Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1

[Kasper]

It is a combination of things that makes it nasty.

Most teleports are depending on a cast or similar, or you can't redeploy units that are in combat. With Changehost you can just pick 2 units at will and even stuck in combat, leaving your opponent with no counterplay against the mechanic. This on its own probably wouldn't be "too bad" - Seraphon can do it too - But then you factor in all the other stuff Tzeentch has. 

Add in destiny dice to secure a charge after a redeployment/teleport. Horrors being frankly insane right now is yet another layer of madness, especially with the current rules where you can keep bringing Pinks back despite all the Pinks in the unit being dead and there are only Blues/Brims left. Then you have Flamers with 18" reach, which means you simply can't screen/deploy some key units/monsters out of reach on the majority of battleplans.

 

They don't have to neuter all the abilities/units, but stuff like reducing the range on Flamers would do a lot while keeping them interesting and spicy. Making it so you can't bring back Pinks unless there is at least 1 Pink remaining in the unit would do a lot. Changing the redeployment so it has to be within X" of the LoC would do a lot. Etc. 

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Kasper said:

Most teleports are depending on a cast or similar

Ehh I wouldnt say most....Stormcast, Seraphon, Mawtribes via Skal/Hunter, Fyreslayers via Runesmiter, BoC, DoK, now KO, Nighthaunt, LoN(Legion of Night), and Sylvaneth all have build in teleports that dont cost anything other then units/battalions. I probably missed some. The only ones that are dependent are the spell related ones and there is actually fewer of those then the built in/free ones. 

 Even KO now can do the exact same thing. Pull from combat and vanish. The teleporting around isnt the issue. 

I like the idea of reducing range or number of attacks. Maybe adjusting points for Changehost, Flamers, or Pinks

2 hours ago, Kasper said:

Changing the redeployment so it has to be within X" of the LoC would do a lot.

The old Changehost worked like this so that could be a good fix as well.

[Kasper]

4 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Ehh I wouldnt say most....Stormcast, Seraphon, Mawtribes via Skal/Hunter, Fyreslayers via Runesmiter, BoC, DoK, now KO, Nighthaunt, LoN(Legion of Night), and Sylvaneth all have build in teleports that dont cost anything other then units/battalions. I probably missed some. The only ones that are dependent are the spell related ones and there is actually fewer of those then the built in/free ones. 

 Even KO now can do the exact same thing. Pull from combat and vanish. The teleporting around isnt the issue. 

I like the idea of reducing range or number of attacks. Maybe adjusting points for Changehost, Flamers, or Pinks

The old Changehost worked like this so that could be a good fix as well.

I feel like you just took parts of my post out of context and decided to comment on it, why? 

I'll admit I'm not familiar with all of them, but many of them can't be redeployed whilst in combat, or it is some kind of ambush ability from boardedge. 

I don't feel that's a fair comparison at all, since there are multiple ways to counter those plays (deployement, zoning out, putting a certain unit into combat etc. etc.). KO can be countered - If you deal enough damage they can't redeploy. Hell, if you surround their boat and destroy it, they lose not only the boat but the entire unit inside due to lack of space to deploy.

But anyways, as I wrote in the post - 2 free redeployments by themselves might not be the end of the world, despite it being incredibly strong and nobody else got such powerful tools - It is when all the other stuff is layered ontop that creates a monstrosity. 

[NJohansson]

12 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Yes I should have said that. I figured it was a thread about the competitiveness but ill specify next time.

In that case I still stand by my statements lol 

I sort of agree with you that the rest of the other battalions are not for generic all round use - but there are several that can be made to work - even competitively. They are also (IMHO) properly/semi-properly costed/structured in that it actually is a difficult choice between taking a battalion or going without. The Changehost is a bad battalion in that it is idiot proof to take it, almost zero drawbacks compared to all the benefits. 

[SwampHeart]

Tzeentch and KO FAQs are up. 

[Dolomyte]

And not nerfed. Long live three to four months of tzeentch dominance depending on next ghb. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Dolomyte

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Dolomyte said:

And not nerfed. Long live three to four months of tzeentch dominance depending on next ghb. 

Play null deploy - Changehost has almost no counter play to it what so ever. I've played against the two lists that won Heat 1 with Living City and had 0 issues. 

[Dolomyte]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Play null deploy - Changehost has almost no counter play to it what so ever. I've played against the two lists that won Heat 1 with Living City and had 0 issues. 

If I’m going to buy another army to play against them I’ll just buy changehost and hope to win the roll off

Edited February 3, 2020 by Dolomyte

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Dolomyte said:

If I’m going to buy another army to play against them I’ll just buy chanfehost and hope to win the roll off

Terrible solution if you're going to buy an army to deal with them. You're relegating yourself to a 50% win rate at best, better to buy an army with actual tools to deal with them. 

[SleeperAgent]

Saying they weren't nerfed is just flat wrong. Changehost only teleports one unit now. Destiny dice no longer ignore rend or battleshock losses.

 

EDIT: They also clarified you cannot summon Kairos Fateweaver or the Exalted Greater Deamon of Tzeentch.

 

AND big time Mastery of Magic does not change the lower die to higher die if you use destiny dice.

Edited February 3, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[Forrix]

Tzeentch destiny dice are modifiable for save rolls and battleshock and Changehost can teleport 1 unit per turn. Definitely nerfs, not the might as well delete the battletome nerfs people were foaming at the mouth for but nerfs none the less.

[Dolomyte]

Just now, SleeperAgent said:

Saying they weren't nerfed is just flat wrong. Changehost only teleports one unit now. Destiny dice no longer ignore rend or battleshock losses.

