Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1

[SwampHeart]

16 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

Yep, there is no doubt in my mind that this is the best army by a pretty big margin right now.

Best army bar people building lists that exploit it effectively. Again null deploy or just stuff like untamed beasts in chaos armies. 

[Freejack02]

I'm pretty surprised that people are still complaining even after all the broken aspects got addressed. If your complaint lies solely in chucking 20 Pinks down the field - this isn't exactly a unique (or new) strategy; hell Sayl did that for years. Are Horrors still good? Yes. Can a block of Flamers still jump forward and roast something? Probably. Changehost still a 1-drop? Yep. Is any of this going to unbalance Tzeentch and let them run rampant with an 75% winrate? Sure as hell shouldn't. 

[Doko]

Others 5 months with tzenth winning every tournament untill next general handbook as happened with slanesh

[RuneBrush]

Isn't it a little early to be saying the changes aren't enough?  Probably needs a few big events and us to actually play some games first.  Don't get me wrong, Tzeentch is still going to be a strong list, but hopefully the changes/clarifications will bring down that feeling of impossible odds a bit.

[whispersofblood]

14 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Isn't it a little early to be saying the changes aren't enough?  Probably needs a few big events and us to actually play some games first.  Don't get me wrong, Tzeentch is still going to be a strong list, but hopefully the changes/clarifications will bring down that feeling of impossible odds a bit.

Adepticon, and Heat 2 are coming up fast.

[RuneBrush]

8 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Adepticon, and Heat 2 are coming up fast.

They are indeed!  Going to be interesting to see how they play out - could well be that somebody from the AoS studio may be there at the GT again too!

[NJohansson]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Isn't it a little early to be saying the changes aren't enough?  Probably needs a few big events and us to actually play some games first.  Don't get me wrong, Tzeentch is still going to be a strong list, but hopefully the changes/clarifications will bring down that feeling of impossible odds a bit.

At this point everything is speculation. Personally I believe the changes were on the lighter side - things like flamers, Changehost and the Host Duplicitous/Eternal Conflagration will still be super strong. On the other hand - the meta will quickly adjust so there will definitely be more anti shooting lists in the coming tournaments. Will be very interesting to see but Tzeentch still feels like it is a very powerful gunline that will absolutely destroy any list that is not directly geared for handling it.

[swarmofseals]

Haven't followed the discussion since the first two pages, fwiw.

But I think this is a solid set of changes. Teleporting 20 pinks on top of your line is really strong but it's a lot less strong without the super easy battleshock immunity and without being backed up by Flamers teleporting into range as well. Thing is, every other high tier army does things that are really strong. 

Is it possible that this won't be enough and Changehost/Tzeentch with sit at a Slaanesh/Early DoK level of dominance? Yes. It's possible. I don't think it's super likely though. There are plenty of units that can kill 20 pinks in one round of melee, and if the icon bearers go down then suddenly the DD1 will no longer save you from battleshock. 

Tzeentch is going to be very hard for certain factions to beat, but I suspect certain factions will be very hard for Tzeentch to beat. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 hours ago, Dolomyte said:

If you think the problem with changehost was two teleports and not the fact that’s it’s a one drop battalion with every unit you want to take an option Then sure it was a nerf. I’m still gonna have 20 pinks charging my whole army and locking it up top of 1 every single game 

I agree that there are more problems with Changehost, but this play is now a terrible waste of 400 points for the Tzeentch player.

These pinks should crumple on the first turn now. They won’t be benefiting from Locus of Change the whole round and will probably be forced out of Inspiring Presence range.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Sedraxis]

18 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I agree that there are more problems with Changehost, but this play is now a terrible waste of 400 points for the Tzeentch player.

These pinks should crumple on the first turn now. They won’t be benefiting from Locus of Change the whole round and will probably be forced out of Inspiring Presence range.

Yes because every army can just dish out 100+ wounds in 1 turn, especially after being shot at by 60+ 3+ 4+ -1 1 shots and however many flamers you want to get in range. At -1 to hit of course, good thing you also have free reign on objectives too.

Have you never played another tome to notice the difference in power here?

Destiny Dice is one hell of a drug.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Sedraxis

[Sleboda]

6 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

Its not semantics, its basic tactics

Agreed. Just to add to the "it's not semantics" point - it's not semantics when we describe a thing that impacts some things as a thing that affects all things.

 

Words matter, especially in a text-based discussion forum where we can't see faces or hear vocal tone. Using "semantics" as a way dismiss someone pointing out we are wrong is not helpful to discussion.

 

[SwampHeart]

15 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

especially after being shot at by 60+ 3+ 4+ -1 1 shots and however many flamers you want to get in range.

Why is this happening? Changehost is one drop, you're going to know exactly where the flamers are, their exact threat range and you get to compensate for all of that before deploying anything meaningful. 

[Sedraxis]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

Why is this happening? Changehost is one drop, you're going to know exactly where the flamers are, their exact threat range and you get to compensate for all of that before deploying anything meaningful. 

