Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1

[Inquisitorsz]

9 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Thanks for the links!

Also, I really wish more people understood this. People talk about AOS like it's got no skill factor and is terribly dumbed down, and yet there are players who can go to a GT and 4-1 with a ham sandwich. There is a huge skill element to the game that people underestimate in part due to the vast majority of competitive discussion being about listbuilding and not actual gameplay.

I'm not a huge AoS gamer.... I probably go to 1-2 events per year and have a bit of a laugh. But I do play other games competitively. 
I'll say this... there's certainly a skill to AOS. 
However, I do think that armies above the power curve greatly inflate a good player's winrate. And a good player will still struggle against an average player with a strong army. 
A bad player will lose no matter what.  

That being said.... I feel like most of the "skill" in AoS comes more from experience than anything else. Not some sort of tactical or strategic genius but simply from knowing your army and knowing your opponent's ones. There's so much in AOS that's either strong combos or "gotcha" moments. Experienced players may be able to avoid those better than less experienced players (eg. me). 
If I had to put some numbers to it, I think I'd break it down like this   
30% luck, 20% list building, 35% experience, 15% skill 
There's still a massive element of luck, be it dice, or match ups.

I had one game where I failed to unbind all 4 of a Nurgle army massive buffs and got hit by the worlds strongest 15 man chaos knight unit.  Those guys were generating something like 35 mortal wounds on average, in addition to normal damage BEFORE rerolling all hits and wounds, after running and charging (with rerolls), and having a 3+ rerollable armor save. 
Sometimes you just get screwed on luck no  matter what you do.  
  

[Inquisitorsz]

4 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The destiny dice arguments are very poorly thought out.

See above. We have to use 2 dice for 2d6s now. Anything that isn’t a 5, 6 or 1 is almost worthless without a 380 point model, other than in a Battleshock test or avoiding snake eyes on the one charge I cant afford to fail each game. Like, 1/5 of my games I only get a single 5 or 6. And Pinks aren’t just “handled easily” without the Destiny Dice Change, they’d be an essentially be a worthless points trap.

I've heard rumors that the destiny dice stuff won't be changed in the FAQ anyway, so you probably don't have to worry about it. 
I play Tzeentch too and even I find it a bit on the nose. You can still use 2,3,4,5 results for hits or D6 and D3 damage results or as that second dice on casting/charge roll. I think that's what they should be used for. You can still mitigate failing a short charge buy using two 3s or something like that. Those middle dice still have plenty of uses.  

My problem with using those dice on battleshock tests for pink horrors is more to do with pink horrors being a terribly designed unit rather than the destiny dice rules themselves. 

[Daramiz]

10 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The destiny dice arguments are very poorly thought out.

See above. We have to use 2 dice for 2d6s now. Anything that isn’t a 5, 6 or 1 is almost worthless without a 380 point model, other than in a Battleshock test or avoiding snake eyes on the one charge I cant afford to fail each game. Like, 1/5 of my games I only get a single 5 or 6. And Pinks aren’t just “handled easily” without the Destiny Dice Change, they’d be an essentially be a worthless points trap.

I feel like you are underselling how useful this is.

[decker_cky]

Realm of life probably exacerbated the problems, adding 7.5 more wounds per lifeswarm heal.  Not the best place to showcase the book weekend 1.

AFAIK, the most successful lists were a little more conservative in terms of flamers - nobody turned it up to 11 and succeeded.  Flamers have a built-in weakness of being extremely fragile (20 pts per wound, low save).  Hopefully GW doesn't nerf flamers until they're shown to be a problem.

Time seems to have been a  common complaint in dealing with tzeentch. Horrors are probably the biggest time suck, having presence in all phases, and additional time spent replacing models as you take casualties. Before comparing other horde units, important to remember that horrors bring decent to solid shooting, and the unit can natively bring -1 to hit  in melee (with plenty of opportunities to stack that up to -2 or -3 without much investment) which increases the chore of dealing with them.  They would remain a bargain at 250 pts.  Currently they overshadow every other battleline option in the book, unless you are purely focused on having cheap battleline. 

For gaunt summoners, I like the idea of summoning 5 pink horrors over 10 blue  blue horrors.  

Changehost clearly exacerbates a lot of the book's stronger elements and covers for weaknesses. Removing matched play points for changehost should be considered, and may knock everything else into line. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

11 minutes ago, Daramiz said:

I feel like you are underselling how useful this is.

