Currykos wondering at the stupidity of the biggest giants he's ever seen trying to eat the walls of his Bonepoints because they look like a rack of ribs despite there obviously isn't any meat on  anything.

 

Amidst all of this, nobody notices a lone peasant fleeing into the realmgate to Azyr - who is instantly (mistakenly) reforged into a prime as all anyone saw was that in the middle of all that lot he survived unscathed and was obviously a mighty warrior and warleader of legions.

 

Am I somewhere close?

[Twisted Firaun]

4 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Ok Curry...

tell us what you know, and what happens to the Eye of Ed Sheeran?

Does kitbash Nagash's bitsbox army get it as a prize and Arky and his pals have to slum it in a travel lodge instead of the 5* eight points which will have a new  entrance gate the shape of Nagash's big hat?

 

Or alternatively perhaps there's a stale mate and Arky gets really upset when (because he can't win and it's not like he's going to grow old) Currykos decides, without planning permission to rise up BonePoints - a massive fortress on the other side of the road to Eightpoints and block Arky's nice view.

Bonepoints will be available to buy in modular form as per the Chaos dreadhold and was cheekily teased in the BoneReapers pre-release introduction where everyone said nah it's not a thing.

Arky will therefore have to have wars with Currykos about things like chariot parking, and walking seige engines flytipping bone everywhere and complain that the bins aren't being collected frequently enough.

He will also be trying to work out how to take the walls down, and dream about a set of guidelines he could use to besiege his calorie deficient neighbour -

"oh woe is me...  if only I had a chaos dwarf hell cannon"

"in fact, if only I had the little pyromaniac loony tunes to rock up and just lay seige to the dry easily flammable pile o' bones and run through the massed ranks of silly grins with a huge comedy lava and steam driven Warhammer Acme forge tenderiser on wheels... that'll learn 'em " he will say..

 

then just as Arky is starting to get really short of patience, his many eyed gaunt summoner pulls a cheeky curveball at him and tells him that through space and time there are mighty armoured giants called warlords and see themselves as god engines .. and if he wanted they could try opening a gate to the alternate reality and get one in for him to try out as they would be amazing in seige situation - especially as "you aint got no hell cannons any more me old world crumbling fruity"

At this point what he doesn't realise is that Manfred von Shotmesseninderfootstein is huddled up with his new bff the greyseer gnawnugget Planskuttler and they scheme to ****** up the gaunt summoner's attempt at opening the great void by rewiring his eyeballs so he looks in all the wrong directions.

In so doing and talking utter garbage he confuses the Eye of Ed Seeran who takes its.. er eye off the ball for a split second, giving the unlikely chuckle brothers of calamity the opprtunity to short circuit the whole plan,  and instead opens a rift through which some giants the size of imparial knights walk through thinking... "this doesn't look like the beach holiday painting that was in the Hammerhal Herald that we paid for".

 

Bemoaning cheap package holidays they mistake the Bonepoints as an all inclusive buffet, realise its a bit rubbish as there's no meat on the bones and duly lose their sh-tuff.

The book ends with Arky facepalming himself thinking.."here we go again", and Currykos wondering at the stupidity of the biggest giants he's ever seen trying to eat the walls of his Bonepoints because they look like a rack of ribs despite there obviously isn't any meat on  anything.

 

Amidst all of this, nobody notices a lone peasant fleeing into the realmgate to Azyr - who is instantly (mistakenly) reforged into a prime as all anyone saw was that in the middle of all that lot he survived unscathed and was obviously a mighty warrior and warleader of legions.

 

Am I somewhere close?

You forgot Sigmar looking down on the whole event with jealousy because he cant’ join in on the “GLORIOUS BATTLE!” taking place due to having a boatload of chores to do(such as “keeping Azyr chaos free” and “fix my forge”) ; so he calls up his bud(dies?) Gorkamorka to see if he was down for a game of cards while watching Bloodbowl at Excelsis later, only to find out Gorkamorka had already set up the table and was trying to invite Khorne and Gotrek(in place of Grimnir) for a whole war god party. Teclis, Tyrion, and Malerion try to sneak in only to be beaten to a pulp with a “No Aelves Allowed!” sign to be hung up afterwards while they down copious amounts of Squig beer, Bloodweiser, and Bugman’s xxxxx.

Edited January 30, 2020 by TheR00zle

[TheMuphinMan]

Here's my theory.

Archaon was going to free Slaanesh but was called back to retake the Varanspire. Who benefits most from Slaanesh being imprisoned? What is Nagash's biggest weakness?

Nagash's master plan is to keep Slaanesh imprisoned as part of a deal with the Great Horned Rat. In exchange the Great Horned Rat agreed to give Nagash 5 minutes of peace.

[Euphanism]

I think it's likely that Katakros will succeed in taking control of the Shysh realm gate, thereby denying Archaon access to his realm. Of course neither will 'die' (one is way too story important and the other, uh, is already dead technically) but neither will really win either. 

 

Is Katakros bringing ONLY Ossiarch? Seems like if I were Nagash and I really wanted this to work, I'd give him about a billion skeletons too.

[MitGas]

The Prince of Excess sees his banishment as a painful diet after having fed on all those Aelf souls. I mean he's also Mr. Vain (cue 90s song - and that Mr. is debatable) and we all know he won't shed those extra pounds any other way with his attitude.