Maybe if the Tzeentch player is nice enough to deploy everything at once instead of drop by drop untill your last one.

And even if you can adjust to it you're still at a disadvantage purely on stats and power. It's an uphill battle at best, or a total and utter defeat upon comparing lists at worst. This should never be allowed to exist.

[NJohansson]

4 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Why is this happening? Changehost is one drop, you're going to know exactly where the flamers are, their exact threat range and you get to compensate for all of that before deploying anything meaningful. 

I agree in principle - in play my opponents (and granted they may not be world class players) have had great difficulties to deploy outside of Flamer range (if I have more than one unit) while not giving away full board control. If my opponent deploys 27” from everything in my army I will simply give them first turn and aim for the double turn (in truth I will do so almost every game if I do not see great alpha strike potential in my opponents list since close to nothing survives a double turn from our guns right now.

[Phasteon]

The Errata fixed everything wrong with Tzeentch as far as I am concerned. 

1) „OH NO 1 DROP IS OP“

I dont care if he is 1-drop or 3-drop when my army has 4+ drops anyway, so thats not a valid argument imo. Someone will always deploy faster and they declared Tzeentch as the „fastest deploying army“ now. Enjoy free counterdeployment after you‘ve seen where his most valuable targets stand. 

2) „HE CAN ALPHASTRIKE EVERYTHING WITHOUT COUNTER HELP!!1“ 

Nope. Just 1 Unit that you can dictate where to land (see 1)) and then clear in return. 18“ on flamers is good, but not enough to target keytargets apart from suicide teleporting them, but without back up now that its only the 1 unit. 

3) „HORRORS TARPIT MY WHOLE ARMY AND NEVER RUN OMG!“ 

Ok, partly still true as they are the cheapest unit in the game wounds per points (correct me if I‘m wrong but 200 for 50 is still nuts, I‘d like them to be around 240-280 - Gaunt Summoner +50p as well)

BUT

With autopass on every destiny dice gone they are much easier to handle, as they have basically no save (or should I say „defense“ as semantics seem to matter here ;-)) aside from number of wounds. 

Before the FAQ I was 100% with all the guys screaming that Tzeentch is broken and ruining the game by how frustrating the mechanics work out. 

But now its fine, everyone still yelling is obviously not good in „theoryhammer“ - those nerfs hit the spot, trust me. 

Changehost got 100% worse (2 to 1)

And Horrors went down in efficiency by a bunch as well (no potential 9 autopasses via destiny) 

If you cant handle a 100 wounds tarpit or whatever else Tzeentch is throwing at you right now you are clearly not fielding a „competitive list“* so you should maybe create a better list first. 

 

*Which is totally fine, but then you should not cry about Tzeentch being still OP, as its just competitive Tzeentch being that strong, a list featuring the same fun choices as your „casual list“ will still be an enjoyable match up after the FAQ. 

 

Just my opinion on the matter. 

 

[Inquisitorsz]

Slightly off topic - 
My only issue with 1 drop armies is that you get full flexibility. 
You ask your opponent how many drops they have, then just match that -1 

So you might end up doing 7 alternating drops, then put down your last 2 units at once and still finish deploying first. 
I really hate that. 

If you're getting the advantage of choosing first turn, you're going to have to put down your whole army and let me counter-deploy properly. 

I'm not even sure if that's how deploying battalions works (I'm usually the guy with 9+ drops). But that's how everyone I've played against does it. 

Back on topic

I'm happy with the Tzeentch changes. I would have perhaps preferred Changehost to cost a CP as most other armies that have a wide open teleport like that have to pay for it. I guess it is a 180pt battalion so maybe that's cost enough? Time will tell I guess. 
I'm just glad Destiny Dice make sense now. 

[Kramer]

7 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

 

Slightly off topic - 
My only issue with 1 drop armies is that you get full flexibility. 
You ask your opponent how many drops they have, then just match that -1 

So you might end up doing 7 alternating drops, then put down your last 2 units at once and still finish deploying first. 
I really hate that. 

 

We might have playing this all wrong around here. But isn’t it: deploy the battalion as a whole OR all as separate drops.

 (because as soon as you deploy elements in your battalion, you can’t deploy the whole battalion because parts of it are already down) 

[Kirjava13]

20 minutes ago, Kramer said:

We might have playing this all wrong around here. But isn’t it: deploy the battalion as a whole OR all as separate drops.

 (because as soon as you deploy elements in your battalion, you can’t deploy the whole battalion because parts of it are already down) 

I agree that this is how it should be, but in the Core Rules, it says:

Quote

During set-up, you can set up some or all of the units from a warscroll battalion at the same time rather than setting up each unit individually.

(No idea if there has been an Errata or Commentary on this.)

I fear this means you are allowed to tease out your deployment and then race to the finish line just ahead of your opponent.

[Phasteon]

21 minutes ago, Kramer said:

We might have playing this all wrong around here. But isn’t it: deploy the battalion as a whole OR all as separate drops.