Oh it’s extraordinarily useful that one time each game. Then I have 4 more that aren’t really doing anything.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Sinfullyvannila]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

I've heard rumors that the destiny dice stuff won't be changed in the FAQ anyway, so you probably don't have to worry about it. 
I play Tzeentch too and even I find it a bit on the nose. You can still use 2,3,4,5 results for hits or D6 and D3 damage results or as that second dice on casting/charge roll. I think that's what they should be used for. You can still mitigate failing a short charge buy using two 3s or something like that. Those middle dice still have plenty of uses.  

My problem with using those dice on battleshock tests for pink horrors is more to do with pink horrors being a terribly designed unit rather than the destiny dice rules themselves. 

They definitely have uses, but I hardly think that “being more useful than completely useless” is the threshold for a “plenty powerful allegiance ability”. 

[Saxon]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The destiny dice arguments are very poorly thought out.

See above. We have to use 2 dice for 2d6s now. Anything that isn’t a 5, 6 or 1 is almost worthless without a 380 point model, other than in a Battleshock test or avoiding snake eyes on the one charge I cant afford to fail each game. Like, 1/5 of my games I only get a single 5 or 6. And Pinks aren’t just “handled easily” without the Destiny Dice Change, they’d be an essentially be a worthless points trap.

Because that's all a 380pt model is good for........................

[NJohansson]

People seem to forget that Tzeentch not only won Cancon but that it also came 1-3 GT heat 1 and was 2-4 in one more major tournament all in the first week. Most of it was with changehost and loads of flamers (not so good) but there were also other lists placing high (very positive for the future of the book even if nerfed).
 

The changehost/flamer/20 horror is a very powerful combo. It is also a noob stomper and very very hard to counter. As a comparison - if I would come up against it with my Guild of Summoners list or even a Conflagration (but without changehost) I statistically loose more than a quarter of my army (heroes/flamers - i.e vital models) turn one, with almost nothing that I can do against it and since I lose key pieces it becomes something that is very hard (close to impossible) to recover from. It needs to be changed - hopefully they will just make small adjustments (IMHO) flamers should get -1 to hit, changehost should only be allowed minimum units, Fatemaster only on melee, Destiny dice not unmodifed and flamers not part of the changehost. Still very powerful but most idiotic combos will be gone.

[The World Tree]

 

The Tzeentch issue is about power but it is also bout the experience of playing against it. It is very negative and unenjoyable. People will learn to adapt, but that doesn't make it fun.

[Kramer]

16 hours ago, Eevika said:

By KO treatment I believe they mean the mega nerf to mortars after release of the first book. 

If so, I still stand by my enjoyment of the new book  but I then do get the argument. Although I also got the nerf, apart from it overshooting it’s goal. 

[Phasteon]

What I originally meant by KO treatment was that they got a book with a very strong and thematic mechanic but toned down performance overall to not be frustrating to play against. 

Unlike Tzeentch they didnt get it all. 

[RuneBrush]

OK, controversial suggestion here -

Should TO's consider disallowing Battletomes to be played until they have their associated FAQ document released?

Most events already state that anything released in the last week can be used (new battletomes, FAQs etc), so just extending that to 3 weeks would mean that some of that fine tuning could be undertaken without the new battletome having implications throughout the competitive scene.

Or do we think that allowing this actually helps to highlight when things aren't working?

[NJohansson]

17 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

OK, controversial suggestion here -

Should TO's consider disallowing Battletomes to be played until they have their associated FAQ document released?

Most events already state that anything released in the last week can be used (new battletomes, FAQs etc), so just extending that to 3 weeks would mean that some of that fine tuning could be undertaken without the new battletome having implications throughout the competitive scene.

Or do we think that allowing this actually helps to highlight when things aren't working?

I think it is actually great that we get fast input from high end players. Becomes less of an argument “learn to play“ when it is obvious that there are really strong/to strong synergies. 

[Laststand]

19 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Or this is intended and this will dominate for a little while and people will buy tzeentch to play this and win with it until the next set of changes this summer with GHB 2020.

One thing GW is great at is fueling the chase for the new hotness. 

[JPjr]

45 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Or do we think that allowing this actually helps to highlight when things aren't working?