If you think the problem with changehost was two teleports and not the fact that’s it’s a one drop battalion with every unit you want to take an option Then sure it was a nerf. I’m still gonna have 20 pinks charging my whole army and locking it up top of 1 every single game 

[SleeperAgent]

Just now, Dolomyte said:

If you think the problem with changehost was two teleports and not the fact that’s it’s a one drop battalion with every unit you want to take an option Then sure it was a nerf. I’m still gonna have 20 pinks charging my whole army and locking it up top of 1 every single game 

If 20 pinks can lock up your whole army with one charge you deployed poorly.

[Dolomyte]

Just now, SleeperAgent said:

If 20 pinks can lock up your whole army with one charge you deployed poorly.

Ok lock up the important part of your army, play the semantics game. It’s great because we  will have data to see whose right over the next few months

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Dolomyte said:

Ok lock up the important part of your army, play the semantics game. It’s great because we  will have data to see whose right over the next few months

I'll take MSU screening for $300 Alex. 

[SleeperAgent]

Just now, Dolomyte said:

Ok lock up the important part of your army, play the semantics game. It’s great because we  will have data to see whose right over the next few months

Yes, tactical players will overcome a new army's gimmick, and complainers will continue to complain.  I mean basic screening has been part of the game since day one.  As has units that prevent retreating. The only problem here is people not willing to change their tactics. If you throw your 400 points of Pinks at my 1-200 chaff screen fine, lock that screen in combat all game. I will go over or around, or even teleport myself with the rest. Its not semantics, its basic tactics.

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Dolomyte said:

Ok lock up the important part of your army, play the semantics game. It’s great because we  will have data to see whose right over the next few months

Does nothing in your army fly? Or function as a screen? 

[Dolomyte]

Alright you guys win it’s fine it’s totally reigned in. See you at the next GT. 

[whispersofblood]

2 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Alright you guys win it’s fine it’s totally reigned in. See you at the next GT. 

I mean... If you've ever 4-1ed there is no way what you described is happening to you. And if it is, you are probably losing to factions way further down the totem pole.

Edited February 3, 2020 by whispersofblood

[Forrix]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 2:58 AM, JPjr said:

I suspect “banning” non-FAQed tomes is the way to go, generally speaking we’re only looking at a delay of a couple of weeks.

i think this weekend though is probably causing a bit more of a brouhaha than usual though because of a perfect storm coming together.

Brand new BT released just before several major events.

Tzeentch players had enough time to find (or just read what others were saying online) the more obvious exploits.

But not enough time for the FAQ to hit it, or other players to figure out any possible counters, or even just how not to walk face first into a curb stomping.

Throw in that it’s an old army, that had previously been competitive and whose major components are also 40K valid, and you probably had an unusual amount of players ready to go straight away.

Finally, if I’m feeling particularly cynical/mischievous/etc I could suggest a lot of the extra rending of clothes, wailing and crying that the end is not so much nigh as here right now comes from the large % of players who thought they could just buy themselves a podium place with a Petrifex Elite build and found their investment turn to Shyishian ash in their mouths.

Really like this post and figured I'd add to the last bit. Going into the tournament weekend Petrifix Elite had a 69% winrate (highest in AoS) and were also becoming the most played faction in AoS. If you were hoping to podium you could expect to face PE, probably multiple times. So I'm sure people tailored their list to fight PE primarily by loading up on high rend attacks and mortal wound output. Neither of which are super useful against Tzeentch in general and against Pink Horrors in particular.

[Dolomyte]

Just now, whispersofblood said:

I mean... If you've ever 4-1ed there is no way what you described is happening to you. And if not it is you are probably losing to factions way further down the totem pole.

I’ve gone 5 and 0. Can I build an army to counter this ? Yes. Can I just run deepkin? Yes. But to build a list focused on dealing with this hamstrings you against others. And if you don’t build a list to counter this you lose without getting to play your army at all. I’m sorry I disagree with you and still think a one drop army that can take the best units in the book and auto charge turn one is a problem. But I do. I’m not mad at you for disagreeing with me and the stats will bear out which of us is right over the next few months.

[SwampHeart]

18 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

I’ve gone 5 and 0.

What events? 

[whispersofblood]

31 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

I’ve gone 5 and 0. Can I build an army to counter this ? Yes. Can I just run deepkin? Yes. But to build a list focused on dealing with this hamstrings you against others. And if you don’t build a list to counter this you lose without getting to play your army at all. I’m sorry I disagree with you and still think a one drop army that can take the best units in the book and auto charge turn one is a problem. But I do. I’m not mad at you for disagreeing with me and the stats will bear out which of us is right over the next few months.

Sure. But Chaos has like ten 1 drop battalions. And, several 2 drops. So I don't really see why that specific attribute is problematic. Now that horrors are much more manageable in the mid and late game I actually think dumping 400 points upfield with limited support (due to one teleport) as a viable strategy. Unless, the opponent leaves the door open with poor deployment. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by whispersofblood

[Dolomyte]

7 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Sure. But Chaos has like ten 1 drop battalions. And, several 2 drops. So I don't really see why that specific attribute is problematic. Now that horrors are much more manageable in the mid and late game I actually think dumbing 400 points upfield with limited support (due to one teleport) as a viable strategy. Unless, the opponent leaves the door open with poor deployment. 

You could be right. The other chaos armies are not built the way tzeentch is and I don’t believe any of them can teleport or deliver the amount of magic and shooting tzeentch can behind it. Again I’m totally on board with all of your thoughts, I just disagree and we can see how the next few months play out. My preferred fix would have been removing flamers from changehost. 

[Sedraxis]

55 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

And not nerfed. Long live three to four months of tzeentch dominance depending on next ghb. 

Yep, there is no doubt in my mind that this is the best army by a pretty big margin right now. The faq fixed the obvious errors, but the raw power of rulestacking and cheap stats all-around is still all to real.

Tournament results will show.