 (because as soon as you deploy elements in your battalion, you can’t deploy the whole battalion because parts of it are already down) 

I‘m pretty sure a changehost is either 1 drop or 9 drops.

[Inquisitorsz]

30 minutes ago, Kramer said:

We might have playing this all wrong around here. But isn’t it: deploy the battalion as a whole OR all as separate drops.

 (because as soon as you deploy elements in your battalion, you can’t deploy the whole battalion because parts of it are already down) 

Well that's why I asked the question because maybe we've always been doing it wrong.... 

but seeing as it happened to me in every single game at Cancon recently, I just assumed that was normal. 
I'll go hunting for the rules in a minute and see what I dig up. 

Well... I looked through the core rules, GHB2019 and all the relevant errata/FAQ. 
I can't find anywhere that says Battalions can be dropped as a single deployment... and therefore can't find whether or not the units within can be split out during deployment. 

Can anyone point me to the relevant rule? I think maybe this was something in AOS1.0 that people just carried over without realizing it's gone now? Maybe? 
 

EDIT:
Disregard, @Kirjava13 quoted the rule above (Page 240 btw). I'm not sure why my first search through the book didn't find the whole section on warscroll battalions lol. 

Seems pretty clear - "You can set up SOME or all of the units for a battalion at the same time. 

So my original point stands... if you're getting to pick first turn regardless, the opponent should at least get to counter-deploy properly. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Inquisitorsz

[Saodexan]

1 minute ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Well that's why I asked the question because maybe we've always been doing it wrong.... 

but seeing as it happened to me in every single game at Cancon recently, I just assumed that was normal. 
I'll go hunting for the rules in a minute and see what I dig up. 

Well... I looked through the core rules, GHB2019 and all the relevant errata/FAQ. 
I can't find anywhere that says Battalions can be dropped as a single deployment... and therefore can't find whether or not the units within can be split out during deployment. 

Can anyone point me to the relevant rule? I think maybe this was something in AOS1.0 that people just carried over without realizing it's gone now? Maybe? 
 

Core rules p15 ( https://ageofsigmar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/06/AoS_Rules-ENG.pdf )
 

[Sinfullyvannila]

4 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

Yes because every army can just dish out 100+ wounds in 1 turn, especially after being shot at by 60+ 3+ 4+ -1 1 shots and however many flamers you want to get in range. At -1 to hit of course, good thing you also have free reign on objectives too.

Have you never played another tome to notice the difference in power here?

Destiny Dice is one hell of a drug.

Yeah, Stormcast, Ogors and Slaves.

You don’t need to do 100 damage. You need to do 20. You just need to get rid of the icon bearers. Unlike other units, Horrors get harder to keep in Inspiring Presence Range as their effective wounds go down. If you can get them past their icon bearers you won’t be able to bring them back, since they’d need 9 other Pinks to add or return an Icon Bearer. Then they can’t Icon Shenanigan and they’ll be very hard pressed to inspiring presence unless they put their General in an extremely vulnerable situation.

You also don’t have the -1 to hit if a hero isn’t in range. And since you only have 1 TP per turn, you can’t teleport a hero within range of them, so Locus is extremely likely to drop at some point in the round.

Also, you have to choose between Flamers having Rend and not being able to retreat from Pinks.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[NJohansson]

5 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Yeah, Stormcast, Ogors and Slaves.

You don’t need to do 100 damage. You need to do 20. You just need to get rid of the icon bearers.

You also don’t have the -1 to hit if a hero isn’t in range. And since you only have 1 TP per turn, you can’t teleport a hero within range

Once again - I don not think that the sky is falling, a lot of armies have counter play to Tzeentch. Saying that - if you kill even 30 (as in your example) the rest will not just disappear.  Battle Shock will take another 20-30 models but you really need to take out much more to get rid of them. As to inspiring presence and -1 to hit the Tzeentch player can move a disk hero 16 inches forward (so should be in range) but then again killing the hero is always a possibility.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, NJohansson said:

Once again - I don not think that the sky is falling, a lot of armies have counter play to Tzeentch. Saying that - if you kill even 30 (as in your example) the rest will not just disappear.  Battle Shock will take another 20-30 models but you really need to take out much more to get rid of them. As to inspiring presence and -1 to hit the Tzeentch player can move a disk hero 16 inches forward (so should be in range) but then again killing the hero is always a possibility.

I think we’re just disagreeing in degrees. The point is, calling 20 pinks a hard 100 wound check isn’t conveying what they actually are, and it’s pretty easy to get them down below point efficiency if you don’t allow your opponent to place splits by intent. Which I’m pretty sure any other honest Tzeentch player would encourage someone playing against pinks to do.

[Qaz]

27 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

.... don’t allow your opponent to place splits by intent. 

??? Do explain.

Split and Split again (second paragraph): "Set up the additional models one at a time within 1"of the position that the slain model had occupied".

Rare is the occasion where the blues fail to appear. I think you need 4 (32mm) models surrounding a pink for the second blue to failed to be placed.