I suspect “banning” non-FAQed tomes is the way to go, generally speaking we’re only looking at a delay of a couple of weeks.

i think this weekend though is probably causing a bit more of a brouhaha than usual though because of a perfect storm coming together.

Brand new BT released just before several major events.

Tzeentch players had enough time to find (or just read what others were saying online) the more obvious exploits.

But not enough time for the FAQ to hit it, or other players to figure out any possible counters, or even just how not to walk face first into a curb stomping.

Throw in that it’s an old army, that had previously been competitive and whose major components are also 40K valid, and you probably had an unusual amount of players ready to go straight away.

Finally, if I’m feeling particularly cynical/mischievous/etc I could suggest a lot of the extra rending of clothes, wailing and crying that the end is not so much nigh as here right now comes from the large % of players who thought they could just buy themselves a podium place with a Petrifex Elite build and found their investment turn to Shyishian ash in their mouths.

[schwabbele]

I hope I can get my money back for the warscrolls if they change them 😬 just picked up the box last week - no models though 😅 

[JPjr]

6 minutes ago, Laststand said:

One thing GW is great at is fueling the chase for the new hotness. 

Well since they’ve just boosted an army whose winning build is mainly comprised of decade old models guess we’ll have to chalk this up as just another thing GW aren’t apparently actually that great at.

Edited January 28, 2020 by JPjr

[schwabbele]

7 minutes ago, JPjr said:

brouhaha

Made my day 😍 didn’t hear/read that word for ages :))))))

[Sinfullyvannila]

4 hours ago, Saxon said:

Because that's all a 380pt model is good for........................

There is literally nothing I’ve said in this entire thread that suggests Lord of Change is not worth 380 points.

[Dead Scribe]

3 hours ago, Laststand said:

One thing GW is great at is fueling the chase for the new hotness. 

Hey it definitely works and sells!  We have a guy thats already selling his army off to buy this one, despite the warnings of an FAQ.  We have another waiting to see if the faq doesn't hurt them and then will be following suit.  

[RuneBrush]

2 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Hey it definitely works and sells!  We have a guy thats already selling his army off to buy this one, despite the warnings of an FAQ.  We have another waiting to see if the faq doesn't hurt them and then will be following suit.  

Out of curiosity, do you know what those two people's drive is?  Is it that they're hoping to play competitive events, enjoy the more brutal cut and thrust of that style of gaming or something else?

[Sigwarus]

All of you that calls for flamers to change they are maybe the most obvious glasscannon in the game. The die to whatever, even goblin shooting. 

Horrors are good but got nerfed hard with a points raise. 

The big problem is ignoring battleshock on any DD. And the cheap summoner. Other than that tzeentch is fine. They are not even close to the dominance of DoK (at its prime), obr and  slaanesh. Its not that hard to create an anti tz list. Even BoCor goblins could do it. CoS and fyreslayers also.

[SleeperAgent]

3 minutes ago, Sigwarus said:

All of you that calls for flamers to change they are maybe the most obvious glasscannon in the game. The die to whatever, even goblin shooting. 

Horrors are good but got nerfed hard with a points raise. 

The big problem is ignoring battleshock on any DD. And the cheap summoner. Other than that tzeentch is fine. They are not even close to the dominance of DoK (at its prime), obr and  slaanesh. Its not that hard to create an anti tz list. Even BoCor goblins could do it. CoS and fyreslayers also.

I feel like Changehost making the army one drop and giving two teleports with no dice roll is the only problem.

[Dead Scribe]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Out of curiosity, do you know what those two people's drive is?  Is it that they're hoping to play competitive events, enjoy the more brutal cut and thrust of that style of gaming or something else?

They are both solid 100% tournament players.  Most of my group is and most of my group regularly sells off their armies to buy whatever is currently mathematically considered superior by the rules (stats, points efficiency etc).

[Frowny]

I think my bigger frustration with tzeentch is some of the other rules. Acolytes with like 3 weapon profiles that all don't do much damamge, tzaangors with 4 , and then all the fiddly special rules like the scroll and the vulture. It's just kinda annoying for the active player to figure out, a lot of little annoying rules to keep track of but yet overall isn't that impactful. I wish those warscrolls were streamlined a bit more. It didn't really seem that fun for either player.

Horrors for all their strength and annoyingness go play against at least have a very well written warscroll. Whenever I had a question we just looked and there it was.