[Fairbanks]

Katakros strikes me as the kind of character to see the whole battlefield and make the sacrifice play to lose the battle, but win the war. Yes, he attacks the Allpoints to distract Archaon from Slaanesh (icing on the cake), and he will take and hold a key region (Allpoints). When Archaon inevitably returns to reclaim the parts that Katakros took, Katakros will probably die, closing the Endgate to shut Archaon's easy access to Shyish.

Also, who wins, Katakros or Khorne? One is empowered primarily by bloodshed, while and the other has an army of bone, attacking the guy who has an entire throne made of bone.

[Kaleb Daark]

57 minutes ago, Fairbanks said:

Katakros strikes me as the kind of character to see the whole battlefield and make the sacrifice play to lose the battle, but win the war. Yes, he attacks the Allpoints to distract Archaon from Slaanesh (icing on the cake), and he will take and hold a key region (Allpoints). When Archaon inevitably returns to reclaim the parts that Katakros took, Katakros will probably die, closing the Endgate to shut Archaon's easy access to Shyish.

Also, who wins, Katakros or Khorne? One is empowered primarily by bloodshed, while and the other has an army of bone, attacking the guy who has an entire throne made of bone.

You wait till you see his luggage.

it’ll have loads of little bone feet like the bone version of the disc world luggage.

[MitGas]

With Nagash being the God of Death pretty much and Katakros being undead could he even be killed? Couldn't Nagash just reincarnate him?

So unless Archaon takes him as a prisoner and sends him to the same Betty Ford clinic Slaanesh resides in, Katakros should have no problem, right? 

 

 

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

50 minutes ago, MitGas said:

With Nagash being the God of Death pretty much and Katakros being undead could he even be killed? Couldn't Nagash just reincarnate him?

So unless Archaon takes him as a prisoner and sends him to the same Betty Ford clinic Slaanesh resides in, Katakros should have no problem, right? 

 

 

Unless Archaon feeds him to Dhorgar.   Who knows if the creature would grow fourth, grinning skeletal, head though.

[Kaleb Daark]

7 hours ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

Unless Archaon feeds him to Dhorgar.   Who knows if the creature would grow fourth, grinning skeletal, head though.

or perhaps because he's covered in plot armour, what ends up happening is that Nagash ends up with a pocket dimension inside Dorgar growing and making a new death faction  from all the kills Dorgars swallows until dorgar gets really bad indigestion and does a massive burp , at which point out they all come.

The only tell tale in the mean time is Dorgar's battle armour plates would mutate into a massive massive cod piece .

[Double Misfire]

Be'lakor's just been given a backstory recap on the Warhammer Community site, that makes a big deal of his (one sided) rivalry with Archaon. Anyone else thinks this and his new subfaction foreshadow subversive shenanigans on Be'lakor's part in the events of Wrath of the Everchosen?

Archaon losing, but only because of Be'lakor would be a good way for Katakros to remain undefeated, and for Chaos players to save face with their guy being brought down by his own grand alliance.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/31/lore-belakor-the-first-prince-of-chaosgw-homepage-post-2/

[Allornone]

I bet on a Vigilus ending. Archaon shows to be unstoppable and invincible, but he's just one guy and despite chaos winning everytime he takes the field Katakros outmatches him in a strategic sense. The whole "you can win every battle and still lose the war". 

[Harioch]

This news on Belakor is kind of cool. I always liked him (and way more than Archaon). And i really wish he has a bit of a story in thi book and the narrative of AoS in the future.

Now I imagine a duel with him against Manfred. A reunion of traitors, liars with a lot of hubris .

Belakor:"I was backstabbing the champions and demons of the Dark gods 10000 years before you even existed ! "

Manfred:"Last time I backstabbed someone it took down the previous setting !"

A mysterious voice:"...well..not without a little help from me ..."

Manfred and Belakor :"TECLIS !!"

Edited January 31, 2020 by Harioch

[Ravinsild]

On 1/28/2020 at 2:56 PM, Harioch said:

Seeing Katakros being introduced as the most talented general ever (un)living, I can't see him attacking the Eights Points without a good plan. On a scale of power, Archaon dominate, but on the domain of strategy it's even I guess. On a battlefield, if he faced Archaon, he's doomed, period. But on a scale of a war this important  I think he got something that made him confident enough to attack. Or it is just Katakros trying his best because Nagash commanded him to but he's not really buying it and just do his best:

Nagash : "Attack the Eights Points !"  

Katakros : "But...our armies are just gathering...Shysh is not even completely secured ....and we have no intel..there are many others places that we could..."

Nagash : "Take the Varanspire ! Humiliate the Everchosen like he did to me ! I have spoken !"

Katakros: "All right  ! All right ....."

I mean, being a tactical genius when you're commanded to do dumb things ....you end up doing a mess. 

Anyway, to me if Katakros  miserably lose it will be disapointing because all the recents events in AoS lore led to this apparently (Nagash big plan with Malign Portent, the Necroquake, the Souls war...) and with this build-up I wish for an epic fight and an equally epic conclusion (but I do not hold my hopes high) to push the story forward.  Even if Katakros fail to conquer the Eight Points it can be interesting if he  puts Chaos on it's knees (as a Death fan and wanting more presence for Destruction and Death as major players who doesn't want AoS to be: "Order vs Chaos !...and the other two are in too").

Emphasis mine.... I bet Gordrakk could KRUMP Archaeon and take the eight points. 
 

I am an Ironjawz fan boy though. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Ravinsild

[Ravinsild]

On 1/28/2020 at 8:01 PM, Kadeton said:

The work of a powerful third party making a decisive entry into the conflict.

Please be Gordrakk!